"A free thinker is Satan's slave"

[Dragon]

Koshergrl's argument, quoted above, is not only circular but also fails for the same reason I stated: it depends on the word of human beings, living and dead, who are themselves fallible. Christians have no other reason to believe that the Bible is God's word, except that other people have said so. And those other people were human and fallible, and given the extreme unlikelihood of what they are claiming, very likely wrong.

 

[Newby]

Such as? You make very broad statements, which are complete assumptions

Oh, come on. I'm not talking about some dead religion known only through archaeological relics and speculation. "Complete assumption" my ass.

If you really want to pretend ignorance about the tenets of traditional Christianity, fine. Here are some of the things I mean:

1) Holding spiritual beliefs outside the bounds of Christian orthodoxy.
2) Not believing in God.
3) Failing to keep the sacraments. (Depends on the denomination, of course.)
4) Feeling sexual desire for anyone who is not one's spouse.
5) Feeling desire for any property that does not belong to one.
6) Feeling anger at a personal slight or injury.

There are many more, of course. All of these are problematical, but the first is particularly odious, and the teaching that puts the mind in chains.

When's the last time you attended any christian service or studied the Bible through the eyes of a Christian, i.e. trying to learn from it rather than being biased against it?

And let's take your list, half of them are upheld by anyone with any moral compass, religiously based or not. Would your spouse be okay with you holding sexual desire for anyone other than them, regardless of their religious beliefs or lack thereof? And you're suggesting that you're not 'free' unless you can do those things on your list? Also, being a christian is a personal choice, you are 'free' to not be a christian if you don't believe what it is teaching. So, you're expression that 'christians don't believe in freedom' is ridiculous. How do you see the government as being any different than religion? The government in today's age is a far bigger threat to your 'freedom' than any religious doctrine. You have no chioce in obeying what laws the government puts down, you are free to practice or not practice any religion you like, at least for now.

 

[Newby]

"Slaves to Satan" is another way of saying that they challenge dogma, and the authority by which traditional Christians would bind and chain freedom. In fact, Satan is another link in that chain, and it's traditional Christians, not free thinkers, who are slaves to Satan: they live in fear of him, and of Hell, and tremble in their cages of dogma, afraid to open the cage door.

Traditional Christianity is about slavery. It's a system of slavery, and one becomes free by stepping outside its limits and boundaries.

You are off the deep end dude... seriously...

 

[Newby]

I don't care what you say you consider yourself. A freethinker is an atheist.

Atheists do not have a monopoly on free thinking.

LOL that's certainly true, but I have to say koshergrl's statement is making my point for me.

An atheist, of course, is someone who does not believe in God or gods. A free thinker is someone whose thinking isn't bound by dogma. Obviously those are not identical concepts.

For everyone's information, I'm a Pagan. I have opinions about the nature of deity and divinity that are unconventional and would take too long to go into on this thread if I could even explain them, but I certainly believe that the Gods exist. So no, I am not an atheist.

Not that it really matters. The point here would be the same even if I were.

So there are no rules to follow in Paganism? No specific belief system? If so, you have a lot of nerve talking about Christianity in the aspect that you have in this thread. Can you say hypocrisy??

 

[Dragon]

When's the last time you attended any christian service or studied the Bible through the eyes of a Christian, i.e. trying to learn from it rather than being biased against it?

Instead of asking deceptive questions like that, you jackass, if you claim that what I'm saying about traditional Christian doctrine is wrong, FUCKING SAY SO. Otherwise, you're just playing stupid games.

And let's take your list, half of them are upheld by anyone with any moral compass, religiously based or not. Would your spouse be okay with you holding sexual desire for anyone other than them, regardless of their religious beliefs or lack thereof?

Yes, she would. Because she would know that everyone does, that this is normal human behavior. Depending on the terms of our relationship, she might or might not have a problem if I actually did anything about it. But feeling desire? Only tyrants find that to be wrong.

And you're suggesting that you're not 'free' unless you can do those things on your list?

Exactly. Especially the first two.

Also, being a christian is a personal choice, you are 'free' to not be a christian if you don't believe what it is teaching.

Of course. Every traditional Christian is a slave by choice. That doesn't make them any less a slave. And they're not entirely a slave by choice; the threat of Hell is a threat of force, after all.

So, you're expression that 'christians don't believe in freedom' is ridiculous.

Wrong. That claim does not follow from what you pointed out above.

How do you see the government as being any different than religion?

Sort of like asking how you see a saw being different from a handbag, and besides it has nothing to do with the subject.

Mostly what you've done here is to confirm that you, too, are an enemy of liberty, and indeed don't know what it is. But I already knew that from other threads.

 

[Newby]

koshergrl is missing the point.

First of all, as i said in the op i can't be sure that billboard isn't a hoax. If i had to guess, i'd say probably it is, and that no church actually posted those words. So the church's words and what they meant by them (if they even said them to begin with) aren't the issue here.

this isn't something that i'm saying a church has said, it's something i'm saying that traditional christians believe, whether they say it or not, and whether that billboard is real or not. If it is, then maybe "atheist" is all the church meant by "free thinker."

but be that as it may, traditional christianity is opposed to free thinking, and to freedom in general, as those words literally mean -- not just atheism, but any freedom of thought, and any freedom of feeling, and any freedom of action, and freedom generally.

traditional christianity is an anti-freedom religion. and that is what i mean. What the church meant by the word "freethinker," if any church even said that in the first place, is irrelevant.

based on what exactly????

 

[Dragon]

based on what exactly????

If you don't know how to read, or are dishonest enough to pretend you don't, that's not my problem.

 

[Newby]

When's the last time you attended any christian service or studied the Bible through the eyes of a Christian, i.e. trying to learn from it rather than being biased against it?

Instead of asking deceptive questions like that, you jackass, if you claim that what I'm saying about traditional Christian doctrine is wrong, FUCKING SAY SO. Otherwise, you're just playing stupid games.

And let's take your list, half of them are upheld by anyone with any moral compass, religiously based or not. Would your spouse be okay with you holding sexual desire for anyone other than them, regardless of their religious beliefs or lack thereof?

Yes, she would. Because she would know that everyone does, that this is normal human behavior. Depending on the terms of our relationship, she might or might not have a problem if I actually did anything about it. But feeling desire? Only tyrants find that to be wrong.



Exactly. Especially the first two.



Of course. Every traditional Christian is a slave by choice. That doesn't make them any less a slave. And they're not entirely a slave by choice; the threat of Hell is a threat of force, after all.

So, you're expression that 'christians don't believe in freedom' is ridiculous.

Wrong. That claim does not follow from what you pointed out above.

How do you see the government as being any different than religion?

Sort of like asking how you see a saw being different from a handbag, and besides it has nothing to do with the subject.

Mostly what you've done here is to confirm that you, too, are an enemy of liberty, and indeed don't know what it is. But I already knew that from other threads.

So, in a nut shell, you just want to be able to fuck anything, anytime you want and not be held accountable for it? Like an animal? Why didn't you just say so? And by all means, you are FREE to not be a christian and you are FREE to fuck anytime you want, but why you have to denegrate those that have beliefs that to do so is wrong, is the question? Is that the only way you have to validate your animalistic thoughts and behavior?

After all of my posts, most of which you haven't answered, most likely because you can't, i.e. you know nothing about christianity other than what you read in your anti-christian propaganda, you still haven't defined WHY a christian is a 'slave' and doesn't believe in 'freedom'. So, let's hear it.

 

[Newby]

based on what exactly????

If you don't know how to read, or are dishonest enough to pretend you don't, that's not my problem.

Your lack of knowledge on the subject is painfully showing.

 

[koshergrl]

Wanna know why most churches don't like free thinkers?

They challenge dogma.

Wanna know why most Christians think free thinkers are slaves of the SaTan? Because they don't like having their dogma challenged.

Interestingly enough, Yeshua (Jesus) was a free thinker, why else do you think that He challenged the religious authority and chased the money changers out of the Temple?

He chased them out of the temple because they were following/idolizing a false God, money, and not His Father as they were commanded to do. So, actually in my opinion, the 'religious authority and the money changers were the 'free thinkers' and veering away from God's word, which is why He challenged them.

Freethinkers = those who challenge the church and refuse to accept any dogma whatever of religion. Generally they are atheists, and their focus is to draw people away from the church, and God.

He lies about what it means, and obfuscates, but that is exactly what he means when he says freethinker. It's one of those words (like fetus) meant to hide the actual meaning (militant anti-Christian).

 

[Newby]

Pagans are enemies of freedom, they are slaves to their beliefs and dogma, they are against freedom.

See? Anyone can do it. You don't know what the hell you're talking about.

 

[koshergrl]

No, he doesn't. But he sure likes to listen to himself, and obviously he really believes he's saying important stuff!

 

[Dragon]

So, in a nut shell, you just want to be able to fuck anything, anytime you want and not be held accountable for it? Like an animal? Why didn't you just say so? And by all means, you are FREE to not be a christian and you are FREE to fuck anytime you want, but why you have to denegrate those that have beliefs that to do so is wrong, is the question? Is that the only way you have to validate your animalistic thoughts and behavior?

After all of my posts, most of which you haven't answered, most likely because you can't, i.e. you know nothing about christianity other than what you read in your anti-christian propaganda, you still haven't defined WHY a christian is a 'slave' and doesn't believe in 'freedom'. So, let's hear it.

So evidently, you DON'T know how to read. Or at least, not to read for comprehension.

This post does not deserve a reply.

 

[Newby]

Oh, please. There are plenty of free thinkers of every religion. When any religious person goes fundy, though, they surrender free thought. Absolutely.

If that's what you meant - fundies - I completely agree.

That's what I meant. I even pointed out, at least once and I think twice, that there are Christians who aren't like that at all. Which is why I have been at pains to always say "traditional Christianity" here, and not just "Christianity."

Again, what is 'traditional christianity' and how does differ from 'those other christians' that aren't like what you supposedly think?

 

[Dragon]

Pagans are enemies of freedom, they are slaves to their beliefs and dogma, they are against freedom.

See? Anyone can do it. You don't know what the hell you're talking about.

Pagans have no dogma. We are defined by what we do, not what we believe.

Nice try, though.

BTW, I explained what I meant by "traditional Christianity" in an earlier post, in response to a question. Go look it up.

 

[Newby]

So, in a nut shell, you just want to be able to fuck anything, anytime you want and not be held accountable for it? Like an animal? Why didn't you just say so? And by all means, you are FREE to not be a christian and you are FREE to fuck anytime you want, but why you have to denegrate those that have beliefs that to do so is wrong, is the question? Is that the only way you have to validate your animalistic thoughts and behavior?

After all of my posts, most of which you haven't answered, most likely because you can't, i.e. you know nothing about christianity other than what you read in your anti-christian propaganda, you still haven't defined WHY a christian is a 'slave' and doesn't believe in 'freedom'. So, let's hear it.

So evidently, you DON'T know how to read. Or at least, not to read for comprehension.

This post does not deserve a reply.

Of course it doesn't, because you don't have an intellectual reason for saying what you're saying. You're just parroting, hence you can't explain what's behind your words.

 

[Newby]

Pagans are enemies of freedom, they are slaves to their beliefs and dogma, they are against freedom.

See? Anyone can do it. You don't know what the hell you're talking about.

Pagans have no dogma. We are defined by what we do, not what we believe.

Nice try, though.

BTW, I explained what I meant by "traditional Christianity" in an earlier post, in response to a question. Go look it up.

Pagans are slaves, what you do is based on what you believe. Just because it differs from christianity in doctrine, it still has a belief system.

 

[Dragon]

So, in a nut shell, you just want to be able to fuck anything, anytime you want and not be held accountable for it? Like an animal? Why didn't you just say so? And by all means, you are FREE to not be a christian and you are FREE to fuck anytime you want, but why you have to denegrate those that have beliefs that to do so is wrong, is the question? Is that the only way you have to validate your animalistic thoughts and behavior?

After all of my posts, most of which you haven't answered, most likely because you can't, i.e. you know nothing about christianity other than what you read in your anti-christian propaganda, you still haven't defined WHY a christian is a 'slave' and doesn't believe in 'freedom'. So, let's hear it.

So evidently, you DON'T know how to read. Or at least, not to read for comprehension.

This post does not deserve a reply.

Of course it doesn't, because you don't have an intellectual reason for saying what you're saying. You're just parroting, hence you can't explain what's behind your words.

It doesn't deserve a reply because it is ignorant, dishonest, and a statement of things you, personally, don't believe. It's also a deliberate distortion of my posts. I don't waste time with liars.

 

[Dragon]

Pagans are slaves, what you do is based on what you believe. Just because it differs from christianity in doctrine, it still has a belief system.

"Eight words the Wiccan rede fulfill, an it harm not, do what you will."

You really can't see the difference between that, and "Believe this, or you will burn in Hell for ever"? If not, then you really DON'T have any idea what freedom is.

 

[koshergrl]

and there's no point. This is what I have come to understand...anti-human, lying pieces of shit who are progressive fascists don't deserve courtesy, they don't deserve intelligent debate. They should be outed, and scorned, and shunted to the sidelines. Why afford those who lie, kill and steal (even if it is only in theory at this point) any courtesy at all? They can't learn, they refuse to be truthful..their entire being is wrapped up in promoting evil and harm.

Show the truth about them and to them. Give them the opportunity to save themselves, but don't allow care for THEM to prevent us from caring for those they would kill, destroy, subjugate, silence.