A question for Muslims

[PoliticalChic]

So the backwardness of Christian Germany and Italy made them folder for their societies to embrace Nazism?

Or the backwardness of Christian Russia led them to communism?

Possibly, depending on your definition of backward.

All three are cults that seek a utopia that requires the destruction of what exists currently.

Communism alone destroyed over 100 million in this hunt for 'a workers' paradise."

Nazism, you are aware of.

Islam, how many have been offered the three choices of Sura 9:29 of the (Koran): conversion, submission with second-class status under Islamic rule, or death?

I see you are doing the old side step PoliticalChic

Seeing how you used the word initially.

Typical

Deflection is acceptable, since you cannot refute.

But, let me continue with this point.

I believe that Islam can be saved, but only if Sura such 2:256 is prominently emphasized,
if Imams agree to change the focus, if men like Kemal Ataturk, who separated the political world from the Koran, if women are given equal freedom, if life is celebrated instead of death, if more attention is paid to Irshad Manji and Abdul Hadi Palazzi, and a 21st century reformation occurs.

It must be done, from within or from without.

 

[Kalam]

I've read a great deal about both the Koran and Qutb.

I recommend reading the works themselves if you find the time.

Consider the culture that owes its genesis, its direction, and its results to the Koran.

No such culture exists, PC...

Does the Koran authorize the education of its women? Or is it filled with pride over the misogyny we are all too familiar with?

Does the Qur'an forbid the education of women? Does it relegate you to commodity status as pre-Islamic customs would have? The Qur'an affirms the spiritual equality of man and woman. It prescribed rules for gender relations that liberated women as much as possible without completely upsetting the existent social order - the suggestion that Muhammad intended the specific laws that governed his society to remain in place forever is illogical and at odds with the Qur'an itself. There is nothing in the Qur'an that can be used to justify depriving women of education.

Do the limited number of universites in the Moslem world teach learning, exchange ideas, or simply interpret and reinterpret the Koran as the source of all knowledge?

That a university exists in the Islamic world does not mean that it can be used to draw conclusions about the entire religion.

The backwardness of the society makes them fodder for all the totalisms, such as Nazism, Communism, and Islamism.

An autocratic and oppressive government can't exist within the framework provided by Qur'anic Islam.

What is your explanation for this, other than the book which gives all laws, rules, customs, statutes and restrictions?

You're severely overestimating the role of the Qur'an's actual teachings in modern Islamic society. Your arguments are based on the misconception that the Qur'an is strictly adhered to by every ass-backward government in the Middle East... I have no idea why you drew this conclusion; it's quite far from the truth.

And why do you bring up the Marxist-radical-homocidal-Western hating Qutb? Have you read the 30 volumes of "In the Shade of the Koran"? Are you proud of his influence?

I brought up Qutb because understanding his ideology is key to understanding the difference between Islam and the un-Islamic abomination adhered to by most radicals today. Qutb was very intelligent. Unfortunately, his handful of astute observations are overshadowed by mountains of his misinterpretations and the abhorrent belief systems that came about as a result of his teachings. I haven't finished Fi Zilal al-Qur'an. There unfortunately aren't enough hours in the day to read everything I'd like to.

The lack of creativity that we see in the Moslem world today is in proportion to the crushing out of individuality by the Koran

There's nothing in the Qur'an that encourages the repression of creativity. If you have evidence that suggests otherwise, please share it.

and the echo of same in works of maniacs like Qutb. Doesn't he demonize individuality, or in the term he likes to use, 'desires,' in "Milestones"?

Qutb demonizes all deviation from his belief system.

 

[PoliticalChic]

Sura 52:24. And there shall "wait" on them young boys of their own, as fair as virgin pearls

If you have ever been to the middle east.

All waiters are male.

I have been, and none of my waiters suggested to me that je ne sais quoi of being "fresh as a virgin pearl."

"virgin" kind of gives it away.

 

[Ravi]

Sura 52:24. And there shall "wait" on them young boys of their own, as fair as virgin pearls

If you have ever been to the middle east.

All waiters are male.

Of course, because women are unclean in the eyes of Muslims.

"Hey, Makmud, if we blow up some Jews we can be waited on by young boys as fresh as pearls, wink, wink."

 

[Ravi]

Sura 52:24. And there shall "wait" on them young boys of their own, as fair as virgin pearls

If you have ever been to the middle east.

All waiters are male.

I have been, and none of my waiters suggested to me that je ne sais quoi of being "fresh as a virgin pearl."

"virgin" kind of gives it away.

Well, you've convinced me. Muslims suck. TFF!

 

[Sunni Man]

Possibly, depending on your definition of backward.

All three are cults that seek a utopia that requires the destruction of what exists currently.

Communism alone destroyed over 100 million in this hunt for 'a workers' paradise."

Nazism, you are aware of.

Islam, how many have been offered the three choices of Sura 9:29 of the (Koran): conversion, submission with second-class status under Islamic rule, or death?

I see you are doing the old side step PoliticalChic

Seeing how you used the word initially.

Typical

Deflection is acceptable, since you cannot refute.

But, let me continue with this point.

I believe that Islam can be saved, but only if Sura such 2:256 is prominently emphasized,
if Imams agree to change the focus, if men like Kemal Ataturk, who separated the political world from the Koran, if women are given equal freedom, if life is celebrated instead of death, if more attention is paid to Irshad Manji and Abdul Hadi Palazzi, and a 21st century reformation occurs.

It must be done, from within or from without.

It "MUST" be done?
Says who? You??

 

[Kalam]

Are you familiar with all of the following?
1. The massacre of the Banu Qurayzah tribe

The tribe was executed for treachery at the Battle of the Trench. The B. Qurayza betrayed the Muslim-Jewish Ummah established by the Madinah Compact by negotiating with the besieging Quraysh. The implication that they were executed because they were Jewish is patently dishonest and requires ignoring the fact that many of those betrayed by the B. Qurayza were themselves Jewish.

2. Intolerance as a hallmark of Islam

a. The meaning of Dhimmi

Same point as below.

b. The Jizya

Muslims were required to pay zakat. Non-Muslims could opt to pay jizya in exchange for autonomy and exemption from conscription.

3. The Treaty of Hudaybiyya

What about it?

4. Taqiyya

Not in or based on the Qur'an.

5. Although forbidden to the faithful, except in the case of rape of infidel women, the Koran promises the following to warriors who have died in battle for Islam: sex outside of marriage, alcoholic beverages, homosexuality.

All false. Provide verses or please stop lying.

 

[Kalam]

You do realize the Quran says that the young boys are only waiters who serve NON- alcholic wine?

Now, now, you know many have interpreted these Sura as license for pederasty.
"Round about them will serve boys of perpetual freshness."
and
"•Sura 52:24. "And there shall wait on them young boys And those who believe and
whose offspring follow them in faith, as fair as virgin pearls."

In none of these Sura is the role of the fresh young boys stated.
True?

24 refers to the offspring of the faithful mentioned in 21. Hence "offspring."

And those who believe and whose offspring follow them in faith— We unite with them their offspring and We shall deprive them of naught of their work. Every man is pledged for what he does. - 52:21

Any interpretation of that as a "license for pederasty" is failtastic.

 

[Kalam]

Sura 52:24. And there shall "wait" on them young boys of their own, as fair as virgin pearls

If you have ever been to the middle east.

All waiters are male.

I have been, and none of my waiters suggested to me that je ne sais quoi of being "fresh as a virgin pearl."

"virgin" kind of gives it away.

Well, you've convinced me. Muslims suck. TFF!

It didn't take much. I'd toss you some KFC coupons to change your mind if I thought your opinion was worth a chicken sandwich.

 

[del]

You do realize the Quran says that the young boys are only waiters who serve NON- alcholic wine?

bwahahahaha! Why would the Quran promise young boys as waiters?

because young girls would be waitresses

 

[PoliticalChic]

I've read a great deal about both the Koran and Qutb.

I recommend reading the works themselves if you find the time.

Consider the culture that owes its genesis, its direction, and its results to the Koran.

No such culture exists, PC...


Does the Qur'an forbid the education of women? Does it relegate you to commodity status as pre-Islamic customs would have? The Qur'an affirms the spiritual equality of man and woman. It prescribed rules for gender relations that liberated women as much as possible without completely upsetting the existent social order - the suggestion that Muhammad intended the specific laws that governed his society to remain in place forever is illogical and at odds with the Qur'an itself. There is nothing in the Qur'an that can be used to justify depriving women of education.


That a university exists in the Islamic world does not mean that it can be used to draw conclusions about the entire religion.


An autocratic and oppressive government can't exist within the framework provided by Qur'anic Islam.


You're severely overestimating the role of the Qur'an's actual teachings in modern Islamic society. Your arguments are based on the misconception that the Qur'an is strictly adhered to by every ass-backward government in the Middle East... I have no idea why you drew this conclusion; it's quite far from the truth.


I brought up Qutb because understanding his ideology is key to understanding the difference between Islam and the un-Islamic abomination adhered to by most radicals today. Qutb was very intelligent. Unfortunately, his handful of astute observations are overshadowed by mountains of his misinterpretations and the abhorrent belief systems that came about as a result of his teachings. I haven't finished Fi Zilal al-Qur'an. There unfortunately aren't enough hours in the day to read everything I'd like to.

The lack of creativity that we see in the Moslem world today is in proportion to the crushing out of individuality by the Koran

There's nothing in the Qur'an that encourages the repression of creativity. If you have evidence that suggests otherwise, please share it.

and the echo of same in works of maniacs like Qutb. Doesn't he demonize individuality, or in the term he likes to use, 'desires,' in "Milestones"?

Qutb demonizes all deviation from his belief system.

Your defense is, in general, diaphanous.

But pleasant.

Now, the part about crushing individuality is of particular interest to me. And, like all totalist cults, including Communism and Nazism, both of which have contributed to radical Islam, your friend Qutb as a case in point, all forms of human attributes which also include desires, pleasures, love, and affection for a particular person are all anathema to Islam, as the only attachment must be to Allah (pbu).
These forms of individuality are the hallmark of Western culture.


Moslem culture practices various forms of gender apartheid, the most obvious is the full body covering in female dress. Enforced to a ridiculous degree:
“Saudi Arabia's religious police stopped schoolgirls from leaving a blazing building because they were not wearing correct Islamic dress, according to Saudi newspapers… hindering attempts to save 15 girls who died in the fire on Monday”
BBC News | MIDDLE EAST | Saudi police 'stopped' fire rescue

Men's dress is similarly restricted. Individuality?

This, of course, to prevent physical attraction.

And to prevent full bonding even in marriage? Why, polygamy of course. And the total ease of divorce.

Interesting, isn't it, that the freedom that women enjoy is directly proportional to how Islamic the country is- take Turkey, Morocco, and Indonesia as examples.

Women are assumed to be inferior (Sura 2:28) In a hadith, Mohammad is quoted as saying women are deficient in mind, hence they need not be educated.
Women who express individuality must face the repercussions of Sura 4:34- beatings.

And the creativity of art and literature is stunted, outside of the magnificent geometric patterns found in mosques. No representational art is allowed.

And, I don't believe that I have overestimated the extent to which the Koran influences the society- in the more restrictive on the Moslem nations.

"unfortunately aren't enough hours in the day to read everything I'd like to."

A lovely sentiment. I wish more people felt that way.

 

[PoliticalChic]

Are you familiar with all of the following?
1. The massacre of the Banu Qurayzah tribe

The tribe was executed for treachery at the Battle of the Trench. The B. Qurayza betrayed the Muslim-Jewish Ummah established by the Madinah Compact by negotiating with the besieging Quraysh. The implication that they were executed because they were Jewish is patently dishonest and requires ignoring the fact that many of those betrayed by the B. Qurayza were themselves Jewish.

2. Intolerance as a hallmark of Islam

a. The meaning of Dhimmi

Same point as below.


Muslims were required to pay zakat. Non-Muslims could opt to pay jizya in exchange for autonomy and exemption from conscription.


What about it?

4. Taqiyya

Not in or based on the Qur'an.

5. Although forbidden to the faithful, except in the case of rape of infidel women, the Koran promises the following to warriors who have died in battle for Islam: sex outside of marriage, alcoholic beverages, homosexuality.

All false. Provide verses or please stop lying.

Muhammad, who oversaw such acts as the beheading of 900 captives of the Banu Qurayzah tribe as he watched the bodies thrown into a pit.(… in his 1895 biography of Muhammad ("Mahomet and Islam", London, 1895, p. 151), which relied entirely on the original Muslim sources, the scholar Sir William Muir observed:
"The massacre of the Banu Coreiza was a barbarous deed which cannot be justified by any reason of political necessity?the indiscriminate slaughter of the whole tribe cannot be recognized otherwise than as an act of monstrous cruelty?")
The Legacy of Jihad [Andrew G. Bostom] - Muhammad, the Qurayza Massacre, and PBS

Dhimmi is the status given to Jews and Christians under Islam. Throughout history, these religious minorities in Muslim lands have been oppressed and victimized.
D H I M M I :: Coalition for the Defense of Human Rights

The Jizya was mandated by the Quran, Surah 9, verse 29:

Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold forbidden that which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizyah with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.
Jizya

It seems that you are quite familiar wity taqiyya:
Falsehoods told to prevent the denigration of Islam, to protect oneself, or to promote the cause of Islam are sanctioned in the Qur'an and Sunna, including lying under oath in testimony before a court, deceiving by making distorted statements to the media such as the claim that Islam is a “religion of peace”. A Muslim is even permitted to deny or denounce his faith if, in so doing, he protects or furthers the interests of Islam, so long as he remains faithful to Islam in his heart. Bukhari Vol 3: 857 “Narrated Um Kulthum bint Uqba
Islam Watch - "Understanding Taqiyya ― Islamic Principle of Lying for the Sake of Allah" by Warner MacKenzie
"[H]e who keeps secrets shall soon attain his objectives ... All War is a ruse" and "Let not the believers take for friends or helpers unbelievers rather than believers; if any do that, they shall have no relation left with Allah except by way of precaution ... [taqiyya] that ye may guard yourselves". [Koran 3:28 and 40.28, emphasis added]
'Taqiyya': how Islamic extremists deceive the West. (22-DEC-05) National Observer - Australia and World Affairs

Do you admit to having lied here?

Item #5 has been documented in post#94.

So, notice, I don't lie.

Would you like to retract?

 

[Sunni Man]

Give me a break PoliticalChic

You lie all of the time!!!

 

[PoliticalChic]

Give me a break PoliticalChic

You lie all of the time!!!

I understand your frustration.

 

[Anguille]

There are no quotes in my post.

I have listed a number of points that you are either familiar with, or not.

If not, you should make yourself familiar with same, so as to have an informed opinion of the nature of Islam.

You quote me saying things you said, not what I said. You need to delete some of the script to make it right.

specify the post

Post 85!!!!!!

Please take a break from your blathering to fix it. I don't want people to think I said the things you said.

 

[Anguille]

and "Muslims must present non-Muslims with the three choices of Sura 9:29 of the (Koran): conversion, submission with second-class status under Islamic rule, or death."

I wish I had enough time to address the rest of your post and its many fallacies but I don't.

But concerning what you claim above. Why have none of my Muslim friends tried to convert me, subjugate me under Islamic Rule or kill me?

Why?

Because Muslims don't do stuff like that, only crazy people do.

If that kind of stuff was what average Muslims do then and seeing as the Muslim population of the world is enormous, please explain to me why the rest of us non Muslims are not dead?

 

[Sunni Man]

Give me a break PoliticalChic

You lie all of the time!!!

I understand your frustration.

It's not just me.

Most of the members on this board feel the same way about you

 

[PoliticalChic]

Give me a break PoliticalChic

You lie all of the time!!!

I understand your frustration.

It's not just me.

Most of the members on this board feel the same way about you

I appreciate your doing the poll, but

"It matters not how strait the gate,
How charged with punishments the scrolls,
I am the master of my fate:
I am the captain of my soul."

Henley

 

[PoliticalChic]

You quote me saying things you said, not what I said. You need to delete some of the script to make it right.

specify the post

Post 85!!!!!!

Please take a break from your blathering to fix it. I don't want people to think I said the things you said.

Post 85 contains your quote, and my response.

 

[Anguille]

Sura 52:24. And there shall "wait" on them young boys of their own, as fair as virgin pearls

If you have ever been to the middle east.

All waiters are male.

Of course, because women are unclean in the eyes of Muslims.

"Hey, Makmud, if we blow up some Jews we can be waited on by young boys as fresh as pearls, wink, wink."

You are mixing up Islam with orthodox Judaism. It's the Orthodox Jews who consider women unclean. An Orthodox Jew is forbidden from touching his wife during her menstrual period. He is not even allowed to touch her if she is ill and in need of medical help.

Does it not disturb you in any small way that you are on the same side of an argument with an Ann Coulter devotee? Look what you're becoming Ravi.