AGW: atmospheric physics

[Saigon]

SSDD -

I'm really not interested in your usual children's games, diversions and half truths. No one is.

Either post HARD, SCIENTIFIC proof of an ice-free Arctic having occured within the past century, or admit that you were, as per usual, wrong.

I'm not sure even you have been wrong by 5,400 years before!!

 

[editec]

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QvXj_WjTU5Y]Leon Russell A Hard Rains A gonna Fall - YouTube[/ame]

 

[SSDD]

SSDD -

Please post with a little honesty and integrity. Really.

You claimed the Arctic was ice free within the past hundred years.

A reputable source claims you are out by 5,400 years.

Please admit your error.

No error.... Here are 3 photos of submarines taken at the north pole in open water... I suggest that you take a few minutes and try to find the age of the oldest ice ever found in the Arctic.

The Oldest arctic ice is a small remnant of the Ellesmere Ice Shelf which began forming some 5000 years ago. What sort of study claims that the arctic ice is 125,000 years old when the oldest arctic ice is only about 5000 years old? And according to nasa, the oldes toughest sea ice is no older than 8 or 9 years old.

Off-duty » Top secret submarine at the North Pole

Where is the Ice at the North pole? | In Pursuit of Happiness

 

[SSDD]

SSDD -

I'm really not interested in your usual children's games, diversions and half truths. No one is.

Either post HARD, SCIENTIFIC proof of an ice-free Arctic having occured within the past century, or admit that you were, as per usual, wrong.

I'm not sure even you have been wrong by 5,400 years before!!

The Oldest Arctic Ice

The oldest non-glacial ice in the northern hemisphere is a small remnant of the former Ellesmere Ice Shelf which began forming about 5500 years ago.

 

[Old Rocks]

Some studies suggest that as recent as 5,500 years ago, the Arctic had less summertime sea ice than today. However, it is not clear that the Arctic was completely free of summertime sea ice during this time.

Some studies? What does that mean? Some studies show that there was no ice in the arctic during the holocene? Of course, that is exactly what that means.

Ice free Arctic Ocean, an Early Holocene analogue.

http://www.webpages.uidaho.edu/envs501/downloads/Jakobsson et al. 2010.pdf


There are plenty more studies that indicate an ice free arctic during the holocene

The next earliest era when the Arctic was quite possibly free of summertime ice was 125,000 years ago, during the height of the last major interglacial period, known as the Eemian.

You say that as if it were fact when clearly it is not as evidenced by studies that state that the arctic was ice free during the holocene.

The there remains the question....why did it melt when atmospheric CO2 was so much lower than the present? Clearly CO2 is not the control knob you believe it to be.

Thank you, SSDD. This will be a valueble resource for future referance.

http://www.webpages.uidaho.edu/envs501/downloads/Jakobsson et al. 2010.pdf

4. Concluding remarks

APEX is now up and running e we have now established a growing community of scholars from Europe, Russia and America who are working to address critical questions regarding Arctic palaeoclimate and its extremes. The papers in this issue demonstrate the breadth of topics being considered that span the full range of terrestrial to marine records and which are closely integrated with modelling.

This review of APEX research identifies several areas that are distinct to the present programme and that represent significant advances on previous work in QUEEN and PONAM. The Arctic Ocean was essentially terra incognita in these earlier programmes,
playing second fiddle to the terrestrial records of Arctic palaeoclimate, but in APEX it now occupies a central part of the Arctic palaeoclimate system and the current research programme. Understanding the links between climate change, palaeoceanography,
sea ice extent and land-based ice is a challenge that APEX is now well-positioned to address. Future work should look to develop an integrated reconstruction of terrestrial and marine based evidence for ice sheet and ice shelf history in the Arctic Ocean
and surrounding land masses. This is beginning to happen in the papers within this issue e the terrestrial history of the Greenland Ice Sheet is being integrated into the continental and deep ocean records, as are the ice sheets of Eurasia. Further advances are
expected in the Canadian and Siberian arctic in coming years. A second area of future focus will be to improve our understanding of conditions during the periods of significantly greater than present ice extent (MIS6) and periods of much reduced ice cover (MIS 5e
and the Holocene thermal optimum). The latter provides important base-line conditions against which to explore potential future changes in Arctic climate under scenarios of global warming.

 

[SSDD]

Thank you, SSDD. This will be a valueble resource for future referance.

m). The latter provides important base-line conditions against which to explore potential future changes in Arctic climate under scenarios of global warming.

Note that they said nothing about man made global warming. Further...as noted above, the oldest arctic ice is 5000 years old indicating an ice free arctic in the not so distant past. Along with the photos above showing open water at the north pole in the very recent past but before atmospheric CO2 became "dangerous".

 

[Saigon]

SSDD -

Had any other poster made your laughable claim, I'd had expected them to withdraw it and apologise.

I don't think anyone familiar with your daily rite of self-immolation would have expected anything other than diversions and lies.

Well done - you really are such an honest poster.

 

[SSDD]

SSDD -

Had any other poster made your laughable claim, I'd had expected them to withdraw it and apologise.

I don't think anyone familiar with your daily rite of self-immolation would have expected anything other than diversions and lies.

Well done - you really are such an honest poster.

What a moron you are....don't even realize that I have proven my point and made your claim of an ice free arctic 125000 years ago laughable. Seems you were off by over 100,000 years.

And before you make an even bigger idiot out of yourself, you might take a minute or two to learn what is meant by the phrase "ice free" even by arctic researchers. They don't mean a complete absence of ice...they mean large areas of open water...such as those you see in the photo of the USS Skate in the 1950's.

That is the problem wtih talking to you guys who have no grasp of the science...every tiny detail must be explained to you 10 times and still you don't get it. Hell, you still believe there is proof that increased atmospheric CO2 results in increased global temperature even though you can't seem to find any to post here.

 

[Saigon]

I have proven my point

No, you haven't and of course you know you haven't either.

You claimed that the Arctic had been ice-free within the past hundred years, which is obviously laughable, and you have not even attempted to defend it for obvious reasons.

That is the problem wtih talking to you guys who have no grasp of the science.

You also claimed earlier to know what good science is and looks like - and yet your own 'evidence' presented to back up your claims are postcards. Are postcards science?

Why do you do this to yourself?

Do you think this makes you look clever?

 

[Saigon]

The myth of the Denier case:

Those things might constitute proof for idiots, or people who want to believe (still idiots) but not for rational thinkers.

The reality of the deniar case:

picture postcards.

 

[Old Rocks]

9% higher energy then than now, yet today we are rapidly approaching where the ice was then, and in the space of a century and a half, not thousands of years.

http://www.geo.umass.edu/faculty/jbg/Pubs/Milleretal2010TempandPrecip.pdf

As the planet cooled from peak warmth in the early Cenozoic, extensive Northern Hemisphere ice sheets
developed by 2.6 Ma ago, leading to changes in the circulation of both the atmosphere and oceans. From
w2.6 to w1.0 Ma ago, ice sheets came and went about every 41 ka, in pace with cycles in the tilt of
Earth’s axis, but for the past 700 ka, glacial cycles have been longer, lasting w100 ka, separated by brief,
warm interglaciations, when sea level and ice volumes were close to present. The cause of the shift from
41 ka to 100 ka glacial cycles is still debated. During the penultimate interglaciation, w130 to w120 ka
ago, solar energy in summer in the Arctic was greater than at any time subsequently. As a consequence,
Arctic summers werew5
C warmer than at present, and almost all glaciers melted completely except for
the Greenland Ice Sheet, and even it was reduced in size substantially from its present extent. With the
loss of land ice, sea level was about 5 m higher than present, with the extra melt coming from both
Greenland and Antarctica as well as small glaciers. The Last Glacial Maximum (LGM) peaked w21 ka ago,
when mean annual temperatures over parts of the Arctic were as much as 20
C lower than at present.
Ice recession was well underway 16 ka ago, and most of the Northern Hemisphere ice sheets had melted
by 6 ka ago. Solar energy reached a summer maximum (9% higher than at present) w11 ka ago and has
been decreasing since then, primarily in response to the precession of the equinoxes. The extra energy
elevated early Holocene summer temperatures throughout the Arctic 1e3
C above 20th century averages,
enough to completely melt many small glaciers throughout the Arctic, although the Greenland Ice
Sheet was only slightly smaller than at present. Early Holocene summer sea ice limits were substantially
smaller than their 20th century average, and the flow of Atlantic water into the Arctic Ocean was
substantially greater. As summer solar energy decreased in the second half of the Holocene, glaciers reestablished
or advanced, sea ice expanded, and the flow of warm Atlantic water into the Arctic Oceandiminished. Late Holocene cooling reached its nadir during the Little Ice Age (about 1250e1850 AD),
when sun-blocking volcanic eruptions and perhaps other causes added to the orbital cooling, allowing
most Arctic glaciers to reach their maximum Holocene extent. During the warming of the past century,
glaciers have receded throughout the Arctic, terrestrial ecosystems have advanced northward, and
perennial Arctic Ocean sea ice has diminished.

 

[SSDD]

You claimed that the Arctic had been ice-free within the past hundred years, which is obviously laughable, and you have not even attempted to defend it for obvious reasons.

Open water at the pole qualifies as ice free. Sorry you lack the requisite knowledge to understand that.

Still waiting on that proof that you claimed existed. If you were honest, you woud simply admit that you have none. When asked, I support my claims with actual evidence.

Again, the oldest ice ever found in the arctic is 5000 years old. That means that prior to that time, the arctic was ice free.

 

[SSDD]

The myth of the Denier case:

Those things might constitute proof for idiots, or people who want to believe (still idiots) but not for rational thinkers.

The reality of the deniar case:

picture postcards.

Still no hard evidence to post? Don't worry, all us skeptics already knew that you would have none to post. Lack of hard evidnece...that's what makes us skeptics.

 

[SSDD]

9% higher energy then than now, yet today we are rapidly approaching where the ice was then, and in the space of a century and a half, not thousands of years.

Based on what? Trenberth's missing heat? That is an unprovable, and unsupported claim.

 

[Saigon]

Open water at the pole qualifies as ice free. Sorry you lack the requisite knowledge to understand that..

No it does not - and please try and post honestly and with a little dignity. You also have not presented any scientific evidence of any kind to even establish that there was open water at the pole.

Simply lying, changing topic, running away and then lying some more does not establish anything we didn't already know about you.

 

[Old Rocks]

You claimed that the Arctic had been ice-free within the past hundred years, which is obviously laughable, and you have not even attempted to defend it for obvious reasons.

Open water at the pole qualifies as ice free. Sorry you lack the requisite knowledge to understand that.

Still waiting on that proof that you claimed existed. If you were honest, you woud simply admit that you have none. When asked, I support my claims with actual evidence.

Again, the oldest ice ever found in the arctic is 5000 years old. That means that prior to that time, the arctic was ice free.

Once again, you are full of shit. The ice often opens and creates large areas of open ocean. Polynyas;

All About Sea Ice, Polynyas :: National Snow and Ice Data Center

 

[Saigon]

Still no hard evidence to post? Don't worry, all us skeptics already knew that you would have none to post. Lack of hard evidnece...that's what makes us skeptics.

Your evidence was postcards, genius.

Again - please try and post honestly.

When asked, I support my claims with actual evidence.

No, you posted postcards.

 

[Old Rocks]

9% higher energy then than now, yet today we are rapidly approaching where the ice was then, and in the space of a century and a half, not thousands of years.

Based on what? Trenberth's missing heat? That is an unprovable, and unsupported claim.

Argue that with the scientists. For these are accredited scientists writing the article. From the same institution as the article in your post.

 

[SSDD]

Still no hard evidence to post? Don't worry, all us skeptics already knew that you would have none to post. Lack of hard evidnece...that's what makes us skeptics.

Your evidence was postcards, genius.

Again - please try and post honestly.

When asked, I support my claims with actual evidence.

No, you posted postcards.

Isn't it sad when a couple of postcards can prove all of climate science wrong?

Still no hard evidence to support your cliams? None now...none ever.

 

[Saigon]

your claim of an ice free arctic 125000 years ago laughable.

and it's back to lying.

What I posted was:

Some studies suggest that as recent as 5,500 years ago, the Arctic had less summertime sea ice than today. However, it is not clear that the Arctic was completely free of summertime sea ice during this time.