Ali's phenomenally weak punch

[The Duke]

Tyson was well-trained and disciplined.

 

[The Duke]

I'll denigrate Tyson if I want, lol.

You couldn't beat me, let alone him. I ain't all that.
Something I found out tonight though, is that a guy I learned some things about fighting from is actually kind of famous.

He's not a big guy, but he was an underground fighting champion back in the day.
And in later days he hit the big time. Pretty much as big as it gets for what he does.
He made it, and how! For my situation, I probably learned more practical and useful things from his brother. He did teach me a few things, though. I haven't lost that many fights, and I am not scared to. I made use of what he taught me a few times.

 

[rupol2000]

Moron, where did you manage to consider "Tyson's tactics" there? Even children know this. Tyson pendulum, peekaboo style. The enter to short distance and a series of uppercuts.

Why are there so many idiots in the US? Surely these are European migrants brought in by Obama and Trump

 

[multivita-man]

Tyson was well-trained

From 1980-1988, he was trained by some of the best trainers in modern boxing. After the Spinks fight, it was a long, slow, steady decline.

and disciplined.

Until 1988, then he went out fired the people who were with him when he was a nobody, and you saw what happened. Despite this, Tyson was such a physically gifted athlete who by that point had learned a thing or two.

But as I said, Tyson's decline wasn't just self-inflicted; newer heavyweights with Olympic pedigree had developed and matured into elite boxers. Maybe if Tyson had continued with Kevin Rooney, maybe he wins against an elite opponent after 1990-91 - maybe.

 

[multivita-man]

Moron, where did you manage to consider "Tyson's tactics" there? Even children know this. Tyson pendulum, peekaboo style. The enter to short distance and a series of uppercuts.

Why are there so many idiots in the US? Surely these are European migrants brought in by Obama and Trump

Pendulum peekaboo style that he had pretty much abandoned by 1989. And again, name me an elite heavyweight fighter that Tyson beat in his prime with that peekaboo style.

 

[Innocynioc]

At least Ali never totally lost his cool and tried to bite off his opponent's ear.

 

[multivita-man]

At least Ali never totally lost his cool and tried to bite off his opponent's ear.

In all fairness to Mike, Evander was leading in with his head that fight and he had done that a time or two in the first contest. I still think Holyfield was winning on points and would have won a decision, but he was able to KO Tyson because he cut him, and he cut him by clashing heads.

 

[katsteve2012]

Tyson just never had the quality of opponent that Ali faced

Liston, Frazier, Norton; Foreman

Even guys like Jerry Quarry, Oscar Bonavena and George Chuvalo were tougher than most of Tysons early opponents.

Tysons toughest opponents were Lennox Lewis and Evander Holyfield, and you know what the end result of those bouts were.

 

[katsteve2012]

Ali's punches are probably the weakest in the heavyweight division of all time. He did not have the normal punching technique of a real boxer at all. He strikes technically incorrectly and clumsily.

By his own admission, Ali was not known for being a knockout puncher, however he managed to win 37 of his 61 bouts by stoppage.

As far as his punch being "weak", that is an unfounded exaggeration on your part.

You must not have seen Ali's fight with Oscar Bonavena. After he came back from being banned from competition for 3 1/2 years he knocked out Bonavena in the 15 round in only the second fight that he had after coming back. Bonavena had NEVER been stopped before.

Joe Frazier fought Bonavena twice and had to get up from two knockdowns to win a hard fought decision.

 

[rightwinger]

Even guys like Jerry Quarry, Oscar Bonavena and George Chuvalo were tougher than most of Tysons early opponents.

Tysons toughest opponents were Lennox Lewis and Evander Holyfield, and you know what the end result of those bouts were.

Ever see Clay fight Ex champ Floyd Patterson?
Wasn’t pretty

 

[katsteve2012]

Ever see Clay fight Ex champ Floyd Patterson?
Wasn’t pretty

Yes RW, I saw both of his fights with Patterson, and they were difficult to watch.

I always liked Floyd, and think that it was unfortunate that there was no cruiserweight division during his era

 

[multivita-man]

Even guys like Jerry Quarry, Oscar Bonavena and George Chuvalo were tougher than most of Tysons early opponents.

Tysons toughest opponents were Lennox Lewis and Evander Holyfield, and you know what the end result of those bouts were.

I think young Mike would have had a shot against either of those fighters -- if that hypothetical fight had taken place in the 1980s. I say that because both Holyfield and Lewis took time to make the transition from amateur to pro, though Holyfield's transition was much faster and steadier than Lewis'.

Holyfield's main problem early in his career is that he needed time to put on muscle and weight and to learn how to fight with that excess muscle mass. People forget he started out at 175-85, whereas Tyson regularly fought at 215-217. I don't think Holyfield fought as a heavy until Pinklon Thomas or James 'Quick' Tillis, around 1988, which was the year Tyson unified the division with all three belts. If they had fought then, yeah, Tyson wins, and that's probably true for another year or two. But by 1990, even at just 208 pounds, Holyfield had the power of a decent heavyweight, and he easily had the stamina, boxing skills, and chin to beat Tyson in a 12-round contest.

As for Lewis, he took longer to develop as a pro, probably because it was hard for him to find opponents who were willing to step in the ring with him. Every up-and-coming fighter knew that Lewis had a straight right hand from hell. Lewis' inability to find willing, capable opponents, in a way, stunted his growth. And consequently, he had a couple of 'learning experiences' in which he got clobbered and was unable to recover. Lewis defense was sometimes suspect, as was his preparation. But he usually rose to the occasion. That's why I think, 1985-1990? Yeah, I give Tyson even odds and maybe even a slight edge had they actually met because Tyson would have been the most ferocious and hardest hitter Lewis had ever seen as a pro by that point. But from 1990 on, especially after 1992, I think Lewis would have been too much for Mike, and that's especially true as Tyson's quickness and head movement faded.

 

[multivita-man]

Ever see Clay fight Ex champ Floyd Patterson?
Wasn’t pretty

Patterson was not a true heavyweight, and he wanted no part of Rocky Marciano. The punch that Liston hit Patterson with was a punch that might he stunned a true heavy but wouldn't have sent him to the canvas the way it did Floyd.

Again, Ali was a true heavyweight fighter: 6'3" and 225+.

But he had the movement of someone much lighter. Ali was an exceptionally gifted, athletic boxer. I agree that he was not necessarily a one-punch knockout artist, but he didn't have to be. He could wear fighters out physically and mentally.

 

[katsteve2012]

Ali was about 6'3" and 225-235 lbs. He was naturally bigger than many of the heavyweights who were in the division in the early 1960s, including Sonny Liston, who was about 6'0" and maybe 215 pounds soaking wet. That's what a lot of people forget - Ali was a bigger man than Liston and most of the heavyweights of the 1950s and early 60s. Marciano, for reference, was 5'10" and 190 lbs, a cruiserweight by today's standard.

Ali didn't need to be a devastating, clubbing puncher like Foreman or Ken Norton; he had natural athleticism, size, and raw power from his hand speed and quick reflexes - more than enough to take out many of his opponents. He could also, to his ultimate detriment, take a beating. And that, IMO, is why Ali was so successful. He might not have had the best one-punch power, and he probably knew that, so his strategy was to wear fighters out and pick them apart in later rounds.

Unfortunately, they clubbed the shit out of him too, and I am convinced that Ali's brain damage occurred in two or three fights: the last fight with Frazier and the last 1-2 fights with Ken Norton. After those three fights, he was never the same. You can tell in his fight against Shavers and Spinks, somethin' ain't right. And it's beyond obvious in his fight with Holmes.

Ali actually fought many of his early fights between 192 to about 205. In peak condition during his prime he was about 212-215. As he aged and began to not train as diligently, he came in at 225-230 on a few occasions. The link below shows his weight for each fight.

Fight by fight: Muhammad Ali's legendary career

A fight-by-fight breakdown of the boxing career of the legendary Muhammad Ali.

www.usatoday.com

As far as the punches that he took in later years, according to his biographer Howard Bingham, after he came back from being exiled in 1971, he had lost a lot of his footspeed and started using the ropes(Rope A Dope) more which led to raking more punches, a lot of them in training camp, which obviously had a cumulative effect.

 

[multivita-man]

Ali actually fought many of his early fights between 192 to about 205. In peak condition during his prime he was about 212-215. As he aged and began to not train as diligently, he came in at 225-230 on a few occasions. The link below shows his weight for each fight.

Fight by fight: Muhammad Ali's legendary career

A fight-by-fight breakdown of the boxing career of the legendary Muhammad Ali.

www.usatoday.com

As far as the punches that he took in later years, according to his biographer Howard Bingham, after he came back from being exiled in 1971, he had lost a lot of his footspeed and started using the ropes(Rope A Dope) more which led to raking more punches, a lot of them in training camp, which obviously had a cumulative effect.

Nice - thanks for sharing.

I didn't realize he had to bulk up a bit, but by the time he fought Liston he was already 210 and he was a fit 210 at that - certainly big and strong enough to compete with the heavies of his day.

Re the punishment, those last few fights with Frazier, Norton, and Shavers...just hard to watch. That's where he got his brains battered.

 

[katsteve2012]

I think young Mike would have had a shot against either of those fighters -- if that hypothetical fight had taken place in the 1980s. I say that because both Holyfield and Lewis took time to make the transition from amateur to pro, though Holyfield's transition was much faster and steadier than Lewis'.

Holyfield's main problem early in his career is that he needed time to put on muscle and weight and to learn how to fight with that excess muscle mass. People forget he started out at 175-85, whereas Tyson regularly fought at 215-217. I don't think Holyfield fought as a heavy until Pinklon Thomas or James 'Quick' Tillis, around 1988, which was the year Tyson unified the division with all three belts. If they had fought then, yeah, Tyson wins, and that's probably true for another year or two. But by 1990, even at just 208 pounds, Holyfield had the power of a decent heavyweight, and he easily had the stamina, boxing skills, and chin to beat Tyson in a 12-round contest.

As for Lewis, he took longer to develop as a pro, probably because it was hard for him to find opponents who were willing to step in the ring with him. Every up-and-coming fighter knew that Lewis had a straight right hand from hell. Lewis' inability to find willing, capable opponents, in a way, stunted his growth. And consequently, he had a couple of 'learning experiences' in which he got clobbered and was unable to recover. Lewis defense was sometimes suspect, as was his preparation. But he usually rose to the occasion. That's why I think, 1985-1990? Yeah, I give Tyson even odds and maybe even a slight edge had they actually met because Tyson would have been the most ferocious and hardest hitter Lewis had ever seen as a pro by that point. But from 1990 on, especially after 1992, I think Lewis would have been too much for Mike, and that's especially true as Tyson's quickness and head movement faded.

Great points. When Holyfield fought Tyson the first time, a friend of mine who is a pro trainer invited me to come to the weigh in before the fight.

I was astonished by how much bigger Holyfield looked than Tyson.

I totally agree with you that a PRIME Tyson trained by
Cus D' Amato would have handled Quarry, Bonavena and Chuvalo. He had superior hand and foot speed along with his power back in those days.

 

[katsteve2012]

Nice - thanks for sharing.

I didn't realize he had to bulk up a bit, but by the time he fought Liston he was already 210 and he was a fit 210 at that - certainly big and strong enough to compete with the heavies of his day.

Re the punishment, those last few fights with Frazier, Norton, and Shavers...just hard to watch. That's where he got his brains battered.

Those last fights that he had, especially with Holmes were sad to watch.

In fact, I turned off that fight because I couldn't bear to watch it. Especially when I recalled seeing him fight live during his prime years.

 

[rightwinger]

I agree that he was not necessarily a one-punch knockout artist, but he didn't have to be. He could wear fighters out physically and mentally.

Ali had a one punch knock-out against Liston in their second fight
The famous “phantom punch” that wouldn’t have crushed a grape.

The punch hit Liston right on the temple and put him down like he was shot. When Liston tried to get up, he was still stunned and dropped down still on Queer Street

 

[katsteve2012]

Ali had a one punch knock-out against Liston in their second fight
The famous “phantom punch” that wouldn’t have crushed a grape.

The punch hit Liston right on the temple and put him down like he was shot. When Liston tried to get up, he was still stunned and dropped down still on Queer Street

If you watch the replay in slow motion, you'll see Listons back foot lift off the canvas after the punch lands.

 

[rupol2000]

Pendulum peekaboo style that he had pretty much abandoned by 1989

Slippery liar, did we talk about until what year Tyson was successful? We talked about how you don't know shit about boxing

And again, name me an elite heavyweight fighter that Tyson beat in his prime with that peekaboo style.

If you consider girls with holes between their legs like Ali or Klitschko or Byrd to be "elite fighters" then probably no one lol