Am I the only athiest on here, who when...

[Sheldon]

Yes a faith based belief. One that the adbocates of Atheism defend and proclaim with every bit as much passion and fervor as the most evangelistic Holy Roller Christian. But no more than I can prove to another person that there is a God, neither can the Atheist prove to another that there is not.

But I should have clarified that I wasn't speaking for Si Modo or Jillian and should have clarified that you would likely interpret your own remarks differently than I interpreted them.

But if I needed no other theory to convince me that Atheism is a religion as much as any other religion, it is because Atheists themselves have demanded to be recognized as a religion and have been declared by the courts to be so, including some groups having their own 501(c)(3) status.

Atheism Is Protected As a Religion, says Court For the purposes of protection under the First Amendment, the U.S. Court of
Appeals for the Second Circuit (May 13, 1997), decided the Orange County N.Y.
Department of Probation could not force Robert Warner, an atheist, to attend
religion-based alcoholic treatment programs against the dictates of his own
beliefs.

"The district court agreed with Mr. Warner's argument that these meetings involved
a substantial religious element. Participants were told to "believe that a Power
greater than ourselves could restore us," and that they must "turn our will and
our lives over to the care of God as we understand him." In addition, the "Step"
program ordered those participating to "Admit to God ... the exact nature of our
wrongs," be "entirely ready to have God remove all these defects ... (and) ask Him
to remove our shortcomings," and to seek "through prayer and meditation to improve
our conscious contact with God, as we (understand) Him. The meetings were also
punctuated with frequent prayers of a Christian nature."

Four months into the program Mr. Warner complained that, as an Atheist, he found
the meetings objectionable due to their religious nature. It was then that his
probation officer determined that Warner lacked sufficient commitment to the idea
of learning the techniques of remaining sober, even though he apparently had not
been found in violation of his probation orders to remain sober!

"Attorneys for Mr. Warner relied on a number of legal precedents, including:" [refer to link] http://www.atheists.org/flash.line/alanon1.htm Atheist Groups in Prison
But two years earlier,in the case of Kaufman v. McCaughtry, the 7th Circuit Court
of Appeals declared atheism a religion for purposes of protection under the
Establishment Clause. The court said prison officials violated an inmate's rights
because they did not treat atheism as a religion.

Atheism Is Protected As a Religion, says Court

And there is this site:
https://atheists.org/about

And there are variations on that such as the Internet Infifels.

The Secular Web is owned and operated by Internet Infidels Inc., a 501(c)(3) nonprofit educational organization dedicated to promoting and defending a naturalistic worldview on the Internet.

As defined by Paul Draper, naturalism is "the hypothesis that the natural world is a closed system, which means that nothing that is not a part of the natural world affects it." Thus, "naturalism implies that there are no supernatural entities"—including God.
Secular Web: Atheism, Agnosticism, Naturalism, Skepticism and Secularism

Interesting. So atheism is a legally considered a religion.

About half-way down the first link:

Court Made Good and Bad Decisions, says Atheist Blogger

An atheist blogger saw a good side and a bad side to this ruling. "What the Seventh Circuit Court of Appeals got right:" said Matt Dillahunty, was that "atheism is a 'religion' for First Amendment purposes is a somewhat different question than whether its adherents believe in a supreme being, or attend regular devotional services, or have a sacred Scripture."

What court got wrong, Dillahunty said, is that "Atheism is, among other things, a school of thought that takes a position on religion, the existence and importance of a supreme being, and a code of ethics." The Court in this case recognized that unless the prison system had prevented all gatherings of religion, preventing a group of atheists to gather was a violation of the Establishment Clause.

"Tthey didn't declare that atheism was a religion, they declared that atheism was afforded equal protection with religions under the Establishment Clause." [italics added]

How did the court come to this conclusion? The Supreme Court and Circuit Courts use the "Lemon" test, Lemon v. Kurtzman, a three-pronged test concerning the secular nature of government laws and regulations. ACA: Online Articles

That makes sense.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lemon_v._Kurtzman

The Court's decision in this case established the "Lemon test", which details the requirements for legislation concerning religion. It consists of three prongs:
The government's action must have a secular legislative purpose;
The government's action must not have the primary effect of either advancing or inhibiting religion;
The government's action must not result in an "excessive government entanglement" with religion.
If any of these 3 prongs are violated, the government's action is deemed unconstitutional under the Establishment Clause of the First Amendment to the United States Constitution.

 

[Foxfyre]

Yes a faith based belief. One that the adbocates of Atheism defend and proclaim with every bit as much passion and fervor as the most evangelistic Holy Roller Christian. But no more than I can prove to another person that there is a God, neither can the Atheist prove to another that there is not.

But I should have clarified that I wasn't speaking for Si Modo or Jillian and should have clarified that you would likely interpret your own remarks differently than I interpreted them.

But if I needed no other theory to convince me that Atheism is a religion as much as any other religion, it is because Atheists themselves have demanded to be recognized as a religion and have been declared by the courts to be so, including some groups having their own 501(c)(3) status.

Atheism Is Protected As a Religion, says Court For the purposes of protection under the First Amendment, the U.S. Court of
Appeals for the Second Circuit (May 13, 1997), decided the Orange County N.Y.
Department of Probation could not force Robert Warner, an atheist, to attend
religion-based alcoholic treatment programs against the dictates of his own
beliefs.

"The district court agreed with Mr. Warner's argument that these meetings involved
a substantial religious element. Participants were told to "believe that a Power
greater than ourselves could restore us," and that they must "turn our will and
our lives over to the care of God as we understand him." In addition, the "Step"
program ordered those participating to "Admit to God ... the exact nature of our
wrongs," be "entirely ready to have God remove all these defects ... (and) ask Him
to remove our shortcomings," and to seek "through prayer and meditation to improve
our conscious contact with God, as we (understand) Him. The meetings were also
punctuated with frequent prayers of a Christian nature."

Four months into the program Mr. Warner complained that, as an Atheist, he found
the meetings objectionable due to their religious nature. It was then that his
probation officer determined that Warner lacked sufficient commitment to the idea
of learning the techniques of remaining sober, even though he apparently had not
been found in violation of his probation orders to remain sober!

"Attorneys for Mr. Warner relied on a number of legal precedents, including:" [refer to link] http://www.atheists.org/flash.line/alanon1.htm Atheist Groups in Prison
But two years earlier,in the case of Kaufman v. McCaughtry, the 7th Circuit Court
of Appeals declared atheism a religion for purposes of protection under the
Establishment Clause. The court said prison officials violated an inmate's rights
because they did not treat atheism as a religion.

Atheism Is Protected As a Religion, says Court

And there is this site:
https://atheists.org/about

And there are variations on that such as the Internet Infifels.

Interesting. So atheism is a legally considered a religion.

About half-way down the first link:

Court Made Good and Bad Decisions, says Atheist Blogger

An atheist blogger saw a good side and a bad side to this ruling. "What the Seventh Circuit Court of Appeals got right:" said Matt Dillahunty, was that "atheism is a 'religion' for First Amendment purposes is a somewhat different question than whether its adherents believe in a supreme being, or attend regular devotional services, or have a sacred Scripture."

What court got wrong, Dillahunty said, is that "Atheism is, among other things, a school of thought that takes a position on religion, the existence and importance of a supreme being, and a code of ethics." The Court in this case recognized that unless the prison system had prevented all gatherings of religion, preventing a group of atheists to gather was a violation of the Establishment Clause.

"Tthey didn't declare that atheism was a religion, they declared that atheism was afforded equal protection with religions under the Establishment Clause." [italics added]

How did the court come to this conclusion? The Supreme Court and Circuit Courts use the "Lemon" test, Lemon v. Kurtzman, a three-pronged test concerning the secular nature of government laws and regulations. ACA: Online Articles

That makes sense.


Lemon v. Kurtzman - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The Court's decision in this case established the "Lemon test", which details the requirements for legislation concerning religion. It consists of three prongs:
The government's action must have a secular legislative purpose;
The government's action must not have the primary effect of either advancing or inhibiting religion;
The government's action must not result in an "excessive government entanglement" with religion.
If any of these 3 prongs are violated, the government's action is deemed unconstitutional under the Establishment Clause of the First Amendment to the United States Constitution.

And where the Blogger went wrong was in assuming that 'religion' requires belief in a supreme being. Buddhists do not believe in a supreme being but who will dare say that Buddhism is not a religion?

Raelism is also considered a religion based on three primary points: God does not exist - extra terrestrials or or Elohim made the Earth and all that is in it. Humans mistook Elohim as "gods" and distorted the teachings. The religion seeks to restore the original potenital and achieve global peace. Raelians call themselves Atheists. I think it was 2004 they declared the "International Year of Atheism." The last time I looked I think they had 50 thousand or so members.

Anything that claims to be a higher form of thinking or being or a higher spiritual plain is, at least by my interpretation, a religion. And Atheism certainly qualifies for that.

 

[mudwhistle]

Maybe if you read and comprehended the Bible you'd already know the answer to that.

It's pretty straight forward.

I'm just saying.....

So, if I read the ahistorical ramblings, myths and fairy tales of stone age Palestinians I'd find an answer...doubt that

Course if you think it's Bullshit I doubt you'll learn anything.

You're not open to it so how can you expect anything other bullshit in...bullshit out.

 

[mudwhistle]

It's really none of their business to stop people from believing in fantasies. And believing in a fantasy doesn't make one less smart. After all....Star Trek became the inspiration for cell phones. What was once fantasy is now reality.

So it was a trekkie who picked up his phone and thought: gee, I could be like captain Kirk if I could just find a way to lose the cord?
I wonder if he was wearing some Spock ears at the time?

If nobody imagined it then it never would have happened.

Aren't Engineers science geeks at heart anyway?

 

[mudwhistle]

Offering to brainwash you is a positive intent?

Athiests are doing you and the world a service by attempting to make the human species smarter by pointing out that basing one's life on fantasy is childish and ultimately dangerous. That is a positive effort.

No. It would be nice if they stopped there...but recently they've been attempting to take God out of our lives even though it's against the law to do so.

It's really none of their business to stop people from believing in fantasies. And believing in a fantasy doesn't make one less smart. After all....Star Trek became the inspiration for cell phones. What was once fantasy is now reality.

WOW!!!!

How can someone "take" god out of your life? You are free to think anything you want. You are also free to gather in your churches and tell each other and convince each other that your invisible freind is real. What reasonable reality based humans reject is the god squads constant interfenence in the progress of knowledge and the freedom to chose how others want their lives. Just the interference in the world wide effort to offer birth control to desperately poor communities causes harm that actually ends up killing millions of real humans by starvation. That is REAL harm my freind.

The cell phone excuse is funny. That is the strangest example of faith/reality I think I have ever seen.

Not strange at all...I just put in easy to understand terminology using an example.

Another one is when an Atheist told me he didn't believe in anything he couldn't see and I just asked him if he believed in Air. How bout viruses. I asked him how he knew the world was round or the Earth revolves around the Sun. He shut up pretty quickly. Unless someone told you these things you wouldn't know they were true. Well someone told me about Jesus and I believe him so that's where it stands.

Obama told you he wasn't going to take over GM you probably believed him. How stupid can you get...huh??

 

[Adamo]

It's really none of their business to stop people from believing in fantasies. And believing in a fantasy doesn't make one less smart. After all....Star Trek became the inspiration for cell phones. What was once fantasy is now reality.

So it was a trekkie who picked up his phone and thought: gee, I could be like captain Kirk if I could just find a way to lose the cord?
I wonder if he was wearing some Spock ears at the time?

If nobody imagined it then it never would have happened.

Aren't Engineers science geeks at heart anyway?

So that's your example to support believing in fantasies is a smart thing to do?

 

[Dr Grump]

Another one is when an Atheist told me he didn't believe in anything he couldn't see and I just asked him if he believed in Air. How bout viruses. I asked him how he knew the world was round or the Earth revolves around the Sun. He shut up pretty quickly. Unless someone told you these things you wouldn't know they were true. Well someone told me about Jesus and I believe him so that's where it stands. ??

You can see viruses under a microscope

you can do experiments to prove what is IN air and that it exists (don't believe me? Go into a sealed room and get somebody to suck all the air out. See what happens..

Satellites show that the Earth is of a round shape, and the position of the sun in the sky as well as astronomers and scientists have shown that the Earth revolves around the sun. There is ample evidence to support these FACTS. There is no evidence of a god, only faith...

Next.....

 

[Valerie]

Another one is when an Atheist told me he didn't believe in anything he couldn't see and I just asked him if he believed in Air. How bout viruses. I asked him how he knew the world was round or the Earth revolves around the Sun. He shut up pretty quickly. Unless someone told you these things you wouldn't know they were true. Well someone told me about Jesus and I believe him so that's where it stands. ??

You can see viruses under a microscope

you can do experiments to prove what is IN air and that it exists (don't believe me? Go into a sealed room and get somebody to suck all the air out. See what happens..

Satellites show that the Earth is of a round shape, and the position of the sun in the sky as well as astronomers and scientists have shown that the Earth revolves around the sun. There is ample evidence to support these FACTS. There is no evidence of a god, only faith...

Next.....

Maybe faith could be considered evidence of God.

 

[uscitizen]

I really love that: Just look around and how can you say god did not make all of this?

Probably (sometimes) the way a house dog thinks about humans.

 

[mudwhistle]

So it was a trekkie who picked up his phone and thought: gee, I could be like captain Kirk if I could just find a way to lose the cord?
I wonder if he was wearing some Spock ears at the time?

If nobody imagined it then it never would have happened.

Aren't Engineers science geeks at heart anyway?

So that's your example to support believing in fantasies is a smart thing to do?

Sigh.........I guess. Can't figure it out...huh?

 

[Father Time]

...they read posts by the true-blue god botherers (ie, The Light), it only reinforces the fact there is no god?

No. How passionate people are about something doesn't speak to the likelihood they are right (or wrong).

And if by some minor miracle it turns out that there is some sort of god out there, he or she would be sorely disappointed with the quality of his or her recruits

I'd imagine God facepalming a bunch.

 

[uscitizen]

"I'd imagine God facepalming a bunch. "

I understand the sentiment, but God doing facepalms?????
It is written that he already knows everything past present and future.
Why would he be suprised or dissapointed?

Sounds kinds boring actually. I wonder if God has any fun?

Ohh wait, Sarah Palin and Glen Beck, yes God has a great sense of humor.

 

[mudwhistle]

Another one is when an Atheist told me he didn't believe in anything he couldn't see and I just asked him if he believed in Air. How bout viruses. I asked him how he knew the world was round or the Earth revolves around the Sun. He shut up pretty quickly. Unless someone told you these things you wouldn't know they were true. Well someone told me about Jesus and I believe him so that's where it stands. ??

You can see viruses under a microscope

you can do experiments to prove what is IN air and that it exists (don't believe me? Go into a sealed room and get somebody to suck all the air out. See what happens..

Satellites show that the Earth is of a round shape, and the position of the sun in the sky as well as astronomers and scientists have shown that the Earth revolves around the sun. There is ample evidence to support these FACTS. There is no evidence of a god, only faith...

Next.....

Let's assume you know nothing about these facts. Satellites don't exist, microscopes don't exist. Don't you have to search for answers in all of these examples on your own to know they really exist? You have to at least make an effort to discover. When it comes to air, viruses, the Earth, and the Sun you have to look for something that you may not have already known existed. It has to be discovered. Curiosity caused us to discover them. If you have no curiosity for why we're here then you won't discover anything.

The problem with your argument is that you believe nobody ever saw evidence that he existed..which isn't true because those who wrote some of the books of the Bible saw actual evidence that God exists. The parting of the Red Sea, the writing of the 10 Commandments, the resurrection of Christ. They saw it with their own eyes.

 

[Againsheila]

...they read posts by the true-blue god botherers (ie, The Light), it only reinforces the fact there is no god? And if by some minor miracle it turns out that there is some sort of god out there, he or she would be sorely disappointed with the quality of his or her recruits

Am I the only person who thinks it's horrible to start a thread just to rag on someone's religion?

 

[uscitizen]

Another one is when an Atheist told me he didn't believe in anything he couldn't see and I just asked him if he believed in Air. How bout viruses. I asked him how he knew the world was round or the Earth revolves around the Sun. He shut up pretty quickly. Unless someone told you these things you wouldn't know they were true. Well someone told me about Jesus and I believe him so that's where it stands. ??

You can see viruses under a microscope

you can do experiments to prove what is IN air and that it exists (don't believe me? Go into a sealed room and get somebody to suck all the air out. See what happens..

Satellites show that the Earth is of a round shape, and the position of the sun in the sky as well as astronomers and scientists have shown that the Earth revolves around the sun. There is ample evidence to support these FACTS. There is no evidence of a god, only faith...

Next.....

Let's assume you know nothing about these facts. Don't you have to search for answers in all of these examples? You have to at least make an effort to discover. When it comes to air, viruses, the Earth, and the Sun you have to look for something that you may not have already known existed. It has to be discovered. Curiosity caused us to discover them. If you have no curiosity for why we're here then you won't discover anything.

The problem with your argument is that you believe nobody ever saw evidence that he existed..which isn't true because those who wrote some of the books of the Bible saw actual evidence that God exists. The parting of the Red Sea, the writing of the 10 Commandments, the resurrection of Christ. They saw it with their own eyes.

Or so they say.
And according to the bible they gained great status for the most part for what they said they saw.

 

[uscitizen]

...they read posts by the true-blue god botherers (ie, The Light), it only reinforces the fact there is no god? And if by some minor miracle it turns out that there is some sort of god out there, he or she would be sorely disappointed with the quality of his or her recruits

Am I the only person who thinks it's horrible to start a thread just to rag on someone's religion?

It would be in normal circles, this is however USMB.

Are any of us regular posters normal?

 

[jillian]

...they read posts by the true-blue god botherers (ie, The Light), it only reinforces the fact there is no god? And if by some minor miracle it turns out that there is some sort of god out there, he or she would be sorely disappointed with the quality of his or her recruits

Am I the only person who thinks it's horrible to start a thread just to rag on someone's religion?

he's not ragging on any particular religion. he's stating that he doesn't believe in any religion.

is that any worse than the threads that pronounce that if you don't say the right prayers then you go to hell?

 

[jillian]

Another one is when an Atheist told me he didn't believe in anything he couldn't see and I just asked him if he believed in Air. How bout viruses. I asked him how he knew the world was round or the Earth revolves around the Sun. He shut up pretty quickly. Unless someone told you these things you wouldn't know they were true. Well someone told me about Jesus and I believe him so that's where it stands. ??

You can see viruses under a microscope

you can do experiments to prove what is IN air and that it exists (don't believe me? Go into a sealed room and get somebody to suck all the air out. See what happens..

Satellites show that the Earth is of a round shape, and the position of the sun in the sky as well as astronomers and scientists have shown that the Earth revolves around the sun. There is ample evidence to support these FACTS. There is no evidence of a god, only faith...

Next.....

Maybe faith could be considered evidence of God.

i'm not sure belief is indicia of existence. no matter how much i try to believe i'm 5 foot 8, i'm not.

 

[uscitizen]

...they read posts by the true-blue god botherers (ie, The Light), it only reinforces the fact there is no god? And if by some minor miracle it turns out that there is some sort of god out there, he or she would be sorely disappointed with the quality of his or her recruits

Am I the only person who thinks it's horrible to start a thread just to rag on someone's religion?

he's not ragging on any particular religion. he's stating that he doesn't believe in any religion.

is that any worse than the threads that pronounce that if you don't say the right prayers then you go to hell?

You mean like Catholics are going to burn in hell for drinking and gambling?

 

[uscitizen]

Another one is when an Atheist told me he didn't believe in anything he couldn't see and I just asked him if he believed in Air. How bout viruses. I asked him how he knew the world was round or the Earth revolves around the Sun. He shut up pretty quickly. Unless someone told you these things you wouldn't know they were true. Well someone told me about Jesus and I believe him so that's where it stands. ??

You can see viruses under a microscope

you can do experiments to prove what is IN air and that it exists (don't believe me? Go into a sealed room and get somebody to suck all the air out. See what happens..

Satellites show that the Earth is of a round shape, and the position of the sun in the sky as well as astronomers and scientists have shown that the Earth revolves around the sun. There is ample evidence to support these FACTS. There is no evidence of a god, only faith...

Next.....

Maybe faith could be considered evidence of God.

If so among small children Santa is just as real as God.