Americans prefer to live where they can own guns and protect themselves...thank goodness.....

[2aguy]

Wrong brain...230 criminals killed....many more are shot...most are driven off and aren't counted...since no shots were fired....

And the average number of times Americans use guns to stop or prevent violent criminal attack and save lives...2 million...that is quite a bit more than injuries and accidents...which would be (using your 17,000) 17,000 non fatal accidents with guns and only 505 accidental gun deaths

And those 505 accidents...come from over 320 million guns in private hands in 90 million homes with over 11.1 million people actually carrying guns for self defense.....so you point brain is...pointless........millions of people with access to guns, 90 million....and only 505 killed in accidents......and 2 million people using them to stop criminals....a win win....

The 2 million # is a completely made up number based on nothing.

Actually, as a gun grabber...you are wrong.....the 2 million number is based on 40 years of research...over 19 studies on the topic of using guns for self defense done by separate researchers in criminology and economics, both public and private studies, and many of the studies done by anti gun researchers...including the famous Dr. Gary Kleck who was anti gun when he did his famous research....

It is bullshit.

Right on time....emote...not reason.....or proof......should I start the countdown where you use the words "Fetish", "Penis" or "compensating"?

Here's proof. "These sorts of biases, which are inherent in reporting self-defense incidents, can lead to nonsensical results. In several crime categories, for example, gun owners would have to protect themselves more than 100 percent of the time for Kleck and Getz’s estimates to make sense. For example, guns were allegedly used in self-defense in 845,000 burglaries, according to Kleck and Getz. However, from reliable victimization surveys, we know that there were fewer than 1.3 million burglaries where someone was in the home at the time of the crime, and only 33 percent of these had occupants who weren’t sleeping. From surveys on firearm ownership, we also know that 42 percent of U.S. households owned firearms at the time of the survey. Even if burglars only rob houses of gun owners, and those gun owners use their weapons in self-defense every single time they are awake, the 845,000 statistic cited in Kleck and Gertz’s paper is simply mathematically impossible." Armedwithreason.com.

You know hemenway...where you got this crap from is an actual hack...right? He has actually been discredited in his methods......right? He is closely tied to anti gun groups and his research is biased...while Kleck was an anti gun researcher and member of the ACLU and several other lefty organizations.....

 

[2aguy]

Actually, as a gun grabber...you are wrong.....the 2 million number is based on 40 years of research...over 19 studies on the topic of using guns for self defense done by separate researchers in criminology and economics, both public and private studies, and many of the studies done by anti gun researchers...including the famous Dr. Gary Kleck who was anti gun when he did his famous research....

It is bullshit.

Right on time....emote...not reason.....or proof......should I start the countdown where you use the words "Fetish", "Penis" or "compensating"?

Here's proof. "These sorts of biases, which are inherent in reporting self-defense incidents, can lead to nonsensical results. In several crime categories, for example, gun owners would have to protect themselves more than 100 percent of the time for Kleck and Getz’s estimates to make sense. For example, guns were allegedly used in self-defense in 845,000 burglaries, according to Kleck and Getz. However, from reliable victimization surveys, we know that there were fewer than 1.3 million burglaries where someone was in the home at the time of the crime, and only 33 percent of these had occupants who weren’t sleeping. From surveys on firearm ownership, we also know that 42 percent of U.S. households owned firearms at the time of the survey. Even if burglars only rob houses of gun owners, and those gun owners use their weapons in self-defense every single time they are awake, the 845,000 statistic cited in Kleck and Gertz’s paper is simply mathematically impossible." Armedwithreason.com.

Moron....you didn't read Kleck did you...he explains all of that in his defense of his research...they are using the National Crime Victimization survey to rebut his research...not telling you that they miss huge numbers of crimes....and are way off on the very things they are trying to research....you are a fucking moron......try reading the research and not anti gun assholes......who actually do lie....

You spitting all over your screen? Seem a little agitated. Feel the need to shoot something? Probably fire off a few rounds and call the police with a fake defensive use claim.

And of course as a gun grabber you don't realize that concealed carry permit holders are more law abiding than the average citizen and even more law abiding than sworn police officers.....but just repeat whatever the gun grabbers tell you to spew........

 

[2aguy]

Brain...my number is in the middle.....so it is neither the highest or lowest number found...therefore it is not a fantasy number..there are studies that found more and studies that found less.....and they were done by different researchers over 40 years....my number is the average number of defensive gun uses each year....2 million....


And I am out......

Average isn't in the middle dumb dumb. You took highly inaccurate surveys and averaged them making a more inaccurate fantasy number. Again the vast majority of your own studies counter your claim. Your number is complete fantasy.

I won't even get into how crime has fallen 30% since most of your very old surveys were done. Fewer crimes mean fewer defenses obviously.

The two million number is based on one survey from 1993. " In 1992, Gary Kleck and Marc Getz, criminologists at Florida State University, conducted a random digit-dial survey to establish the annual number of defensive gun uses in the United States. They surveyed 5,000 individuals, asking them if they had used a firearm in self-defense in the past year and, if so, for what reason and to what effect. Sixty-six incidences of defensive gun use were reported from the sample. The researchers then extrapolated their findings to the entire U.S. population, resulting in an estimate of between 1 million and 2.5 million defensive gun uses per year." It has been thoroughly debunked as a completely unscientific poll. You don't lie very well.

No it isn't......take the 10 non military, non police surveys and average them...you get 2 million...I don't lie moron.....and Kleck's research has never been debunked....the gun grabbers say "I debunk thee" thinking that is all it takes to discredit his work...but they haven't touched his methods. And of course his isn't the only research is it moron..........look at the actual number of studies....16 cited in just his paper and I listed all of those....so, moron......you are wrong.....and even the anti gun clinton Justice Dept. survey...also listed moron....and not kleck's research, put the number at 1.5 million....moron....and they weren't pro gun guys...they were anti gun guys who did that one....moron.....

Do you have Tourette's?

No...I have a bad case of discussing guns with multiple gun grabbers in one sitting...the lack of reason and a lack of understanding the truth and reality gets frustrating.....you guys really are morons.....

You have a bad case of making shit up.

I have actual research, you have an anti gun hack......and you say I am making things up.....if you gun grabbers didn't lie and emote you couldn't discuss the issue.....

 

[Brain357]

The 2 million # is a completely made up number based on nothing.

Actually, as a gun grabber...you are wrong.....the 2 million number is based on 40 years of research...over 19 studies on the topic of using guns for self defense done by separate researchers in criminology and economics, both public and private studies, and many of the studies done by anti gun researchers...including the famous Dr. Gary Kleck who was anti gun when he did his famous research....

It is bullshit.

Right on time....emote...not reason.....or proof......should I start the countdown where you use the words "Fetish", "Penis" or "compensating"?

Here's proof. "These sorts of biases, which are inherent in reporting self-defense incidents, can lead to nonsensical results. In several crime categories, for example, gun owners would have to protect themselves more than 100 percent of the time for Kleck and Getz’s estimates to make sense. For example, guns were allegedly used in self-defense in 845,000 burglaries, according to Kleck and Getz. However, from reliable victimization surveys, we know that there were fewer than 1.3 million burglaries where someone was in the home at the time of the crime, and only 33 percent of these had occupants who weren’t sleeping. From surveys on firearm ownership, we also know that 42 percent of U.S. households owned firearms at the time of the survey. Even if burglars only rob houses of gun owners, and those gun owners use their weapons in self-defense every single time they are awake, the 845,000 statistic cited in Kleck and Gertz’s paper is simply mathematically impossible." Armedwithreason.com.

Moron....you didn't read Kleck did you...he explains all of that in his defense of his research...they are using the National Crime Victimization survey to rebut his research...not telling you that they miss huge numbers of crimes....and are way off on the very things they are trying to research....you are a fucking moron......try reading the research and not anti gun assholes......who actually do lie....

Yes Kleck defending his own study seems to be all you have. Of course he defends his own study. Where is anything from the real world?

 

[Brain357]

They didn't arrive at a number they just stated what other studies had found. And they included the ncvs.

You have arrived at a number which is more wrong. The vast majority of your own studies say your estimate is way too high.

Nothing in the real world supports your fantasy numbers.

Brain...my number is in the middle.....so it is neither the highest or lowest number found...therefore it is not a fantasy number..there are studies that found more and studies that found less.....and they were done by different researchers over 40 years....my number is the average number of defensive gun uses each year....2 million....


And I am out......

Average isn't in the middle dumb dumb. You took highly inaccurate surveys and averaged them making a more inaccurate fantasy number. Again the vast majority of your own studies counter your claim. Your number is complete fantasy.

I won't even get into how crime has fallen 30% since most of your very old surveys were done. Fewer crimes mean fewer defenses obviously.

The two million number is based on one survey from 1993. " In 1992, Gary Kleck and Marc Getz, criminologists at Florida State University, conducted a random digit-dial survey to establish the annual number of defensive gun uses in the United States. They surveyed 5,000 individuals, asking them if they had used a firearm in self-defense in the past year and, if so, for what reason and to what effect. Sixty-six incidences of defensive gun use were reported from the sample. The researchers then extrapolated their findings to the entire U.S. population, resulting in an estimate of between 1 million and 2.5 million defensive gun uses per year." It has been thoroughly debunked as a completely unscientific poll. You don't lie very well.

No it isn't......take the 10 non military, non police surveys and average them...you get 2 million...I don't lie moron.....and Kleck's research has never been debunked....the gun grabbers say "I debunk thee" thinking that is all it takes to discredit his work...but they haven't touched his methods. And of course his isn't the only research is it moron..........look at the actual number of studies....16 cited in just his paper and I listed all of those....so, moron......you are wrong.....and even the anti gun clinton Justice Dept. survey...also listed moron....and not kleck's research, put the number at 1.5 million....moron....and they weren't pro gun guys...they were anti gun guys who did that one....moron.....

Do you have Tourette's?

No...I have a bad case of discussing guns with multiple gun grabbers in one sitting...the lack of reason and a lack of understanding the truth and reality gets frustrating.....you guys really are morons.....

You have nothing from reality. All the facts from reality are counter to your claims.

 

[Brain357]

The 2 million # is a completely made up number based on nothing.

Actually, as a gun grabber...you are wrong.....the 2 million number is based on 40 years of research...over 19 studies on the topic of using guns for self defense done by separate researchers in criminology and economics, both public and private studies, and many of the studies done by anti gun researchers...including the famous Dr. Gary Kleck who was anti gun when he did his famous research....

It is bullshit.

Right on time....emote...not reason.....or proof......should I start the countdown where you use the words "Fetish", "Penis" or "compensating"?

Here's proof. "These sorts of biases, which are inherent in reporting self-defense incidents, can lead to nonsensical results. In several crime categories, for example, gun owners would have to protect themselves more than 100 percent of the time for Kleck and Getz’s estimates to make sense. For example, guns were allegedly used in self-defense in 845,000 burglaries, according to Kleck and Getz. However, from reliable victimization surveys, we know that there were fewer than 1.3 million burglaries where someone was in the home at the time of the crime, and only 33 percent of these had occupants who weren’t sleeping. From surveys on firearm ownership, we also know that 42 percent of U.S. households owned firearms at the time of the survey. Even if burglars only rob houses of gun owners, and those gun owners use their weapons in self-defense every single time they are awake, the 845,000 statistic cited in Kleck and Gertz’s paper is simply mathematically impossible." Armedwithreason.com.

You know hemenway...where you got this crap from is an actual hack...right? He has actually been discredited in his methods......right? He is closely tied to anti gun groups and his research is biased...while Kleck was an anti gun researcher and member of the ACLU and several other lefty organizations.....

No he actually makes a lot of sense. He uses a lot of real world facts to show how wrong Kleck is. Kleck wants us to believe more crimes are defended than are committed. Nobody should believe that silliness.

 

[2aguy]

Brain...my number is in the middle.....so it is neither the highest or lowest number found...therefore it is not a fantasy number..there are studies that found more and studies that found less.....and they were done by different researchers over 40 years....my number is the average number of defensive gun uses each year....2 million....


And I am out......

Average isn't in the middle dumb dumb. You took highly inaccurate surveys and averaged them making a more inaccurate fantasy number. Again the vast majority of your own studies counter your claim. Your number is complete fantasy.

I won't even get into how crime has fallen 30% since most of your very old surveys were done. Fewer crimes mean fewer defenses obviously.

The two million number is based on one survey from 1993. " In 1992, Gary Kleck and Marc Getz, criminologists at Florida State University, conducted a random digit-dial survey to establish the annual number of defensive gun uses in the United States. They surveyed 5,000 individuals, asking them if they had used a firearm in self-defense in the past year and, if so, for what reason and to what effect. Sixty-six incidences of defensive gun use were reported from the sample. The researchers then extrapolated their findings to the entire U.S. population, resulting in an estimate of between 1 million and 2.5 million defensive gun uses per year." It has been thoroughly debunked as a completely unscientific poll. You don't lie very well.

No it isn't......take the 10 non military, non police surveys and average them...you get 2 million...I don't lie moron.....and Kleck's research has never been debunked....the gun grabbers say "I debunk thee" thinking that is all it takes to discredit his work...but they haven't touched his methods. And of course his isn't the only research is it moron..........look at the actual number of studies....16 cited in just his paper and I listed all of those....so, moron......you are wrong.....and even the anti gun clinton Justice Dept. survey...also listed moron....and not kleck's research, put the number at 1.5 million....moron....and they weren't pro gun guys...they were anti gun guys who did that one....moron.....

Do you have Tourette's?

No...I have a bad case of discussing guns with multiple gun grabbers in one sitting...the lack of reason and a lack of understanding the truth and reality gets frustrating.....you guys really are morons.....

You have a bad case of making shit up.

This is what hemenway used to rebutt Kleck and the other 16 studies on defensive gun use...hemenway based his criticism using the NCVS........


National Crime Victimization Survey A new report finds that the Justice Department has been undercounting instances of rape and sexual assault.

How helpful, then, that the Justice Department asked the National Research Council (part of the National Academies, which also includes the National Academy of Sciences and the Institute of Medicine) to study how successfully the federal government measures rape. The answer has just arrived, in a report out Tuesday with the headline from the press release: “The National Crime Victimization Survey Is Likely Undercounting Rape and Sexual Assault.” We’re not talking about small fractions—we’re talking about the kind of potentially massive underestimate that the military and the Justice Department have warned about for years—and that could be throwing a wrench into the effort to do the most effective type of rape prevention.....

But here are the flaws that call the nice-sounding stats into doubt: The NCVS is designed to measure all kinds of crime victimization. The questions it poses about sexual violence are embedded among questions that ask about lots of other types of crime. For example:

So......the NCVS can't get an accurate account of what it is researching....how do we know this...the numbers are off...

There is, in fact, an existing survey that has many of the attributes the NCVS currently lacks. It’s administered by the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, and it’s called the National Intimate Partner and Sexual Violence Survey. (NISVS is the acronym. Apologies for the alphabet soup.)

NISVS “represents the public health perspective,” as Tuesday’s report puts it, and it asks questions about specific behavior, including whether the survey-taker was unable to consent to sex because he or she had been drinking or taking drugs. NISVS was first conducted in 2010, so it doesn’t go back in time the way the NCVS numbers do. But here’s the startling direct comparison between the two measures: NISVS counted 1.27 million total sexual acts of forced penetration for women over the past year (including completed, attempted, and alcohol or drug facilitated).

NCVS counted only 188,380 for rape and sexual assault. And the FBI, which collects its data from local law enforcement, and so only counts rapes and attempted rapes that have been reported as crimes, totaled only 85,593 for 2010.

 

[paddymurphy]

Average isn't in the middle dumb dumb. You took highly inaccurate surveys and averaged them making a more inaccurate fantasy number. Again the vast majority of your own studies counter your claim. Your number is complete fantasy.

I won't even get into how crime has fallen 30% since most of your very old surveys were done. Fewer crimes mean fewer defenses obviously.

The two million number is based on one survey from 1993. " In 1992, Gary Kleck and Marc Getz, criminologists at Florida State University, conducted a random digit-dial survey to establish the annual number of defensive gun uses in the United States. They surveyed 5,000 individuals, asking them if they had used a firearm in self-defense in the past year and, if so, for what reason and to what effect. Sixty-six incidences of defensive gun use were reported from the sample. The researchers then extrapolated their findings to the entire U.S. population, resulting in an estimate of between 1 million and 2.5 million defensive gun uses per year." It has been thoroughly debunked as a completely unscientific poll. You don't lie very well.

No it isn't......take the 10 non military, non police surveys and average them...you get 2 million...I don't lie moron.....and Kleck's research has never been debunked....the gun grabbers say "I debunk thee" thinking that is all it takes to discredit his work...but they haven't touched his methods. And of course his isn't the only research is it moron..........look at the actual number of studies....16 cited in just his paper and I listed all of those....so, moron......you are wrong.....and even the anti gun clinton Justice Dept. survey...also listed moron....and not kleck's research, put the number at 1.5 million....moron....and they weren't pro gun guys...they were anti gun guys who did that one....moron.....

Do you have Tourette's?

No...I have a bad case of discussing guns with multiple gun grabbers in one sitting...the lack of reason and a lack of understanding the truth and reality gets frustrating.....you guys really are morons.....

You have a bad case of making shit up.

I have actual research, you have an anti gun hack......and you say I am making things up.....if you gun grabbers didn't lie and emote you couldn't discuss the issue.....

No, you don't. Nyou lied and said the two mil number was based on forty years of research. It was not. It was based on two guys who had their researchers call five thousand people and ask those with guns if they used them in defense. Klerk later admitted that between one third and two thirds of the supposed defensive uses may have been illegal gun uses. You did not even know th name of the researchers. Garbage in- garbage out.

 

[2aguy]

Actually, as a gun grabber...you are wrong.....the 2 million number is based on 40 years of research...over 19 studies on the topic of using guns for self defense done by separate researchers in criminology and economics, both public and private studies, and many of the studies done by anti gun researchers...including the famous Dr. Gary Kleck who was anti gun when he did his famous research....

It is bullshit.

Right on time....emote...not reason.....or proof......should I start the countdown where you use the words "Fetish", "Penis" or "compensating"?

Here's proof. "These sorts of biases, which are inherent in reporting self-defense incidents, can lead to nonsensical results. In several crime categories, for example, gun owners would have to protect themselves more than 100 percent of the time for Kleck and Getz’s estimates to make sense. For example, guns were allegedly used in self-defense in 845,000 burglaries, according to Kleck and Getz. However, from reliable victimization surveys, we know that there were fewer than 1.3 million burglaries where someone was in the home at the time of the crime, and only 33 percent of these had occupants who weren’t sleeping. From surveys on firearm ownership, we also know that 42 percent of U.S. households owned firearms at the time of the survey. Even if burglars only rob houses of gun owners, and those gun owners use their weapons in self-defense every single time they are awake, the 845,000 statistic cited in Kleck and Gertz’s paper is simply mathematically impossible." Armedwithreason.com.

You know hemenway...where you got this crap from is an actual hack...right? He has actually been discredited in his methods......right? He is closely tied to anti gun groups and his research is biased...while Kleck was an anti gun researcher and member of the ACLU and several other lefty organizations.....

No he actually makes a lot of sense. He uses a lot of real world facts to show how wrong Kleck is. Kleck wants us to believe more crimes are defended than are committed. Nobody should believe that silliness.

No...hemenway used the NCVS...and they can't even count rapes and sexual assault accurately...the actual thing they ask about.....

 

[paddymurphy]

Average isn't in the middle dumb dumb. You took highly inaccurate surveys and averaged them making a more inaccurate fantasy number. Again the vast majority of your own studies counter your claim. Your number is complete fantasy.

I won't even get into how crime has fallen 30% since most of your very old surveys were done. Fewer crimes mean fewer defenses obviously.

The two million number is based on one survey from 1993. " In 1992, Gary Kleck and Marc Getz, criminologists at Florida State University, conducted a random digit-dial survey to establish the annual number of defensive gun uses in the United States. They surveyed 5,000 individuals, asking them if they had used a firearm in self-defense in the past year and, if so, for what reason and to what effect. Sixty-six incidences of defensive gun use were reported from the sample. The researchers then extrapolated their findings to the entire U.S. population, resulting in an estimate of between 1 million and 2.5 million defensive gun uses per year." It has been thoroughly debunked as a completely unscientific poll. You don't lie very well.

No it isn't......take the 10 non military, non police surveys and average them...you get 2 million...I don't lie moron.....and Kleck's research has never been debunked....the gun grabbers say "I debunk thee" thinking that is all it takes to discredit his work...but they haven't touched his methods. And of course his isn't the only research is it moron..........look at the actual number of studies....16 cited in just his paper and I listed all of those....so, moron......you are wrong.....and even the anti gun clinton Justice Dept. survey...also listed moron....and not kleck's research, put the number at 1.5 million....moron....and they weren't pro gun guys...they were anti gun guys who did that one....moron.....

Do you have Tourette's?

No...I have a bad case of discussing guns with multiple gun grabbers in one sitting...the lack of reason and a lack of understanding the truth and reality gets frustrating.....you guys really are morons.....

You have a bad case of making shit up.

This is what hemenway used to rebutt Kleck and the other 16 studies on defensive gun use...hemenway based his criticism using the NCVS........


National Crime Victimization Survey A new report finds that the Justice Department has been undercounting instances of rape and sexual assault.

How helpful, then, that the Justice Department asked the National Research Council (part of the National Academies, which also includes the National Academy of Sciences and the Institute of Medicine) to study how successfully the federal government measures rape. The answer has just arrived, in a report out Tuesday with the headline from the press release: “The National Crime Victimization Survey Is Likely Undercounting Rape and Sexual Assault.” We’re not talking about small fractions—we’re talking about the kind of potentially massive underestimate that the military and the Justice Department have warned about for years—and that could be throwing a wrench into the effort to do the most effective type of rape prevention.....

But here are the flaws that call the nice-sounding stats into doubt: The NCVS is designed to measure all kinds of crime victimization. The questions it poses about sexual violence are embedded among questions that ask about lots of other types of crime. For example:

So......the NCVS can't get an accurate account of what it is researching....how do we know this...the numbers are off...

There is, in fact, an existing survey that has many of the attributes the NCVS currently lacks. It’s administered by the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, and it’s called the National Intimate Partner and Sexual Violence Survey. (NISVS is the acronym. Apologies for the alphabet soup.)

NISVS “represents the public health perspective,” as Tuesday’s report puts it, and it asks questions about specific behavior, including whether the survey-taker was unable to consent to sex because he or she had been drinking or taking drugs. NISVS was first conducted in 2010, so it doesn’t go back in time the way the NCVS numbers do. But here’s the startling direct comparison between the two measures: NISVS counted 1.27 million total sexual acts of forced penetration for women over the past year (including completed, attempted, and alcohol or drug facilitated).

NCVS counted only 188,380 for rape and sexual assault. And the FBI, which collects its data from local law enforcement, and so only counts rapes and attempted rapes that have been reported as crimes, totaled only 85,593 for 2010.

 

[Brain357]

Average isn't in the middle dumb dumb. You took highly inaccurate surveys and averaged them making a more inaccurate fantasy number. Again the vast majority of your own studies counter your claim. Your number is complete fantasy.

I won't even get into how crime has fallen 30% since most of your very old surveys were done. Fewer crimes mean fewer defenses obviously.

The two million number is based on one survey from 1993. " In 1992, Gary Kleck and Marc Getz, criminologists at Florida State University, conducted a random digit-dial survey to establish the annual number of defensive gun uses in the United States. They surveyed 5,000 individuals, asking them if they had used a firearm in self-defense in the past year and, if so, for what reason and to what effect. Sixty-six incidences of defensive gun use were reported from the sample. The researchers then extrapolated their findings to the entire U.S. population, resulting in an estimate of between 1 million and 2.5 million defensive gun uses per year." It has been thoroughly debunked as a completely unscientific poll. You don't lie very well.

No it isn't......take the 10 non military, non police surveys and average them...you get 2 million...I don't lie moron.....and Kleck's research has never been debunked....the gun grabbers say "I debunk thee" thinking that is all it takes to discredit his work...but they haven't touched his methods. And of course his isn't the only research is it moron..........look at the actual number of studies....16 cited in just his paper and I listed all of those....so, moron......you are wrong.....and even the anti gun clinton Justice Dept. survey...also listed moron....and not kleck's research, put the number at 1.5 million....moron....and they weren't pro gun guys...they were anti gun guys who did that one....moron.....

Do you have Tourette's?

No...I have a bad case of discussing guns with multiple gun grabbers in one sitting...the lack of reason and a lack of understanding the truth and reality gets frustrating.....you guys really are morons.....

You have a bad case of making shit up.

This is what hemenway used to rebutt Kleck and the other 16 studies on defensive gun use...hemenway based his criticism using the NCVS........


National Crime Victimization Survey A new report finds that the Justice Department has been undercounting instances of rape and sexual assault.

How helpful, then, that the Justice Department asked the National Research Council (part of the National Academies, which also includes the National Academy of Sciences and the Institute of Medicine) to study how successfully the federal government measures rape. The answer has just arrived, in a report out Tuesday with the headline from the press release: “The National Crime Victimization Survey Is Likely Undercounting Rape and Sexual Assault.” We’re not talking about small fractions—we’re talking about the kind of potentially massive underestimate that the military and the Justice Department have warned about for years—and that could be throwing a wrench into the effort to do the most effective type of rape prevention.....

But here are the flaws that call the nice-sounding stats into doubt: The NCVS is designed to measure all kinds of crime victimization. The questions it poses about sexual violence are embedded among questions that ask about lots of other types of crime. For example:

So......the NCVS can't get an accurate account of what it is researching....how do we know this...the numbers are off...

There is, in fact, an existing survey that has many of the attributes the NCVS currently lacks. It’s administered by the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, and it’s called the National Intimate Partner and Sexual Violence Survey. (NISVS is the acronym. Apologies for the alphabet soup.)

NISVS “represents the public health perspective,” as Tuesday’s report puts it, and it asks questions about specific behavior, including whether the survey-taker was unable to consent to sex because he or she had been drinking or taking drugs. NISVS was first conducted in 2010, so it doesn’t go back in time the way the NCVS numbers do. But here’s the startling direct comparison between the two measures: NISVS counted 1.27 million total sexual acts of forced penetration for women over the past year (including completed, attempted, and alcohol or drug facilitated).

NCVS counted only 188,380 for rape and sexual assault. And the FBI, which collects its data from local law enforcement, and so only counts rapes and attempted rapes that have been reported as crimes, totaled only 85,593 for 2010.

In order to have a DGU you need a crime. Well unless you are kleck then you will count any use of a gun including intimidation and probably criminal. The NCVS would capture all DGUs. And it is a survey of 90k households. That is probably more than all your gun studies combined. Larger sample equals more accurate results.

 

[Brain357]

It is bullshit.

Right on time....emote...not reason.....or proof......should I start the countdown where you use the words "Fetish", "Penis" or "compensating"?

Here's proof. "These sorts of biases, which are inherent in reporting self-defense incidents, can lead to nonsensical results. In several crime categories, for example, gun owners would have to protect themselves more than 100 percent of the time for Kleck and Getz’s estimates to make sense. For example, guns were allegedly used in self-defense in 845,000 burglaries, according to Kleck and Getz. However, from reliable victimization surveys, we know that there were fewer than 1.3 million burglaries where someone was in the home at the time of the crime, and only 33 percent of these had occupants who weren’t sleeping. From surveys on firearm ownership, we also know that 42 percent of U.S. households owned firearms at the time of the survey. Even if burglars only rob houses of gun owners, and those gun owners use their weapons in self-defense every single time they are awake, the 845,000 statistic cited in Kleck and Gertz’s paper is simply mathematically impossible." Armedwithreason.com.

You know hemenway...where you got this crap from is an actual hack...right? He has actually been discredited in his methods......right? He is closely tied to anti gun groups and his research is biased...while Kleck was an anti gun researcher and member of the ACLU and several other lefty organizations.....

No he actually makes a lot of sense. He uses a lot of real world facts to show how wrong Kleck is. Kleck wants us to believe more crimes are defended than are committed. Nobody should believe that silliness.

No...hemenway used the NCVS...and they can't even count rapes and sexual assault accurately...the actual thing they ask about.....

He also used the CDC and many other sources. He discredited Kleck in many ways.

 

[2aguy]

No it isn't......take the 10 non military, non police surveys and average them...you get 2 million...I don't lie moron.....and Kleck's research has never been debunked....the gun grabbers say "I debunk thee" thinking that is all it takes to discredit his work...but they haven't touched his methods. And of course his isn't the only research is it moron..........look at the actual number of studies....16 cited in just his paper and I listed all of those....so, moron......you are wrong.....and even the anti gun clinton Justice Dept. survey...also listed moron....and not kleck's research, put the number at 1.5 million....moron....and they weren't pro gun guys...they were anti gun guys who did that one....moron.....

Do you have Tourette's?

No...I have a bad case of discussing guns with multiple gun grabbers in one sitting...the lack of reason and a lack of understanding the truth and reality gets frustrating.....you guys really are morons.....

You have a bad case of making shit up.

I have actual research, you have an anti gun hack......and you say I am making things up.....if you gun grabbers didn't lie and emote you couldn't discuss the issue.....

No, you don't. Nyou lied and said the two mil number was based on forty years of research. It was not. It was based on two guys who had their researchers call five thousand people and ask those with guns if they used them in defense. Klerk later admitted that between one third and two thirds of the supposed defensive uses may have been illegal gun uses. You did not even know th name of the researchers. Garbage in- garbage out.

Fuck head....I told you.....I averaged the 10 studies that did not include police and military self defense...try it yourself moron.....

Dipshit....I have been posting about Kleck for years......

And no...you, like brain are lying in what you are saying...Kleck said the "illegal" gun use were people carrying guns without permits.....he did not say they were criminals......he addressed that a few months ago in Politico....

 

[2aguy]

No it isn't......take the 10 non military, non police surveys and average them...you get 2 million...I don't lie moron.....and Kleck's research has never been debunked....the gun grabbers say "I debunk thee" thinking that is all it takes to discredit his work...but they haven't touched his methods. And of course his isn't the only research is it moron..........look at the actual number of studies....16 cited in just his paper and I listed all of those....so, moron......you are wrong.....and even the anti gun clinton Justice Dept. survey...also listed moron....and not kleck's research, put the number at 1.5 million....moron....and they weren't pro gun guys...they were anti gun guys who did that one....moron.....

Do you have Tourette's?

No...I have a bad case of discussing guns with multiple gun grabbers in one sitting...the lack of reason and a lack of understanding the truth and reality gets frustrating.....you guys really are morons.....

You have a bad case of making shit up.

This is what hemenway used to rebutt Kleck and the other 16 studies on defensive gun use...hemenway based his criticism using the NCVS........


National Crime Victimization Survey A new report finds that the Justice Department has been undercounting instances of rape and sexual assault.

How helpful, then, that the Justice Department asked the National Research Council (part of the National Academies, which also includes the National Academy of Sciences and the Institute of Medicine) to study how successfully the federal government measures rape. The answer has just arrived, in a report out Tuesday with the headline from the press release: “The National Crime Victimization Survey Is Likely Undercounting Rape and Sexual Assault.” We’re not talking about small fractions—we’re talking about the kind of potentially massive underestimate that the military and the Justice Department have warned about for years—and that could be throwing a wrench into the effort to do the most effective type of rape prevention.....

But here are the flaws that call the nice-sounding stats into doubt: The NCVS is designed to measure all kinds of crime victimization. The questions it poses about sexual violence are embedded among questions that ask about lots of other types of crime. For example:

So......the NCVS can't get an accurate account of what it is researching....how do we know this...the numbers are off...

There is, in fact, an existing survey that has many of the attributes the NCVS currently lacks. It’s administered by the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, and it’s called the National Intimate Partner and Sexual Violence Survey. (NISVS is the acronym. Apologies for the alphabet soup.)

NISVS “represents the public health perspective,” as Tuesday’s report puts it, and it asks questions about specific behavior, including whether the survey-taker was unable to consent to sex because he or she had been drinking or taking drugs. NISVS was first conducted in 2010, so it doesn’t go back in time the way the NCVS numbers do. But here’s the startling direct comparison between the two measures: NISVS counted 1.27 million total sexual acts of forced penetration for women over the past year (including completed, attempted, and alcohol or drug facilitated).

NCVS counted only 188,380 for rape and sexual assault. And the FBI, which collects its data from local law enforcement, and so only counts rapes and attempted rapes that have been reported as crimes, totaled only 85,593 for 2010.

In order to have a DGU you need a crime. Well unless you are kleck then you will count any use of a gun including intimidation and probably criminal. The NCVS would capture all DGUs. And it is a survey of 90k households. That is probably more than all your gun studies combined. Larger sample equals more accurate results.

brain...you are really dumb....if you use your gun and the guy runs away....no crime.....it can't be counted....the NCVS does not ask about using a gun for self defense.....it doesn't even use the word gun.....are you really that dense...or are you just being a moron......

 

[2aguy]

And for those interested...

kleck on hemenway and kellerman...

I included some page numbes....

Notice...the police foundation survey...not kleck...found 2.45 million defensive gun uses...and those two guys are anti gunners....



13, 109, 111, 113-114 (burglaries lie) 126 national inst. of Just. Police foundation survey2.45 million



https://www.saf.org/wp-content/uploads/journals/JFPP11.pdf

Here Kleck addresses hemenway's bullshit about the burglaries...

Hemenway argued that the NSDS estimates are implausible because this survey implied a number of DGUs occurring in connection with burglaries that exceeded the total number of burglaries of occupied residences estimated by the NCVS, and thus the DGU estimate was impossible, or at least implausibly high (p. 1441). This argument rested on an unstated assumption that the universe of DGU events sampled by the NSDS is a subset of the universe of crime events covered by the NCVS. However, Kleck and Gertz had explicitly warned in their paper that “a large share of the incidents covered by our survey are probably outside the scope of incidents that realistically are likely to be reported to the NCVS or police” (1995, p. 167). This is true because DGUs typically involve criminal behavior, such as unlawful gun possession, by the gun-using victim, who therefore is often unwilling to report the incident. Once it is recognized that many DGU events are outside the realm of crime incidents effectively covered by the NCVS, it is logically impossible to treat any NCVS estimates as imposing an upper limit on how many DGUs there plausibly could be.

Hemenway’s logic was also fallacious in assuming that one can cast doubt on conclusions based on a large body of data by deriving implausible implications from smaller subsets of the data. The NSDS estimates of total DGUs are likely to be fairly reliable partly because they are based on a very large (n=4,977) sample, while any estimates one might derive pertaining to one specific crime type are necessarily less reliable because they rely partly on a far smaller subsample, i.e. the c. 194 sample DGU cases, of which 40 were linked to burglaries.

Hemenway’s reductio ad absurdum logic is equivalent to arguing that Gallup presidential election polls cannot accurately estimate the share of the entire electorate voting for the Democratic candidate (something we know they can do, usually to within two percentage points––Gallup 1992) because they commonly yield implausible estimates for small subsets of the electorate, such as rural Hispanic Jews.

 

[Brain357]

Do you have Tourette's?

No...I have a bad case of discussing guns with multiple gun grabbers in one sitting...the lack of reason and a lack of understanding the truth and reality gets frustrating.....you guys really are morons.....

You have a bad case of making shit up.

This is what hemenway used to rebutt Kleck and the other 16 studies on defensive gun use...hemenway based his criticism using the NCVS........


National Crime Victimization Survey A new report finds that the Justice Department has been undercounting instances of rape and sexual assault.

How helpful, then, that the Justice Department asked the National Research Council (part of the National Academies, which also includes the National Academy of Sciences and the Institute of Medicine) to study how successfully the federal government measures rape. The answer has just arrived, in a report out Tuesday with the headline from the press release: “The National Crime Victimization Survey Is Likely Undercounting Rape and Sexual Assault.” We’re not talking about small fractions—we’re talking about the kind of potentially massive underestimate that the military and the Justice Department have warned about for years—and that could be throwing a wrench into the effort to do the most effective type of rape prevention.....

But here are the flaws that call the nice-sounding stats into doubt: The NCVS is designed to measure all kinds of crime victimization. The questions it poses about sexual violence are embedded among questions that ask about lots of other types of crime. For example:

So......the NCVS can't get an accurate account of what it is researching....how do we know this...the numbers are off...

There is, in fact, an existing survey that has many of the attributes the NCVS currently lacks. It’s administered by the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, and it’s called the National Intimate Partner and Sexual Violence Survey. (NISVS is the acronym. Apologies for the alphabet soup.)

NISVS “represents the public health perspective,” as Tuesday’s report puts it, and it asks questions about specific behavior, including whether the survey-taker was unable to consent to sex because he or she had been drinking or taking drugs. NISVS was first conducted in 2010, so it doesn’t go back in time the way the NCVS numbers do. But here’s the startling direct comparison between the two measures: NISVS counted 1.27 million total sexual acts of forced penetration for women over the past year (including completed, attempted, and alcohol or drug facilitated).

NCVS counted only 188,380 for rape and sexual assault. And the FBI, which collects its data from local law enforcement, and so only counts rapes and attempted rapes that have been reported as crimes, totaled only 85,593 for 2010.

In order to have a DGU you need a crime. Well unless you are kleck then you will count any use of a gun including intimidation and probably criminal. The NCVS would capture all DGUs. And it is a survey of 90k households. That is probably more than all your gun studies combined. Larger sample equals more accurate results.

brain...you are really dumb....if you use your gun and the guy runs away....no crime.....it can't be counted....the NCVS does not ask about using a gun for self defense.....it doesn't even use the word gun.....are you really that dense...or are you just being a moron......

You seem to be really dumb. The NCVS includes attempted crimes.

 

[2aguy]

And more on why hemenway is a hack....

In a second variety of this fallacious line of reasoning, Hemenway cited estimates of the number of gunshot wound (GSW) victims treated in emergency rooms and falsely claimed that “K-G report that 207,000 times per year the gun defender thought he wounded or killed the offender” (1997b, p. 1442). In fact, Kleck and Gertz did not compute or report this 207,000 estimate. Quite the contrary––they specifically cautioned against using NSDS data to generate such an estimate because an estimate of defensive woundings would be based (unlike the estimates of DGU frequency in general) on a small sample (the approximately 200 respondents who reported a DGU) and because NSDS interviewers had done no detailed questioning of

114Journal on Firearms Volume Eleven

respondents regarding why they thought that they had wounded their adversaries.

In any case, there is nothing even mildly inconsistent about this GSW estimate and emergency room data on persons treated for GSWs. Hemenway necessarily made the implicit assumption that DGU-linked woundings are entirely a subset of woundings treated in medical facilities. If one more plausibly assumes that most less serious DGU-linked woundings are not medically treated, the number of medically treated GSWs cannot be used as an upper limit on the number of DGUs that result in a wounding, since DGU-linked woundings would exist largely outside the set of medically treated GSWs. If, for example, the total annual number of GSWs, treated or untreated, was 400,000, there would be nothing implausible about 200,000 of them being DGU-linked, especially in light of the fact that the vast majority of victims of medically treated GSWs linked to alleged “assaults” are known criminals (Kleck 1997, Chapter 1).

It is unlikely that a criminal wounded by a victim during the commission of a crime would seek medical attention for any but the most life-threatening GSWs, since medical personnel are required by law to report treatment of GSWs to the police. Less than a tenth of assault GSWs are life-threatening (Kleck 1997, Chapter 1). Thus, almost all of the DGU-linked woundings of criminals probably lie outside the universe of GSWs treated in emergency rooms and other medical facilities. The number of medically treated GSWs therefore cannot serve as an upper limit on either the total number of GSWs or on the number that occur in connection with a crime victim’s DGU. In sum, since we do not know the total number of crime victimizations such as rapes or burglaries, or the total number of GSWs, we cannot possibly know if any given DGU estimate is implausibly large relative to these unknown (and possibly unknowable) quantities.

 

[Brain357]

Here is a new debunking of Kleck:
Here are the facts Kleck missed: According to his own survey more than 50 percent of respondents claim to have reported their defensive gun use to the police. This means we should find at least half of his 2.5 million annual Defensive Gun Uses (DGUs) in police reports alone. Instead, the most comprehensive nonpartisan effort to catalog police and media reports on DGUs by The Gun Violence Archive was barely able to find 1,600 in 2014. Where are the remaining 99.94 percent of Kleck’s supposed DGUs hiding?

Defensive Gun Use Gary Kleck Misfires Again Armed With Reason

 

[2aguy]

No...I have a bad case of discussing guns with multiple gun grabbers in one sitting...the lack of reason and a lack of understanding the truth and reality gets frustrating.....you guys really are morons.....

You have a bad case of making shit up.

This is what hemenway used to rebutt Kleck and the other 16 studies on defensive gun use...hemenway based his criticism using the NCVS........


National Crime Victimization Survey A new report finds that the Justice Department has been undercounting instances of rape and sexual assault.

How helpful, then, that the Justice Department asked the National Research Council (part of the National Academies, which also includes the National Academy of Sciences and the Institute of Medicine) to study how successfully the federal government measures rape. The answer has just arrived, in a report out Tuesday with the headline from the press release: “The National Crime Victimization Survey Is Likely Undercounting Rape and Sexual Assault.” We’re not talking about small fractions—we’re talking about the kind of potentially massive underestimate that the military and the Justice Department have warned about for years—and that could be throwing a wrench into the effort to do the most effective type of rape prevention.....

But here are the flaws that call the nice-sounding stats into doubt: The NCVS is designed to measure all kinds of crime victimization. The questions it poses about sexual violence are embedded among questions that ask about lots of other types of crime. For example:

So......the NCVS can't get an accurate account of what it is researching....how do we know this...the numbers are off...

There is, in fact, an existing survey that has many of the attributes the NCVS currently lacks. It’s administered by the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, and it’s called the National Intimate Partner and Sexual Violence Survey. (NISVS is the acronym. Apologies for the alphabet soup.)

NISVS “represents the public health perspective,” as Tuesday’s report puts it, and it asks questions about specific behavior, including whether the survey-taker was unable to consent to sex because he or she had been drinking or taking drugs. NISVS was first conducted in 2010, so it doesn’t go back in time the way the NCVS numbers do. But here’s the startling direct comparison between the two measures: NISVS counted 1.27 million total sexual acts of forced penetration for women over the past year (including completed, attempted, and alcohol or drug facilitated).

NCVS counted only 188,380 for rape and sexual assault. And the FBI, which collects its data from local law enforcement, and so only counts rapes and attempted rapes that have been reported as crimes, totaled only 85,593 for 2010.

In order to have a DGU you need a crime. Well unless you are kleck then you will count any use of a gun including intimidation and probably criminal. The NCVS would capture all DGUs. And it is a survey of 90k households. That is probably more than all your gun studies combined. Larger sample equals more accurate results.

brain...you are really dumb....if you use your gun and the guy runs away....no crime.....it can't be counted....the NCVS does not ask about using a gun for self defense.....it doesn't even use the word gun.....are you really that dense...or are you just being a moron......

You seem to be really dumb. The NCVS includes attempted crimes.

You are a moron brain...only a gun grabber like you would think that a survey that did not ask about defensive gun use would be more accurate than actual studies that specifically ask about wether the person used a gun for self defense......as if trying to find out how much orange juice people can be discovered by not asking people how much orange juice people drink...instead asking them about their driving habits and if they mention going shopping you also get them to say they bought juice.....you really need help....

 

[Brain357]

And more on why hemenway is a hack....

In a second variety of this fallacious line of reasoning, Hemenway cited estimates of the number of gunshot wound (GSW) victims treated in emergency rooms and falsely claimed that “K-G report that 207,000 times per year the gun defender thought he wounded or killed the offender” (1997b, p. 1442). In fact, Kleck and Gertz did not compute or report this 207,000 estimate. Quite the contrary––they specifically cautioned against using NSDS data to generate such an estimate because an estimate of defensive woundings would be based (unlike the estimates of DGU frequency in general) on a small sample (the approximately 200 respondents who reported a DGU) and because NSDS interviewers had done no detailed questioning of

114Journal on Firearms Volume Eleven

respondents regarding why they thought that they had wounded their adversaries.

In any case, there is nothing even mildly inconsistent about this GSW estimate and emergency room data on persons treated for GSWs. Hemenway necessarily made the implicit assumption that DGU-linked woundings are entirely a subset of woundings treated in medical facilities. If one more plausibly assumes that most less serious DGU-linked woundings are not medically treated, the number of medically treated GSWs cannot be used as an upper limit on the number of DGUs that result in a wounding, since DGU-linked woundings would exist largely outside the set of medically treated GSWs. If, for example, the total annual number of GSWs, treated or untreated, was 400,000, there would be nothing implausible about 200,000 of them being DGU-linked, especially in light of the fact that the vast majority of victims of medically treated GSWs linked to alleged “assaults” are known criminals (Kleck 1997, Chapter 1).

It is unlikely that a criminal wounded by a victim during the commission of a crime would seek medical attention for any but the most life-threatening GSWs, since medical personnel are required by law to report treatment of GSWs to the police. Less than a tenth of assault GSWs are life-threatening (Kleck 1997, Chapter 1). Thus, almost all of the DGU-linked woundings of criminals probably lie outside the universe of GSWs treated in emergency rooms and other medical facilities. The number of medically treated GSWs therefore cannot serve as an upper limit on either the total number of GSWs or on the number that occur in connection with a crime victim’s DGU. In sum, since we do not know the total number of crime victimizations such as rapes or burglaries, or the total number of GSWs, we cannot possibly know if any given DGU estimate is implausibly large relative to these unknown (and possibly unknowable) quantities.

Ah yes Kleck defending Kleck again. You have no facts from the real world, just a debunked Kleck study and well more Kleck.