America's coming civil war -- makers vs. takers Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/op

[kiwiman127]

Lets not go so far as to call it civil war but certainly between those of us who care about the United States and those that don't. Not that many of us are rich and I agree that those that are have a lot but most of them earned it. That is what this country is about, opportunity to get ahead on your own hard work, not get something handed to you.

Yup, you're referring to "The American Dream". But "The American Dream" is more a dream than ever before.

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The Loss of Upward Mobility in the U.S.

Economic mobility is becoming a more prominent issue in the 2012 Republican presidential race, and will likely be widely discussed in the general election. The GOP’s remaining top-tier candidates — Mitt Romney, Rick Santorum, Ron Paul and Newt Gingrich — have all sounded the alarm about American decline, promising to restore the “American Dream” and make the pursuit of happiness seem like more of a worthwhile endeavor (as Romney as consistently hammered on about recently). But what’s shocking is that rather than focusing on the American Dream these days, politicians and academics seem to be talking more about the European Dream.

Read more: The Loss of Upward Mobility in the U.S. | Moneyland | TIME.com

 

[flacaltenn]

So if we read this correctly, school teachers are takers. Policemen are takers. Firemen are takers. Those people work too. Never have I seen such a hatred for those serving us. My daughter teaches kindergarten. She's one of those takers.

No, not a taker -- they support communities where investment has created PRIVATE SECTOR jobs.

No private sector jobs --- no need for public sector jobs. We cannot all SERVICE each other and call it even. Stuff NEEDS to be consistently invented and created. Hard goods and soft goods --- not just public or private service jobs.

 

[flacaltenn]

No, that was the job of the op, I merely made note of it.

I wouldn't argue that spending on all fronts is beyond reasonable.

Interesting... So how far in debt due to overspending does America need to go before it is beyond reasonable? We're around 1.6 trillion annual deficit currently, do you feel something needs to be cut yet, if so, what and how much would that knock off a deficit that is due to break 2 Trillion soon? Maybe you’re the kind of person that believes taxing the rich will pay for the deficit, care to give us some numbers, like the tax rate and how much revenue it will pull a year, then deduct that microscopic number from the growing deficit for us so none of us have to do it for you.

Funny how the fascist republican big government party created the biggest government and debt in history and called it good under Bush and then tries to blame Obama for it. The conservatives got our credit rating lowered so they could play racist with the black president. The conservatives waste tax money on non issues and try to create Taliban style religious government to replace the rule of law. It's these whacked out conservatives that are not conservative in any way wanting to throw their debt onto future generations knowing the trailer trash they breed will have no way to pay for their conservative ponzi scam.

nice rhetoric.. "trailer trash", "racist", "whacked out" --- you did it all bud..

and you wonder why so many folks who are NOT rich --- vote Republican..

Ponder that -- and prosper..

 

[auditor0007]

America's coming civil war -- makers vs. takers | Fox News

Those were Abe Lincoln’s words in his first inaugural in 1861, as America was running headlong into civil war. Now we’re a house divided again and another civil war is coming, with the 2012 election as its Gettysburg.

Call it America’s coming civil war between the Makers and the Takers.

On one side are those who create wealth, America’s private sector–the very ones targeted by President Obama’s tax hikes announced Monday.

On the other are the public employee unions; left-leaning intelligentsia who see the growth of government as index of progress; and the millions of Americans now dependent on government through a growing network of government transfer payments, from Medicaid and Social Security to college loans and corporate bailouts and handouts (think GM and Solyndra).

Over the past century America’s private sector has been the source of productivity, innovation, creativity, and growth–and gave us the iPhone and iPad. The public sector has been the engine of entitlement, stagnation, and decline -- and gave us Detroit and the South Bronx.

Read more: America's coming civil war -- makers vs. takers | Fox News

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I somehow think that the left believes there is legitimacy to the growing number of people on government programs.

Just like the third and fourth generation welfare folks I knew in CA who got together right after the checks showed up and celebrated with a bag of weed.

Oh good Lord, what a bunch of bull. Makers and takers, lmao. The makers are the ones who are actually doing the work and being paid lower and lower wages while the takers are the ones who are calling the shots. There is absolutely nothing wrong with people becoming wealthy or even super wealthy, but there is a problem when those people do so at the expense of the working and middle class.

But there is some truth to the potential for civil war. Social wars are always preceded by a time when a small group of people gain an enormous amount of wealth and power at the expense of the rest of society. If you don't believe this, study history.

The envy is strong in this one.

What envy? I can't help that you can't understand that if you destroy the middle class, you destroy the entire economy. Rich people don't buy that much shit. The middle class and even the poor buy the vast majority of goods and services in this country. If you want super low tax rates and a society where there is a much smaller middle class, then check out Mexico. They have the low tax rates that you are hoping for. Not sure I would want to live there, but maybe for a super wealthy person like you, you might like it.

 

[flacaltenn]

Oh good Lord, what a bunch of bull. Makers and takers, lmao. The makers are the ones who are actually doing the work and being paid lower and lower wages while the takers are the ones who are calling the shots. There is absolutely nothing wrong with people becoming wealthy or even super wealthy, but there is a problem when those people do so at the expense of the working and middle class.

But there is some truth to the potential for civil war. Social wars are always preceded by a time when a small group of people gain an enormous amount of wealth and power at the expense of the rest of society. If you don't believe this, study history.

The envy is strong in this one.

What envy? I can't help that you can't understand that if you destroy the middle class, you destroy the entire economy. Rich people don't buy that much shit. The middle class and even the poor buy the vast majority of goods and services in this country. If you want super low tax rates and a society where there is a much smaller middle class, then check out Mexico. They have the low tax rates that you are hoping for. Not sure I would want to live there, but maybe for a super wealthy person like you, you might like it.

The middle class that was built on steady factory jobs is NOT coming back. Not in the same simplistic way that it existed. Time to start accepting that -- and do more fixin' than blamin'.

Expanding a new middle class will take NEW ventures knocking off the HUGE multi-nationals that suck off of govt and LOVE punitive regulation that stops their smaller competitors..

 

[auditor0007]

At some point the liberals are going to have to do something besides stamp their feet and shake their curls. Property owners and asset holders just aren't going to give up everything they worked for that easy. They won't turn over their holdings just because of a tantrum. At some point, the liberals will have to use force.

Are you talking about the property owners who are losing their homes due to the housing meltdown that was caused by Obama?

 

[auditor0007]

Nobody described the working class as the takers, shit for brains. It's simple math. Taxes paid minus entitlements received. If you are above the break even point, you are a maker. Below that you are a taker.

From the OP, describing the "makers":

On one side are those who create wealth, America’s private sector–the very ones targeted by President Obama’s tax hikes announced Monday.

Since the only people targeted by Obama's tax hikes are those making above 200k, that would be the richest 10% of Americans.

But, I see that reading comprehension is not really a skill you possess, and, since you appear to be mildly retarded, I'll forgive you.

It depends on where you are. You are probably somewhere in an Applachian mountain village, but in the real world of the major cities, $200,000 a year doesn't get much.

No matter how much money you make, if you make any at all, you are going to be in the upper something percent. The poor are already not paying any taxes at all. Their tax burden is already being paid by someone else. The richest 10%, or more likely the richest 5%. Tax cuts cannot possibly help the poor who pay no taxes at all.

Please quit lying about the poor not paying taxes. If they are completely out of work, then no, they don't pay taxes, but then again, should we expect someone who is not earning any money to pay taxes? For the working poor, they pay almost as much in taxes as the super wealthy when you include all local state, and payroll taxes. At the state level, the working poor pay as much as four times more, as a percentage of income, than the wealthy.

 

[initforme]

If I get a tax cut, thats fine with me. It isnt going to improve my bottom line. A thousand bucks isnt going to do diddly. A middle class worker saving a little more is fine but it isnt going to improve their bottom line. Improved pay is what is going to do it. A work force comprised entirely of higher educated workers that are paid alot lot more than they are making is what is going to spur the economy. The middle class is the one class that puts their money back into the system.

 

[JoeNormal]

The private sector built the strongest economy in the world. It armed the free world in World War Two, and then in the three decades after the war turned America into the most prosperous society history had ever seen. It revived America in the Reagan and Clinton years, and thanks to the Bush tax cuts brought this country back from economic collapse after 9/11.

In those same years a growing public sector, by contrast, turned Europe into a cesspool of debt, stalled economies, and chronic social dysfunction that’s set the streets of Athens -- and perhaps other European capitals--on fire.

That’s where we’re headed, too, more rapidly than we like to think.

That public sector–state, local, and federal -- now consumes 40% of GDP, compared to 33% just twelve years ago. It’s brought us to the point where 48% of Americans are now on some form of government handout, from 44% when Obama took office–almost a fifth more than during the Reagan years. And too many of them have been programmed to believe they have no future unless the government takes more from the Makers -- precisely what Obama promised on Monday.


Read more: America's coming civil war -- makers vs. takers | Fox News

The public sector kicked ass right up until Reagan handed the keys to the kingdom over to the douchebags. Since then, it's been about cronyism - within corporations, within government and between the two. Most of the real producers are being squeezed out by the smoke-and-mirror brigade.

 

[tjvh]

If I get a tax cut, thats fine with me. It isnt going to improve my bottom line. A thousand bucks isnt going to do diddly. A middle class worker saving a little more is fine but it isnt going to improve their bottom line. Improved pay is what is going to do it. A work force comprised entirely of higher educated workers that are paid alot lot more than they are making is what is going to spur the economy. The middle class is the one class that puts their money back into the system.

In reference to highlight above^: The job of a business (EVERY BUSINESS) is NOT to pay its employees the most it is able to, the job of a business is to make a profit for its owners, and investors. When a company increases its profit then it can reinvest in itself by hiring more people to meet its own expansion which will result in increasing pay as its workers move up the ranks. That is what some of you are finding very hard to grasp.

 

[Listening]

The private sector built the strongest economy in the world. It armed the free world in World War Two, and then in the three decades after the war turned America into the most prosperous society history had ever seen. It revived America in the Reagan and Clinton years, and thanks to the Bush tax cuts brought this country back from economic collapse after 9/11.

In those same years a growing public sector, by contrast, turned Europe into a cesspool of debt, stalled economies, and chronic social dysfunction that’s set the streets of Athens -- and perhaps other European capitals--on fire.

That’s where we’re headed, too, more rapidly than we like to think.

That public sector–state, local, and federal -- now consumes 40% of GDP, compared to 33% just twelve years ago. It’s brought us to the point where 48% of Americans are now on some form of government handout, from 44% when Obama took office–almost a fifth more than during the Reagan years. And too many of them have been programmed to believe they have no future unless the government takes more from the Makers -- precisely what Obama promised on Monday.


Read more: America's coming civil war -- makers vs. takers | Fox News

The public sector kicked ass right up until Reagan handed the keys to the kingdom over to the douchebags. Since then, it's been about cronyism - within corporations, within government and between the two. Most of the real producers are being squeezed out by the smoke-and-mirror brigade.

What.....the public sector fell off the gravy train like everyone else because of Carter's recession.

Deal with it.

 

[Barb]

 

[Listening]

Asswipe poster !

You can, like I do, believe in America.....but not in the American government in it's current trajectory of large wealth distribution efforts.

 

[Barb]

Asswipe poster !

You can, like I do, believe in America.....but not in the American government in it's current trajectory of large wealth distribution efforts.

isn't it funny how the exact same sentence can mean completely opposite things depending on the outlook?

 

[Care4all]

If I get a tax cut, thats fine with me. It isnt going to improve my bottom line. A thousand bucks isnt going to do diddly. A middle class worker saving a little more is fine but it isnt going to improve their bottom line. Improved pay is what is going to do it. A work force comprised entirely of higher educated workers that are paid alot lot more than they are making is what is going to spur the economy. The middle class is the one class that puts their money back into the system.

In reference to highlight above^: The job of a business (EVERY BUSINESS) is NOT to pay its employees the most it is able to, the job of a business is to make a profit for its owners, and investors. When a company increases its profit then it can reinvest in itself by hiring more people to meet its own expansion which will result in increasing pay as its workers move up the ranks. That is what some of you are finding very hard to grasp.

then please, tell us how this has happened? I thought a rising tide, raises ALL?

Seems to me, that we have laws and regs on the books that have encouraged this gap to become larger and larger and larger...

why is that in your opinion? Businesses were there to make a profit back in 1979 as well as today, so what has caused this?

 

[Vast LWC]

I would agree that there is an integrated relationship between innovators and consumers. Most people are not "takers." Consumers voluntarily exchange for goods and services they want and need, so parsing the world between makers and takers is awfully silly.

But capital is absolutely critical in the making and commercialization of any product. Try starting a business without it. You can have the best idea in the world, but it is totally irrelevant if you can't fund it.

True enough.

I wasn't saying that investing plays no part in the equation. Quite the contrary.

I was simply refuting the "makers" and "takers" assertion, and pointing out that the rich cannot solely claim the role of "job creators", as there are many contributors to job creation.

I think we agree.

 

[Care4all]

it takes capital, laborers, and demand to make the whole thing work.

You can have the best innovated widget in the world, and all the capital to make it, but if there is no demand for it, (people with money that want to buy it), then the venture falls flat, no? Or if you don't have the laborers to make it, then it falls flat, no?

 

[Vast LWC]

it takes capital, laborers, and demand to make the whole thing work.

You can have the best innovated widget in the world, and all the capital to make it, but if there is no demand for it, (people with money that want to buy it), then the venture falls flat, no? Or if you don't have the laborers to make it, then it falls flat, no?

In addition, you can have a whole bunch of laborers, but if they aren't productive, then it will also fall flat.

And, in every study, Americans are the most productive workers, per person, in the world.

 

[Care4all]

it takes capital, laborers, and demand to make the whole thing work.

You can have the best innovated widget in the world, and all the capital to make it, but if there is no demand for it, (people with money that want to buy it), then the venture falls flat, no? Or if you don't have the laborers to make it, then it falls flat, no?

In addition, you can have a whole bunch of laborers, but if they aren't productive, then it will also fall flat.

And, in every study, Americans are the most productive workers, per person, in the world.

yes, our productivity here is outstanding compared to other countries

 

[tjvh]

Funny how prominent Democrats who do the EXACT SAME THING get a pass.