An Informal Debate on Race Relations in the United States Including Its History

[freyasman]

I'm not sure what that's got to do with the price of eggs.

But I thought racism was the topic?
Or is it just white people you want to talk shit about?

 

[OldLady]

But I thought racism was the topic?
Or is it just white people you want to talk shit about?

I didn't know I was "talking shit" about anyone. If the shoe don't fit, don't wear it. It shouldn't be bothering you if we're talking about people you don't even know. If IM is being unfair, tell him so (which you have) and move on.

I think Mariyam was trying to open a discussion about what she feels is ongoing white racism in this country, now much less conscious and blatant than it once was. The situation, on average, of blacks and whites in this country is still unequal. That, I think, is the general idea and it is the general idea underlying all the protests recently.

Saying "Yeah, well what about black racism?" is just a "whataboutism" that doesn't get us anywhere. Two wrongs don't make a right, so what's your point?

 

[OldLady]

who engineered the process and situation that created generational poverty with inner city blacks?

All the things you mention--welfare, public housing, etc., were "suffered" by the black community BECAUSE THEY WERE ALREADY POOR. Much more poor than they are today. That was because....
That is what you need to see. It may be fine to blame that on the other "party" and consider yourself blameless but it is not only Democrats that deal with blacks in every aspect of life. It is ALL our responsibility to look at our own biases and at least be aware and question if we are judging people individually by the content of their character or if we are jumping to stereotypes. If we are judging everyone individually, even young people from the inner city, then we are not jumping to stereotypes. Mariyam invited you to this Bull Ring because you are stereotyping inner city blacks as a group, not seeing everyone as an individual. A lot of people don't distinguish at all and see ALL blacks as thugs or animals. That's a load of crap, as I'm sure you'd agree. You're half way there. But you can't get out of responsibility by conveniently saying it's all the Democrats fault. Regardless of who we vote for, it's up to us all. imo.

 

[freyasman]

I didn't know I was "talking shit" about anyone. If the shoe don't fit, don't wear it. It shouldn't be bothering you if we're talking about people you don't even know. If IM is being unfair, tell him so (which you have) and move on.

I think Mariyam was trying to open a discussion about what she feels is ongoing white racism in this country, now much less conscious and blatant than it once was. The situation, on average, of blacks and whites in this country is still unequal. That, I think, is the general idea and it is the general idea underlying all the protests recently.

Saying "Yeah, well what about black racism?" is just a "whataboutism" that doesn't get us anywhere. Two wrongs don't make a right, so what's your point?

So just to be clear, ya'll don't wish to talk about racism, just about white racism, is that right?



Maybe whites are still doing better because we come from a superior culture, with superior values. Maybe adopting those values and that culture would go a long way towards equalizing outcomes. But if folks choose not to use tactics proven to succeed, and instead keep on doing shit that has failed for generations, then that's on them.
And that's not systemic racism, that's a wide-scale failure to get one's shit together.

 

[IM2]

We all want to be viewed as individuals, and I will admit I too get ticked because I feel I get viewed through a “whites are racist” lens.

The thing is that whites too often want to get mad about that but our whole lives whites have not looked at us as individuals. We are expected by whites not to look at them as racists while I have a masters degree, never fathered a child out of wedlock, been a criminal, never took welfare, worked from the time I was nine, built sucessful businesses, yet I am told to get a job, stop committing crimes, take care of my children, that I need to get off welfare and get an education. We are supposed to assume a white person is not a racist while whites can assume we are violent.

We are not at this point because people were thought of as individuals. We are here because laws and policies were made denying and benefiting groups.

 

[OldLady]

The thing is that whites too often want to get mad about that but our whole lives whites have not looked at us as individuals. We are expected by whites not to look at them as racists while I have a masters degree, never fathered a child out of wedlock, been a criminal, never took welfare, worked from the time I was nine, built sucessful businesses, yet I am told to get a job, stop committing crimes, take care of my children, that I need to get off welfare and get an education. We are supposed to assume a white person is not a racist while whites can assume we are violent.

We are not at this point because people were thought of as individuals. We are here because laws and policies were made denying and benefiting groups.

Well, that is unfair. So don't do it to whites, either.

 

[OldLady]

So just to be clear, ya'll don't wish to talk about racism, just about white racism, is that right?



Maybe whites are still doing better because we come from a superior culture, with superior values. Maybe adopting those values and that culture would go a long way towards equalizing outcomes. But if folks choose not to use tactics proven to succeed, and instead keep on doing shit that has failed for generations, then that's on them.
And that's not systemic racism, that's a wide-scale failure to get one's shit together.

Okay. And 2/3 of the blacks in this country have done exactly that. The "loser" culture is exactly the same one I see in poor white communities. Bitterness and a negative attitude toward a system that has shut them out and never given them a break. I don't know where you live, but in rural communities of small towns where everyone knows everyone's business and who their daddy's were, who know the last names that spell t-r-o-u-b-l-e, those kids are "branded" from the minute they enter Pre-K.

I was a single mom with a young child (not in a rural area at that time) and at one point had to wear my work uniform to appointments, pretending I'd just gotten out of work, because I literally didn't have any other clothes to wear. I was constantly getting mistaken for an ignorant young mom who knew nothing about childhood nutrition or parenting or vaccinations and got plenty of long lectures every time I interacted with professionals. They judged me on my age and my situation and lumped me with the wrong group. I had read Benjamin Spock's Baby and Child Care from cover to cover three times before my son was born and we never missed a well child check and I put balanced meals on the table three times a day.

It happens. When you grow up in that 'sub culture' of losing, most people take on those attitudes without ever consciously thinking about it. Humans are social animals. That is how we are wired, we absorb our culture from the people around us via observation. But those attitudes, like you said, can be changed. It's not something a poor inner city kid wakes up one day realizing, though. Not unless the seed gets planted from somewhere.

The choice is not always that obvious to people living it, I guess is my point.

 

[katsteve2012]

Well, right back at ya..... if you get butthurt when told to mind your own business, then go somewhere else.

If anyone is butthurt, you are. And the last time I checked, this is a thread that certain people were invited to.

One of which I am, so by commenting I WAS minding my business..

If you are too thin skinned and tantrum prone to deal with that, maybe you shouldn't be here.

 

[IM2]

Well, I'm not really trying to convince anyone of anything; I don't actually care what people believe or feel. I do care how they act, but that's really about it.
He is a racist and a con man trying to manipulate people. I like to call people like that out; it's fun for me.

You need to leave. Because you aren't calling anyone out. You're repeating right wing racist bullshit because you have no agreement or rebuttal and think you can get to me by repeating a bunch of retardo. You are the racist here and you serve no good purpose in this debate. Whites like you are the problem. Notice that I said whites like you which means I am talking about a particular type of white person and not all whites. Therefore it's not a racist comment.

You know what's fun?

Watching a racist like you fold and resort to calling me names because you can't win the debate.
I know you're scared to read what I post but here's another lesson for you.

I have been called “racist” by White people whenever I specifically reject a legislative, political, media/film/art, or cultural manifestation of White supremacy. I’ve also been called “racist” for recounting any experience that I have had with racism. The actual act of naming what I heard or experienced is deemed “racist.” Apparently, what I actually heard or experienced is of no concern or consequence to Whites seeking to call Black people or other people of colour racist.

There’s two reasons why Whites call people of colour (especially Black people) “racist.” First of all, it comes from a lack of understanding of the term (through ignorance or willful ignorance and hatred), its history and its consequences. As long as “racism” is viewed solely as “one person being mean to another person because of their race” or basically solely as an individual and arbitrary instance of prejudice with equal social capital between the individuals, Whites can obscure or ignore the ramifications of the historical (whether implied, microaggressions or overt racism), institutional, structural and systemic manifestations of White supremacy (which does NOT require extremism to exist) and racism.

A Black person being insulted based on slurs that facilitate(d)(s) oppression and genocide for centuries and that same sentiment behind that slur facilitates the denial of a plethora of opportunities as well as supports a plethora of types of discrimination and punishment represents a different magnitude and scope of an insult versus a Black person “hurting” a White person’s feelings, even if the former is rude.

Many times an insult is not occurring—it’s just a Black person adamantly rejecting White supremacy. The rejection of White supremacy and racism themselves is not “reverse racism.”

Why Whites Call People Of Colour "Racist"

I have been called “racist” by White people whenever I specifically reject a legislative, political, media/film/art, or cultural manifestation of White supremacy. I’ve also been called “racist” for...

www.gradientlair.com

You don't have the intelligence to fuck with the champ.

 

[iamwhatiseem]

All the things you mention--welfare, public housing, etc., were "suffered" by the black community BECAUSE THEY WERE ALREADY POOR. Much more poor than they are today. That was because....
That is what you need to see. It may be fine to blame that on the other "party" and consider yourself blameless but it is not only Democrats that deal with blacks in every aspect of life. It is ALL our responsibility to look at our own biases and at least be aware and question if we are judging people individually by the content of their character or if we are jumping to stereotypes. If we are judging everyone individually, even young people from the inner city, then we are not jumping to stereotypes. Mariyam invited you to this Bull Ring because you are stereotyping inner city blacks as a group, not seeing everyone as an individual. A lot of people don't distinguish at all and see ALL blacks as thugs or animals. That's a load of crap, as I'm sure you'd agree. You're half way there. But you can't get out of responsibility by conveniently saying it's all the Democrats fault. Regardless of who we vote for, it's up to us all. imo.

Not that simple.
Like I said, inner-city blacks have been victimized. They have become dependent on government assistance to the point they absolutely believe they deserve that free stuff. And they need to justify in their minds why they deserve the benefit of other peoples work without working themselves. And raaaacism is that justification.
Which is why I have said, today blacks are harmed more by perceived racism than actual racism. In Chicago, the Tribune did a story some years ago - (you can probably find it on the web) of 5 generations of black families where no one worked. The entire family depended on social programs their whole lives, their kids lives, their parents lives and their grand parents - all never had a job their whole life. That is a tremendous institutional problem. An institution created by Democrats. And is used to keep black people voting for them. And the cycle continues and continues.
Don't vote for Republicans!! They are racist!! They want to remove welfare programs! They want to stop your children from healthcare! They want to defund your housing!! They want to cut education grants!!! (All lies of course) So Democrats keep promising to not only keep funding their lives, but keep INCREASING the funds.
It was a black person that coined the phrase "Black Votes Matter" when he was talking about Democrats, and how they have no interest in improving the lives of blacks...but keep them down so they can count on their political support.

 

[IM2]

I'm talking about white racism as this challenge is based on the premise that America is built on a foundation of white supremacy. If there is anyone that can find the laws and policies made by blacks that denied constitutional rights and opportunities to whites, I'll be more than glad to discuss them. But what I won't call racism is the response of blacks to white racism.

 

[IM2]

Not that simple.
Like I said, inner-city blacks have been victimized. They have become dependent on government assistance to the point they absolutely believe they deserve that free stuff. And they need to justify in their minds why they deserve the benefit of other peoples work without working themselves. And raaaacism is that justification.
Which is why I have said, today blacks are harmed more by perceived racism than actual racism. In Chicago, the Tribune did a story some years ago - (you can probably find it on the web) of 5 generations of black families where no one worked. The entire family depended on social programs their whole lives, their kids lives, their parents lives and their grand parents - all never had a job their whole life. That is a tremendous institutional problem. An institution created by Democrats. And is used to keep black people voting for them. And the cycle continues and continues.
Don't vote for Republicans!! They are racist!! They want to remove welfare programs! They want to stop your children from healthcare! They want to defund your housing!! They want to cut education grants!!! (All lies of course) So Democrats keep promising to not only keep funding their lives, but keep INCREASING the funds.
It was a black person that coined the phrase "Black Votes Matter" when he was talking about Democrats, and how they have no interest in improving the lives of blacks...but keep them down so they can count on their political support.

Why is it that whites have depended on government since America was a colony and they talk like this? Perceived racism?

 

[IM2]

“Abuse is a form of mistreatment by one individual that causes harm to another person.”

National Adult Protective Services Association​

What do people think racism is? There have been several definitions of racism over time. What racism is seems to depend on your race or ideology. For blacks, most nonwhites and non-racist whites the term is defined as a belief in the superiority of your race. Yet to certain whites, racism is anything negatively said about whites, even if it’s historically documented fact. Let us go beyond these definitions because they limit racism and makes it out to be a simple matter that can easily be overcome by simply ignoring the racist behavior and that it has no impact upon those it is imposed upon. When looked upon critically, racism is a form of abusive behavior based upon a belief in racial superiority.

“Bryant-Davis and Ocampo (2005) noted similar courses of psychopathology between rape victims and victims of racism. Both events are an assault on the personhood and integrity of the victim. Similar to rape victims, race-related trauma victims may respond with disbelief, shock, or dissociation, which can prevent them from responding to the incident in a healthy manner. The victim may then feel shame and self-blame because they were unable to respond or defend themselves, which may lead to low self-concept and self-destructive behaviors. In the same study, a parallel was drawn between race-related trauma victims and victims of domestic violence. Both survivors are made to feel shame over allowing themselves to be victimized. For instance, someone who may have experienced a racist incident may be told that if they are polite, work hard, and/or dress in a certain way, they will not encounter racism. When these rules are followed yet racism persists, powerlessness, hyper vigilance, and other symptoms associated with PTSD may develop or worsen (Bryant-Davis & Ocampo, 2005).”

Monnica T. Williams Ph.D.​

The psychological impact of racism must be paid attention to if there is ever going to be a true and logical reduction in the behavior. This is mainly due to a refusal to accept that certain behaviors done by nonwhites are caused by white racism. Racism causes chronic stress. Understanding this has serious implications for health outcomes in the black community. While I am not a doctor, what I have read by medical professionals explains how constant stress will create unhealthy outcomes. The continuing racism blacks face keep blacks stressed out and creates chemical imbalances within our bodies causing a wide variety of health problems.

If you study abuse, it has been shown that specific types of abuse can cause different types of behaviors ether positive or negative. I’ve done like many others and have discussed racism with whites in person to person interactions, public social gatherings, online forums, message walls, chat rooms and other social media. I have tried to inform on the impact of racism from the perspective of being black. What I discovered is that a lot of whites really don’t have an understanding about what racism can do to a person. For example, you try explaining to a white person that blacks riot in their communities because of racism and the first thing you hear is, “Come on man white racism did not cause that.”

That anecdote is an example of a person who has not experienced the first second of what racism does to a person talking about what they believe cannot happen. Yet if you talk to this same person about child abuse, sexual abuse or other types of abuses, they are more than able to talk about the behaviors that can result. But racism, well that’s just something you can easily get beyond. Meanwhile every other type of abuse is a lifelong struggle for the person who must deal with it.

I presented the idea that racism was abuse in an internet forum and some white lady who had experienced a different abuse while growing up exploded like an atomic bomb. She was offended that I could compare racism to such a major thing as abuse. She threatened physical violence against me. This is how ignorant some people even today in the 21st century, are to the reality of what racism is. Racism includes and has included these things:

• Emotional/Psychological abuse
• Financial abuse
• Physical abuse
• Sexual abuse
• Verbal abuse
• Spiritual abuse

Tremendous psychological damage has been inflicted on nonwhites because of the racist policies and individual actions by whites in America and worldwide. But some whites seem to think that racism is simple and that it carries no psychological consequences to those who are the victims of it. They do so because they see nonwhites coping the best way they can with it. Secondly, they tend to look at things based on their perspective, meaning that when they see blacks acting violent they look at it from their experience as whites, never factoring in the damage at every level caused by past and continuing white racism.

“On occasion, the emotional weight of racism can lead African Americans to engage in maladaptive coping, such as remaining in denial, engaging in substance use, aggression, self-blame – even in extreme cases suicide (i.e., Black Lives Matter activist Marshawn McCarrel) and terrorism (i.e., Dallas shooter Micah Xavier Johnson). These responses are harmful and lead to negative, long-term consequences.”

Monnica T. Williams Ph.D.​

 

[OldLady]

If anyone is butthurt, you are. And the last time I checked, this is a thread that certain people were invited to.

One of which I am, so by commenting I WAS minding my business..

If you are too thin skinned and tantrum prone to deal with that, maybe you shouldn't be here.

Ignore the fight-picking, if you possibly can, please. It's just his defense.

 

[OldLady]

“On occasion, the emotional weight of racism can lead African Americans to engage in maladaptive coping, such as remaining in denial, engaging in substance use, aggression, self-blame – even in extreme cases suicide (i.e., Black Lives Matter activist Marshawn McCarrel) and terrorism (i.e., Dallas shooter Micah Xavier Johnson). These responses are harmful and lead to negative, long-term consequences.”

The Bluest Eye

 

[iamwhatiseem]

White people have a drug problem... they have a drug problem.
Black people have a drug problem... it's racism
White people poor - they are poor due to laziness and poor life choices
Black people poor - it's racism.
White people become criminals.... they are criminals
Black people become criminals... it's racism.
White kids flunk in school.... they flunked out for various reasons.
Black kids flunk in school.... it's racism.

See a pattern here?

 

[IM2]

Well, that is unfair. So don't do it to whites, either.

We didn't pass the laws, or make the policies that created the problem. Racism is not an individual level or micro level problem. Whites have made things up about us. We are looking at a 400 year pattern of behavior. Our situations are different. I have met many whites in my life I trusted not to be racist and got screwed. I specifically refer to whites who are racists as white racists, but at some point whites must just bow up and understand that they don't get to mistreat entire populations of people like shit then complain because when they talk about whites they don't always say not all whites before they make the comment.

This is where a lot of white people err in this discussion. Our experiences here are not the same but many want to pretend our experiences are exactly the same then give the same motives to people with 2 different experiences. Everybody black knows not all whites are racists. But it is time that whites silenced or made insignificant the race pimps among them who present this false equivalence.

 

[IM2]

White people have a drug problem... they have a drug problem.
Black people have a drug problem... it's racism
White people poor - they are poor due to laziness and poor life choices
Black people poor - it's racism.
White people become criminals.... they are criminals
Black people become criminals... it's racism.
White kids flunk in school.... they flunked out for various reasons.
Black kids flunk in school.... it's racism.

See a pattern here?

What I see is a person who has not studied the psychological impact of racism.

 

[IM2]

The Bluest Eye

Was there a link to this?

 

[iamwhatiseem]

In then end... and I am most likely done here...
I personally can say with 110% genuine belief - there is no difference between whites and blacks in everything that counts the day they are born. Blacks are absolutely, in no way shape or form inferior to whites. PERIOD.
And anyone who thinks so is ignorant. PERIOD.
Having said that, blacks were severely hampered by the liberal social programs of the 50s - 80s. And those inner city blacks are to this day still paying the price for it 100%. What the hell did people expect when an entire section of the populations were slammed together in jam packed public housing purposefully situated away from jobs, away from schools = away from everyone else. This was done ON PURPOSE.
And Democrats today want to pretend this whole process didn't happen.
They institutionalized and victimized an entire race of people...who had children, who also had children - all brought up in these public housing where there are no jobs, shitty schools and NO ONE judges them for whatever bad choices they make. NO ONE calls them out for HUGE cultural problems - that they DID NOT HAVE prior to the 1950s.
Democrats took a proud, hard working group of people - and ruined them.
And they are doing the same thing with Latinos.