An Informal Debate on Race Relations in the United States Including Its History

[Coyote]

Alright. I started reading carefully and then jumped to the end because we are already violating the rules of engagement here.

Treat this like the CDZ - no flaming, no insulting.

I totally get that is a real sensitive hot button issue and it is easy to get defensive, angry, or feel grossly wronged regardless of what side you are on. Try to put those views into debate without resorting to flaming ok?

It is going to be a challenge to everyone her, I know.

Also, if some not part of tbe team posts, please do not respond, just report it for deletion.

 

[IM2]

A black coworker and friend from the inner city told me this about white guys and black guys.
When you're in a bar, the white guys want to know, will you fuck them. The black guys want to know if you've got a job.

We laughed about it; she swears it's true. Historically, women are the breadwinners in the family. That's because the men can't get steady jobs. And the reason for that is.....
everything comes full circle, doesn't it?

Hey, I wanted to know if we could fuck. I never asked if she had a job.

 

[Coyote]

And the people doing it always want us to look at them as individuals as they do it.

We all want to be viewed as individuals, and I will admit I too get ticked because I feel I get viewed through a “whites are racist” lens.

 

[iamwhatiseem]

They tell a story. I don't hear you dismissing the statistics that blacks commit much more crime or per capita more of them are on welfare. Are you dismissing them because they make you uncomfortable? This is not "spin."

The substantial progress in educational attainment of African Americans has been accompanied by significant absolute improvements in wages, incomes, wealth, and health since 1968. But black workers still make only 82.5 cents on every dollar earned by white workers, African Americans are 2.5 times as likely to be in poverty as whites, and the median white family has almost 10 times as much wealth as the median black family.

To me, that tells a story of less opportunity. YES things are a whole lot better. But stubbornly, there is underlying inequality of opportunity that is widespread throughout our country. Poverty breeds crime in every community and that feeds into the lower economic indicators as well. That is why one of the current demands is that some of the money being spent on police departments be spent on efforts to resolve some of those problems in the black community.

Ahh... but you are removing the fact that there is choice.
As I said in the other thread, there is a HUGE difference in culture and statistics between inner-city blacks and suburban blacks. If you compared statistics between these two people, and treated black suburbans as another race - you would say the black suburbans are the privileged and there must be racism between the two.
The difference in statistics between black suburbans and inner city blacks are equal to the difference between them and whites. - How do you explain that Oldlady?

 

[Coyote]

Her mind is not closed but yours is. The same attitude of white racial superiority exists now as it did in the beginning.

I disagree with that. It is not same, the nation has evolved, views have changed for the better. I can say I would a woman today, than a woman in the 1950’s. Would you rather be a black man today or in 1950’s?

That doesn’t mean we still don’t need improvement or that there is not racism or bigotry still, but the attitude is not the same.

 

[OldLady]

That is a really good good way of boiling down many things into one basic truth: Black people are judged as a group for things white people are judged for as individuals.

WHY can't I put things that succinctly? Excellent summation, Coyote.

 

[freyasman]

And here is an example. If I am so wrong produce evidence and not just opinion.

What evidence have you produced?
A bunch of links that say what you already believe are not proof of anything. It's just noise.

 

[OldLady]

Ahh... but you are removing the fact that there is choice.
As I said in the other thread, there is a HUGE difference in culture and statistics between inner-city blacks and suburban blacks. If you compared statistics between these two people, and treated black suburbans as another race - you would say the black suburbans are the privileged and there must be racism between the two.
The difference in statistics between black suburbans and inner city blacks are equal to the difference between them and whites. - How do you explain that Oldlady?

Ahh... but you are removing the fact that there is choice.
As I said in the other thread, there is a HUGE difference in culture and statistics between inner-city blacks and suburban blacks. If you compared statistics between these two people, and treated black suburbans as another race - you would say the black suburbans are the privileged and there must be racism between the two.
The difference in statistics between black suburbans and inner city blacks are equal to the difference between them and whites. - How do you explain that Oldlady?

Class differences.
It would take a lot more time and space than we have here to explain how generational poverty in a community leads to a perpetual downward spiral. It doesn't matter if it's a white community, a native community, a black community. And the natives and blacks have it harder, because to break the mold, they've got their very faces working against them. They can't visit the barber, get a new suit and walk into a job interview acting like they had been raised in an upper middle class family. We can.
It's complicated. The "choice" you emphasize is there, yes. Just as the Civil Rights Act of 1964 is there. But as long as whites continue to suspect blacks of being "the other," whether it is all blacks or inner city blacks, that ability to choose is often taken away.

 

[freyasman]

All that I did was to ask you a question, but if you are too thin-skinned to not take that personally, I have no problem at all ignoring what you have to say.

Well, right back at ya..... if you get butthurt when told to mind your own business, then go somewhere else.

 

[OldLady]

What evidence have you produced?
A bunch of links that say what you already believe are not proof of anything. It's just noise.

If economic, labor and educational statistics don't "prove" anything, if direct quotes by Western Civilization's most influential philosophers aren't "evidence," what do YOU want to see to prove the point?

 

[freyasman]

Let's see, there is a 160 year record of events that have occurred since slavery. Would you care to discuss them? Because what you can't see is irrelevant. Now when you decide to be man enough to stand up to your white buddies and their non stop attacks on blacks, then I will consider what you have to say.

Because I don't give a flying fuck if your punk ass doesn't like what I say to whites. Because if you were really married to a true sister your ass would not be running your mouth like this. You are an example of internet blackface.

Sure, let's discuss them...... how many blacks have been lynched since Reconstruction?
And how many blacks have been murdered by other blacks just in the last decade?

And what buddies of mine are attacking blacks? None, right?
That's your hatred and racism being projected onto me, that's all. Now when you decide to be man enough to admit what a sorry excuse for a man you are behaving like, then I will consider what you have to say.

And I'm guessing it really pisses you off that a black woman married me and bore my offspring, and is happily enjoying our grandchildren, doesn't it? Maybe you should do a little self-examination and ask yourself why that bothers you so much.
(Hint: Because you're a racist.)

 

[freyasman]

What part of the statistics IM quoted and the quotes from the Enlightenment philosophers are untrue? Why is it gullible to believe nationwide statistics and direct quotes?

I didn't even bother to read that nonsense. If IM2 is using it, that in itself is good reason to discount it.
That's like asking the SPLC who is, and is not, a "hate group".

 

[freyasman]

Slavery is not the issue here. Racism is.

Okay, let's talk about how so many black people are racists and why.

 

[freyasman]

Did I give you the impression that I think you live under a rock?9

I only asked about your wife's sentiments, because it seems logical that she could have some opinions that could influence your thoughts.

There is another poster here who has claimed to have a black wife that has very negative opinions about black men in general.

If my wife has negative opinions about any man, I expect it would be me...... after all, I'm the one she has been married to all this time, lol.

 

[freyasman]

A black coworker and friend from the inner city told me this about white guys and black guys.
When you're in a bar, the white guys want to know, will you fuck them. The black guys want to know if you've got a job.

We laughed about it; she swears it's true. Historically, women are the breadwinners in the family. That's because the men can't get steady jobs. And the reason for that is.....
everything comes full circle, doesn't it?

I've seen that division of labor too. A couple where the female has a decent paying job and brings in money, but the male provides security in a dangerous environment.

 

[OldLady]

I didn't even bother to read that nonsense. If IM2 is using it, that in itself is good reason to discount it.
That's like asking the SPLC who is, and is not, a "hate group".

But I read yours; why doesn't his deserve the same attention? The articles he put up were actually well reasoned arguments supported by inarguable facts. There are still ways to rebut them; IM does use a broad brush. In my neck of the woods, we actually read or listen to the argument first, though, before calling it "nonsense."

 

[freyasman]

If economic, labor and educational statistics don't "prove" anything, if direct quotes by Western Civilization's most influential philosophers aren't "evidence," what do YOU want to see to prove the point?

I'd like to go an entire month without being called a "cracker" for starters.

 

[OldLady]

Okay, let's talk about how so many black people are racists and why.

I'm not sure what that's got to do with the price of eggs.

 

[iamwhatiseem]

Class differences.
It would take a lot more time and space than we have here to explain how generational poverty in a community leads to a perpetual downward spiral. It doesn't matter if it's a white community, a native community, a black community. And the natives and blacks have it harder, because to break the mold, they've got their very faces working against them. They can't visit the barber, get a new suit and walk into a job interview acting like they had been raised in an upper middle class family. We can.
It's complicated. The "choice" you emphasize is there, yes. Just as the Civil Rights Act of 1964 is there. But as long as whites continue to suspect blacks of being "the other," whether it is all blacks or inner city blacks, that ability to choose is often taken away.

AH... and who engineered the process and situation that created generational poverty with inner city blacks?
The answer to that is what I have railed on about in this forum for years - liberal social engineering of the 1950s - 1980s crushed the black race. They packed them in like sardines in projects carefully and strategically away from their neighborhoods and more importantly where their kids went to schools.
Liberal social policies also removed the financial need for fathers. The government became the daddy. So that created the problem of now OVER 70% single parent women.
Liberals have done so much damage to the black race it is stunningly unbelievable that they still vote for Democrats over and over because they have become dependent on government assistance and are afraid of losing it.

 

[freyasman]

But I read yours; why doesn't his deserve the same attention? The articles he put up were actually well reasoned arguments supported by inarguable facts. There are still ways to rebut them; IM does use a broad brush. In my neck of the woods, we actually read or listen to the argument first, though, before calling it "nonsense."

Well, I'm not really trying to convince anyone of anything; I don't actually care what people believe or feel. I do care how they act, but that's really about it.
He is a racist and a con man trying to manipulate people. I like to call people like that out; it's fun for me.