Analyzing A Practical Minimum Wage

[Jackinthebox]

Not this shit again.....do you honestly think you're bringing something new to this board?
Same old tired shit from the left.

Pay for the working class of the United States of America is 'tired shit from the left.'

Sociopath: A person with a psychopathic personality whose behavior is antisocial, often criminal, and who lacks a sense of moral responsibility or social conscience.

Seems to fit you well.....[/QUOT
noun
NORTH AMERICAN

1. 1.
   a vagrant.
2. 2.
   a person who devotes a great deal of time to a specified activity.
   "a ski bum"
   synonyms: enthusiast, fan, aficionado, lover, freak, nut, buff, fanatic, addict
   "a ski bum"

verb

1. 1.
   travel, with no particular purpose or destination.
   "he bummed around Florida for a few months"
   synonyms: loaf, lounge, idle, wander, drift, meander, dawdle; More
   
2. 2.
   get by asking or begging.
   "they tried to bum money off us"
   synonyms: beg, borrow; More

adjective

1. 1.
   of poor quality; bad or wrong.
   "not one bum note was played"
   synonyms: crummy, rotten, pathetic, lousy, pitiful; More

Choose languageAfrikaansAlbanianArabicArmenianAzerbaijaniBasqueBelarusianBengaliBosnianBulgarianCatalanCebuanoChinese (Simplified)Chinese (Traditional)CroatianCzechDanishDutchEsperantoEstonianFilipinoFinnishFrenchGalicianGeorgianGermanGreekGujaratiHaitianHausaHebrewHindiHmongHungarianIcelandicIgboIndonesianIrishItalianJapaneseJavaneseKannadaKhmerKoreanLaoLatinLatvianLithuanianMacedonianMalayMalteseMaoriMarathiMongolianNepaliNorwegianPersianPolishPortuguesePunjabiRomanianRussianSerbianSlovakSlovenianSomaliSpanishSwahiliSwedishTamilTeluguThaiTurkishUkrainianUrduVietnameseWelshYiddishYorubaZulu

Not this shit again.....do you honestly think you're bringing something new to this board?
Same old tired shit from the left.

Pay for the working class of the United States of America is 'tired shit from the left.'

Sociopath: A person with a psychopathic personality whose behavior is antisocial, often criminal, and who lacks a sense of moral responsibility or social conscience.

Seems to fit you well.....

bum1
[buhm] Spell Syllables

• Synonyms
• Word Origin

noun
1.
a person who avoids work and sponges on others; loafer; idler.
2.
a tramp, hobo, or derelict.
3.
Informal. an enthusiast of a specific sport or recreational activity,especially one who gives it priority over work, family life, etc.:
a ski bum; a tennis bum.
4.
Informal. an incompetent person.
5.
a drunken orgy; debauch.
verb (used with object), bummed, bumming.
6.
Informal. to borrow without expectation of returning; get for nothing;cadge:
He's always bumming cigarettes from me.
7.
Slang. to ruin or spoil:
The weather bummed our whole weekend.
verb (used without object), bummed, bumming.
8.
to sponge on others for a living; lead an idle or dissolute life.
9.
to live as a hobo.
adjective, bummer, bummest. Slang.
10.
of poor, wretched, or miserable quality; worthless.
11.
disappointing; unpleasant.
12.
erroneous or ill-advised; misleading:
That tip on the stock market was a bum steer.
13.
lame:
a bum leg.
Verb phrases
14.
bum around, Informal. to travel, wander, or spend one's timeaimlessly:
We bummed around for a couple of hours after work.
Idioms
15.
bum (someone) out, Slang. to disappoint, upset, or annoy:
It really bummed me out that she could have helped and didn't.
16.
on the bum, Informal.

1. living or traveling as or in a manner suggesting that of a hobo ortramp.
2. in a state of disrepair or disorder:
   The oven is on the bum again.

And there you are....

 

[EdwardBaiamonte]

So packing your groceries, serving your food, cleaning your buildings, SAVING YOUR LIVES is not a "sufficient contribution" to society?

it depends on what you pack, how well you do it, and how long, all in relationship to competition. Are you a liberal soviet who wants to decide the price of everything regardless of the free market price?

 

[asterism]

Not all teens need a living wage. Mine certainly don't. Not all spouses getting a second job need a living wage, one of my employees takes seasonal jobs at Christmas and in the summer and she makes $50K with company-paid health insurance working for us.

The problem with mandating that all jobs must pay a living wage is that it there are too many jobs that don't provide enough value to the business to justify that pay. Those jobs cease to exist when the minimum wage exceeds the value. That doesn't help those at the bottom at all.

It makes no difference if those teens "need" it or not. That vast majority of low wage workers are not teens, but adults trying to support themselves, and perhaps a family.

It makes a difference because very low-skilled low-paying jobs are an important starting point. Many of those jobs will not exist anymore, making your "practical solution" not practical at all. Pay is set according to value derived and a mix between supply and demand, not some moral judgement.

As I said, I was on my own since I was 16. So by your standard, an employer may discriminate against me based on my age.

No, discriminate based on the value you provide to the organization.

I might also add here too, that MANY kids who are still living at home, are contributing members to household finances. They are helping pay the rent, not buying video games.

Another statement with no data to back it up.

Spouses, same thing. This is not about "needs" for everyone. Heck, I don't "need" the money, so I volunteer at a soup kitchen and my local fire department. Does that mean that all food service workers and firefighters in our country should work for nothing?

No, they should work for the price agreed upon when they take the job.

You are also incorrect, to a point, in saying that these jobs "cease to exist." As a small business owner, I NEVER hired someone I did not need to fill a position. A job is not charity. If it cost $8 or $20 to hire someone to man the counter, that is what I would pay. I never hired more staff than was needed, and never laid off staff that was necessary to maintain proper customer service.

Now when I say to a point, yes, there may be companies who are operating on such little profit that they might go belly up and close their doors at the next wage increase. But that is inevitable then. A dead man walking so to speak. If your business model relies on government subsidized labor, you are not a capitalist, and you do not have a viable business model. Hell, even slave owners had to pay the basic living expenses of their labor force.

My dad used to hire teens to clean the parking lot. Now that's not financially feasible, the business hires a service that has a machine to do it.

 

[Jackinthebox]

So packing your groceries, serving your food, cleaning your buildings, SAVING YOUR LIVES is not a "sufficient contribution" to society?

it depends on what you pack, how well you do it, and how long, all in relationship to competition. Are you a liberal soviet who wants to decide the price of everything regardless of the free market price?

Well, speaking of packing groceries.... Again, when I got my first job at 14, it was at a grocery store. I packed groceries, and pushed carts. I was hit by a car twice in that parking lot, and was out in all sorts of weather. Suffered heat stroke one 4th of July that I was working (for the double time pay).

I was also an EXPERT bagger. I still pack my own groceries the way I learned to at the supermarket as a teen. Don't just bag what comes down the belt. Be selective, but fast at the same time. Like items go in the same bag. Fewer heavy items per bag for people who are smaller, like little old ladies, but box corners will rip out a bag quicker than extra weight. Paper in plastic? No problem. Don't give attitude over customer requests. Work both bag stations if not enough like items are coming down the belt, look ahead to the carriage to see what's coming later. The bagger is the last person a customer sees when they leave the store. Smile and thank them for shopping today.

When I was a kid, that was the frontline for basic customer service skill training.

Today, you are LUCKY if you can get someone to pack your bags in the first place. But if you do, it's a mongoloid with sleeves covered in boogers. (No offense to those with special needs folks they love.)

I really don't have a direct problem with special needs folks being productive. What I DO have a problem with, is the fact that they are paid only a buck or two an hour, already get a free ride from the government, and are taking a job away from people who actually NEED to earn a living, at a fair rate of pay.

 

[Jackinthebox]

Not all teens need a living wage. Mine certainly don't. Not all spouses getting a second job need a living wage, one of my employees takes seasonal jobs at Christmas and in the summer and she makes $50K with company-paid health insurance working for us.

The problem with mandating that all jobs must pay a living wage is that it there are too many jobs that don't provide enough value to the business to justify that pay. Those jobs cease to exist when the minimum wage exceeds the value. That doesn't help those at the bottom at all.

It makes no difference if those teens "need" it or not. That vast majority of low wage workers are not teens, but adults trying to support themselves, and perhaps a family.

It makes a difference because very low-skilled low-paying jobs are an important starting point. Many of those jobs will not exist anymore, making your "practical solution" not practical at all. Pay is set according to value derived and a mix between supply and demand, not some moral judgement.

As I said, I was on my own since I was 16. So by your standard, an employer may discriminate against me based on my age.

No, discriminate based on the value you provide to the organization.

I might also add here too, that MANY kids who are still living at home, are contributing members to household finances. They are helping pay the rent, not buying video games.

Another statement with no data to back it up.

Spouses, same thing. This is not about "needs" for everyone. Heck, I don't "need" the money, so I volunteer at a soup kitchen and my local fire department. Does that mean that all food service workers and firefighters in our country should work for nothing?

No, they should work for the price agreed upon when the take the job.

You are also incorrect, to a point, in saying that these jobs "cease to exist." As a small business owner, I NEVER hired someone I did not need to fill a position. A job is not charity. If it cost $8 or $20 to hire someone to man the counter, that is what I would pay. I never hired more staff than was needed, and never laid off staff that was necessary to maintain proper customer service.

Now when I say to a point, yes, there may be companies who are operating on such little profit that they might go belly up and close their doors at the next wage increase. But that is inevitable then. A dead man walking so to speak. If your business model relies on government subsidized labor, you are not a capitalist, and you do not have a viable business model. Hell, even slave owners had to pay the basic living expenses of their labor force.

My dad used to hire teens to clean the parking lot. Now that's not financially feasible, the business hires a service that has a machine to do it.

I will have to reply to your post one piece at a time. Stand by.

 

[EdwardBaiamonte]

Today, you are LUCKY if you can get someone to pack your bags in the first place.

today you are lucky to have a bank teller or phone operator. Their high wages made them worth less than minimum. Thank God the free market allows for rapid progress and the devil allows for liberal soviet intervention.

 

[Jackinthebox]

It makes a difference because very low-skilled low-paying jobs are an important starting point. Many of those jobs will not exist anymore, making your "practical solution" not practical at all. Pay is set according to value derived and a mix between supply and demand, not some moral judgement.

Low skill and low pay are not synonymous. An EMT is a highly skilled worker, yet makes min wage in my area. On the other hand, I worked as a guard at a nuclear power plant for a while. All I did was sit at a desk, made almost $20/hr. Not that it was easy to land that job, but it was about who you know, not what you know.

But in general, saying these jobs "will not exist anymore" is pure nonsense. Min wage and low wage jobs are still tasks that need to be performed in any business. Now granted, there is a shift toward automation in grocery stores, for example. But that is happening anyway, regardless of wages. On the other hand, you will still always need a few live cashiers. Even if they are just overseeing a 4-register automated bank. You will also now have to hire technicians to service that equipment.

Let's pretend for a moment that I own an independent movie theater. Let's say that it takes two ticket agents, four counter staff, and two ushers to staff-out my small theater on a Friday night. Will I eliminate staff because of a state mandated wage increase? Certainly not. (We just had a min wage increase in fact, and no jobs were cut.) The reason being, that I require that staff to properly serve my customers. If I cut staff, I also cut sales, customer satisfaction, and return business. That is a solution for business failure.

No business owner hires a worker they don't need. Not for a buck an hour, not for 20 bucks an hour.

 

[Jackinthebox]

No, discriminate based on the value you provide to the organization.

That is very arbitrary.

It makes no difference to me if you are 16 and living at home, or 60 and living in a nursing home. It makes no difference to me if min wage is $2 or $20. If I need a person standing there to sell popcorn, I need that person standing there. Their "value" is infinite really. Without that worker, I would be out of business.

 

[Jackinthebox]

I might also add here too, that MANY kids who are still living at home, are contributing members to household finances. They are helping pay the rent, not buying video games.

Another statement with no data to back it up

.

I admit, that is not so much about raw data, but personal experience. Among friends, family, and in the experience of the thousands of people I see in my volunteer work at the food pantry.

 

[Jackinthebox]

No, they should work for the price agreed upon when the take the job.

So you support illegal immigration then too I expect?

 

[Jackinthebox]

My dad used to hire teens to clean the parking lot. Now that's not financially feasible, the business hires a service that has a machine to do it.

And he probably pays about as much for the same service.

I used to hire kids to mow my lawn at my businesses. They did it for a lot cheaper than the Mexican landscaping company that does it now. The difference is that my insurance won't let me hire the kids anymore. Its a liability issue.

 

[Jackinthebox]

Today, you are LUCKY if you can get someone to pack your bags in the first place.

today you are lucky to have a bank teller or phone operator. Their high wages made them worth less than minimum. Thank God the free market allows for rapid progress and the devil allows for liberal soviet intervention.

 

[EdwardBaiamonte]

Today, you are LUCKY if you can get someone to pack your bags in the first place.

today you are lucky to have a bank teller or phone operator. Their high wages made them worth less than minimum. Thank God the free market allows for rapid progress and the devil allows for liberal soviet intervention.

typical low IQ liberal thinks he's making an argument by using cartoons!!

 

[asterism]

It makes a difference because very low-skilled low-paying jobs are an important starting point. Many of those jobs will not exist anymore, making your "practical solution" not practical at all. Pay is set according to value derived and a mix between supply and demand, not some moral judgement.

Low skill and low pay are not synonymous. An EMT is a highly skilled worker, yet makes min wage in my area. On the other hand, I worked as a guard at a nuclear power plant for a while. All I did was sit at a desk, made almost $20/hr. Not that it was easy to land that job, but it was about who you know, not what you know.

But in general, saying these jobs "will not exist anymore" is pure nonsense. Min wage and low wage jobs are still tasks that need to be performed in any business. Now granted, there is a shift toward automation in grocery stores, for example. But that is happening anyway, regardless of wages. On the other hand, you will still always need a few live cashiers. Even if they are just overseeing a 4-register automated bank. You will also now have to hire technicians to service that equipment.

Let's pretend for a moment that I own an independent movie theater. Let's say that it takes two ticket agents, four counter staff, and two ushers to staff-out my small theater on a Friday night. Will I eliminate staff because of a state mandated wage increase? Certainly not. (We just had a min wage increase in fact, and no jobs were cut.) The reason being, that I require that staff to properly serve my customers. If I cut staff, I also cut sales, customer satisfaction, and return business. That is a solution for business failure.

No business owner hires a worker they don't need. Not for a buck an hour, not for 20 bucks an hour.

Automation, price increases and cutbacks in service have offset the rise in the minimum wage. In the movie theater where I live there is now 1 ticket taker instead of 3 (longer wait), no ushers at all (used to have 5), 2 people and 5 kiosks for ticket sales instead of 6 people (the empty stations are still there unused), and 1 dedicated snack bar person instead of 10 before.

All for movies and food that cost 3 times as much as before (20 years ago).

 

[reason10]

Here's the problem with all that. It doesn't address whether or not the worker is WORTH $17+ an hour or not. It is not the employer's responsibility. It is the WORKER'S responsibility. If he can't do it on his own, he either has to get a roommate, maybe make his wife work (which a LOT of people do), work two jobs or learn to live a more austere lifestyle. That's the WORKER'S responsibility. No one else's.

 

[Jackinthebox]

Today, you are LUCKY if you can get someone to pack your bags in the first place.

today you are lucky to have a bank teller or phone operator. Their high wages made them worth less than minimum. Thank God the free market allows for rapid progress and the devil allows for liberal soviet intervention.

typical low IQ liberal thinks he's making an argument by using cartoons!!

Typical ignorant Republican thinking that I am a liberal because I am tired of supporting socialist business.

 

[EdwardBaiamonte]

All for movies and food that cost 3 times as much as before (20 years ago).

and your point is?

 

[Jackinthebox]

Automation, price increases and cutbacks in service have offset the rise in the minimum wage. In the movie theater where I live there is now 1 ticket taker instead of 3 (longer wait), no ushers at all (used to have 5), 2 people and 5 kiosks for ticket sales instead of 6 people (the empty stations are still there unused), and 1 dedicated snack bar person instead of 10 before.

All for movies and food that cost 3 times as much as before (20 years ago).

So in other words automation costs more, with less customer satisfaction.

 

[EdwardBaiamonte]

Here's the problem with all that. It doesn't address whether or not the worker is WORTH $17+ an hour or not. It is not the employer's responsibility. It is the WORKER'S responsibility. If he can't do it on his own, he either has to get a roommate, maybe make his wife work (which a LOT of people do), work two jobs or learn to live a more austere lifestyle. That's the WORKER'S responsibility. No one else's.

very true. Liberals destroyed love and family and now social welfare programs have to foot the bill for single person households. Without welfare people would learn to get along better and families would reform.

 

[asterism]

No, discriminate based on the value you provide to the organization.

That is very arbitrary.

It makes no difference to me if you are 16 and living at home, or 60 and living in a nursing home. It makes no difference to me if min wage is $2 or $20. If I need a person standing there to sell popcorn, I need that person standing there. Their "value" is infinite really. Without that worker, I would be out of business.

You're correct, the personal circumstances of the employee makes no difference. It's a matter of supply, demand, and whether a business can generate the value. Full service gas stations are anomalies when they used to be the standard. Most baggers used to carry groceries to cars and now they don't (except for Publix). Why? Because those jobs don't generate enough value to offset the costs.