Another Anti Gun Study Uses Gangs To Boost Numbers...

[2aguy]

The open carry dude pulls his gun, stops the robbery and tell the robber to leave.

You don't understand why he told the guy to leave...he did it to stop the potential for a shoot out...isn't that what all you gun grabbers bitch and moan about...

You make up stories about crazy gun people who can't control themselves and just can't wait to kill criminals....and when they don't...you say they should have...it is either a case of "projection" where you want to kill those criminals...or when confronted with the truth about gun owners, that they are regular people who don't want to shoot anyone, but realize that one day they might face a monster....your world view collapses and you can't handle it...

 

[2aguy]

And that part about how much trouble you will be in in the case of shooting someone. Are you sure about your statement about how much trouble a person would be in for acting in self defense?

Massad Ayoob is a gun expert and testifies as an expert witness. He gave a lecture on self defense and told the story of an actual case in Iowa...a non stand your ground state...a black man was attacked by 3 white men and shot one of them in self defense...since it wasn't a stand your ground state, the prosecutor had him arrested and held for trial...since he didn't have the money to post bond...

Massad Ayoob stated that this man sat in jail for 90 days...after 30 days he recieved and eviction notice because his landlord found out he was being held for attempted murder...since he was in jail, he never got the notice and 30 days later his property was put out of the Apartment...where his computer and other goods were then taken by people in the area...

He eventually won his trial...but he had no job...his employer found out as well, no home, no belongings and in debt to pay for his legal fees....and Ayoob used this case to show how important stand your ground laws are...

That is how much trouble you can get into if you shoot in an actual case of self defense...

 

[2aguy]

AtticusF...here is the Massad Ayoob video where he explains the need for stand your ground laws...at the 13:00 mark he tells the story I mentioned of how a man's life was ruined when he defended himself...there were only 2 attackers...not 3...

 

[PredFan]

.

 

[AtticusF]

AtticusF...here is the Massad Ayoob video where he explains the need for stand your ground laws...at the 13:00 mark he tells the story I mentioned of how a man's life was ruined when he defended himself...there were only 2 attackers...not 3...

Cracks me up every time I read some gunner quoting Massad Ayoob. This guy makes a living teaching white folks how to shoot the scarry black and Brown people.

 

[JoeB131]

H

And again, from having posted it before...guns save lives and stop violent crime at least 760,000 times a year and that number could be as high as 3 million times a year. These numbers come from research from at least 15 different studies, conducted over 19 years...and that doesn't include obama's study from the CDS that found the number of times a gun is used to save a life and stop violent crime comes in at 500,000 times a year...and that came from studying 19 different gun studies....

Uh, guy, according to the FBI, only 201 cases of homicide with a gun by civilians in 2011 were ruled "Justifiable Self Defense".

FBI mdash Expanded Homicide Data Table 15

So what you are going to have us believe is that 100,000 or 760,000 or 3,000,000 "Defensive Gun Uses" happen every year, and only 200 of them resulted in a dead body.

So you are saying that 99.8% to 99.9992% of the time, your Second Amendment Purist WHIPS OUT HIS GUN and yet is able to face down his attacker by force of will without having to shoot him dead.

Given the murder fantasies we see here by Gun Enthusiasts every day, the folks who idolize Zimmerman because he was "living the dream", I really find this hard to believe.

The fact that there are over 100k times in which a gun is used to stop a crime, and only 201 criminals shot dead pretty much disproves your theory that gun buffs are chomping at the bit to shoot people. This claim of yours that gun buffs fantasize about killing is as bogus as many of your "factoids".

Uh, no, not really. It just shows how bogus the 100K claim is.

Come on, check out some of your buddies here, like ChrisLoony and Ditchweed and Spambot, who spend a lot of time fantasizing about that happy day they can go plug them a minority criminal.

I can't believe that when that oppurtunity comes, you all pass it up.

 

[WinterBorn]

H

And again, from having posted it before...guns save lives and stop violent crime at least 760,000 times a year and that number could be as high as 3 million times a year. These numbers come from research from at least 15 different studies, conducted over 19 years...and that doesn't include obama's study from the CDS that found the number of times a gun is used to save a life and stop violent crime comes in at 500,000 times a year...and that came from studying 19 different gun studies....

Uh, guy, according to the FBI, only 201 cases of homicide with a gun by civilians in 2011 were ruled "Justifiable Self Defense".

FBI mdash Expanded Homicide Data Table 15

So what you are going to have us believe is that 100,000 or 760,000 or 3,000,000 "Defensive Gun Uses" happen every year, and only 200 of them resulted in a dead body.

So you are saying that 99.8% to 99.9992% of the time, your Second Amendment Purist WHIPS OUT HIS GUN and yet is able to face down his attacker by force of will without having to shoot him dead.

Given the murder fantasies we see here by Gun Enthusiasts every day, the folks who idolize Zimmerman because he was "living the dream", I really find this hard to believe.

The fact that there are over 100k times in which a gun is used to stop a crime, and only 201 criminals shot dead pretty much disproves your theory that gun buffs are chomping at the bit to shoot people. This claim of yours that gun buffs fantasize about killing is as bogus as many of your "factoids".

Uh, no, not really. It just shows how bogus the 100K claim is.

Come on, check out some of your buddies here, like ChrisLoony and Ditchweed and Spambot, who spend a lot of time fantasizing about that happy day they can go plug them a minority criminal.

I can't believe that when that oppurtunity comes, you all pass it up.

Yeah, that is what you WANT to believe. But the numerous studies all point to hundreds of thousands of crimes stopped by civilians with firearms. In this thread there is the discussion of the guy in the convenience store who let the armed robber go. That is a civilian stopping a crime that did not result in a dead criminal. Your fantasies about gun owners being bloodthirsty is your own issue.

 

[WinterBorn]

AtticusF...here is the Massad Ayoob video where he explains the need for stand your ground laws...at the 13:00 mark he tells the story I mentioned of how a man's life was ruined when he defended himself...there were only 2 attackers...not 3...

Cracks me up every time I read some gunner quoting Massad Ayoob. This guy makes a living teaching white folks how to shoot the scarry black and Brown people.

Massad Ayoob makes a living teaching people how to shoot. That you claim it is about black or brown people is your own issue, not mine. Ayoob is a decent writer as well.

 

[zeke]

And that part about how much trouble you will be in in the case of shooting someone. Are you sure about your statement about how much trouble a person would be in for acting in self defense?

Massad Ayoob is a gun expert and testifies as an expert witness. He gave a lecture on self defense and told the story of an actual case in Iowa...a non stand your ground state...a black man was attacked by 3 white men and shot one of them in self defense...since it wasn't a stand your ground state, the prosecutor had him arrested and held for trial...since he didn't have the money to post bond...

Massad Ayoob stated that this man sat in jail for 90 days...after 30 days he recieved and eviction notice because his landlord found out he was being held for attempted murder...since he was in jail, he never got the notice and 30 days later his property was put out of the Apartment...where his computer and other goods were then taken by people in the area...

He eventually won his trial...but he had no job...his employer found out as well, no home, no belongings and in debt to pay for his legal fees....and Ayoob used this case to show how important stand your ground laws are...

That is how much trouble you can get into if you shoot in an actual case of self defense...

Hey, isn't this that point in time where you claim; it is better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6.?
Sure it is.

Isn't that why so many people like you are carrying a weapon? To defend yourself and others?

Now you are telling me that IF you use a weapon the trouble it will cause will be greater than the original crime might have been.

Lets use your example. Guy shoots another because he was gonna be robbed and or beaten. What did he have in his pocket? Maybe a couple hundred dollars at most. How bad would the robbery and beating have been compared to the loss that you so aptly describe?

Seems to me that losing a couple hundred dollars and taking an asswhipping vs losing EVERYTHING the guy worked to have, would have been a much better choice.

But I am sure you would rather be judged by 12 than carried by 6.

So your either scared to death to use your weapon because of the possible legal consequences or you are scared to death that someone gonna rob you but either way you are scared..

Maybe you should just leave your weapons at home. Where they won't get you in any trouble. You do know you can shoot someone who has broken into your home. And probably not get in any trouble.

Seems to be the shooting in public places that is causing you problems.

And when the guy in the Circle K told the robber to leave the store with gun in hand, what was stopping the robber from opening fire AFTER he exited the store? Nothing was stopping the robber from doing that.
So the guy with the gun stopped the robbery but did absolutely nothing the mitigate the treat of a robber still armed and lose.

And you think that was good eh?

 

[zeke]

H

And again, from having posted it before...guns save lives and stop violent crime at least 760,000 times a year and that number could be as high as 3 million times a year. These numbers come from research from at least 15 different studies, conducted over 19 years...and that doesn't include obama's study from the CDS that found the number of times a gun is used to save a life and stop violent crime comes in at 500,000 times a year...and that came from studying 19 different gun studies....

Uh, guy, according to the FBI, only 201 cases of homicide with a gun by civilians in 2011 were ruled "Justifiable Self Defense".

FBI mdash Expanded Homicide Data Table 15

So what you are going to have us believe is that 100,000 or 760,000 or 3,000,000 "Defensive Gun Uses" happen every year, and only 200 of them resulted in a dead body.

So you are saying that 99.8% to 99.9992% of the time, your Second Amendment Purist WHIPS OUT HIS GUN and yet is able to face down his attacker by force of will without having to shoot him dead.

Given the murder fantasies we see here by Gun Enthusiasts every day, the folks who idolize Zimmerman because he was "living the dream", I really find this hard to believe.

The fact that there are over 100k times in which a gun is used to stop a crime, and only 201 criminals shot dead pretty much disproves your theory that gun buffs are chomping at the bit to shoot people. This claim of yours that gun buffs fantasize about killing is as bogus as many of your "factoids".

Uh, no, not really. It just shows how bogus the 100K claim is.

Come on, check out some of your buddies here, like ChrisLoony and Ditchweed and Spambot, who spend a lot of time fantasizing about that happy day they can go plug them a minority criminal.

I can't believe that when that oppurtunity comes, you all pass it up.

Yeah, that is what you WANT to believe. But the numerous studies all point to hundreds of thousands of crimes stopped by civilians with firearms. In this thread there is the discussion of the guy in the convenience store who let the armed robber go. That is a civilian stopping a crime that did not result in a dead criminal. Your fantasies about gun owners being bloodthirsty is your own issue.

You never did say whether or not I stopped a "crime" when I went to my door with pistol in hand to see a couple shady looking people whose car had broken down.

Was that a DGU or not? And is self reporting the only way DGU info is collected. There is no police report to see. No crime committed. So how is DGU info collected?

 

[WinterBorn]

H

And again, from having posted it before...guns save lives and stop violent crime at least 760,000 times a year and that number could be as high as 3 million times a year. These numbers come from research from at least 15 different studies, conducted over 19 years...and that doesn't include obama's study from the CDS that found the number of times a gun is used to save a life and stop violent crime comes in at 500,000 times a year...and that came from studying 19 different gun studies....

Uh, guy, according to the FBI, only 201 cases of homicide with a gun by civilians in 2011 were ruled "Justifiable Self Defense".

FBI mdash Expanded Homicide Data Table 15

So what you are going to have us believe is that 100,000 or 760,000 or 3,000,000 "Defensive Gun Uses" happen every year, and only 200 of them resulted in a dead body.

So you are saying that 99.8% to 99.9992% of the time, your Second Amendment Purist WHIPS OUT HIS GUN and yet is able to face down his attacker by force of will without having to shoot him dead.

Given the murder fantasies we see here by Gun Enthusiasts every day, the folks who idolize Zimmerman because he was "living the dream", I really find this hard to believe.

The fact that there are over 100k times in which a gun is used to stop a crime, and only 201 criminals shot dead pretty much disproves your theory that gun buffs are chomping at the bit to shoot people. This claim of yours that gun buffs fantasize about killing is as bogus as many of your "factoids".

Uh, no, not really. It just shows how bogus the 100K claim is.

Come on, check out some of your buddies here, like ChrisLoony and Ditchweed and Spambot, who spend a lot of time fantasizing about that happy day they can go plug them a minority criminal.

I can't believe that when that oppurtunity comes, you all pass it up.

Yeah, that is what you WANT to believe. But the numerous studies all point to hundreds of thousands of crimes stopped by civilians with firearms. In this thread there is the discussion of the guy in the convenience store who let the armed robber go. That is a civilian stopping a crime that did not result in a dead criminal. Your fantasies about gun owners being bloodthirsty is your own issue.

You never did say whether or not I stopped a "crime" when I went to my door with pistol in hand to see a couple shady looking people whose car had broken down.

Was that a DGU or not? And is self reporting the only way DGU info is collected. There is no police report to see. No crime committed. So how is DGU info collected?

No I didn't answer the question. It would depend on the circumstances beyond what you described. For example, did they see the gun? Did they leave, driving away in the broken down car?

Yes, DGU is mostly self reported, since there is no police report. But considering the large number of respondents to polls by numerous professional groups, I think it is safe to say that the smaller number (100k) is at least valid.

 

[2aguy]

Come on, check out some of your buddies here, like ChrisLoony and Ditchweed and Spambot, who spend a lot of time fantasizing about that happy day they can go plug them a minority criminal.

Cracks me up every time I read some gunner quoting Massad Ayoob. This guy makes a living teaching white folks how to shoot the scarry black and Brown people.

These are examples of projection...

Psychological projection - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia

Psychological projection is a theory in psychology in which humans defend themselves against unpleasant impulses by denying their existence in themselves, while attributing them to others.[1] For example, a person who is rude may constantly accuse other people of being rude.

Both of you guys have some serious issues to deal with...before you hurt yourself or others...constantly attributing horrible things to people you disagree with is really just a cry for help...please...get help...

 

[2aguy]

Uh, no, not really. It just shows how bogus the 100K claim is.

True, at least 13 seperate studies put the number of times guns are used to save lives and stop crime to at least 760,000 times a year...a Justice Dept. study put the number at 1.5 million and obama's CDC in 2013 put the lowest number at 500,000 and up to 3 million a year...

 

[2aguy]

This is a pretty good breakdown of Kleck's methods...

Myth 3 - 2.5 million defensive gun uses each year can t be accurate Buckeye Firearms Association

The data for the Kleck study were collected using an anonymous nationwide random-digit-dialed telephone survey of 4,977 adults conducted from February through April of 1993 by Research Network, a telephone polling company located in Tallahassee, FL. After a few general questions about problems in their community and crime, those polled were asked "Within the past five years, have you yourself or another member of your household used a gun, even if it was not fired, for self-protection or for the protection of property at home, work, or elsewhere? Please do not include military service, police work, or work as a security guard."

Those who answered "Yes" were then asked whether their defensive use was against an animal or a person, asked to state how many defensive gun use incidents against persons had happened to members of their household in the last five years, and asked whether any of the incident or incidents had occurred in the last twelve months. Of those surveyed, 222 respondents reported DGUs within the past five years. All respondents reporting DGU, as well as 20% of those not reporting a DGU, were called back to validate their initial survey interviews. These raw data were then corrected for oversampling in the South and West regions, where gun ownership is highest; and oversampling for males, who are not only more likely to own guns, but also more likely to be victims of violent crime.

The weighted results (corrected for oversampling built into the survey) were these: 1.125% to 1.326% of respondents reported having personally been involved in a DGU incident within the past year, with 1.366% to 1.587% of households reporting a household member being involved in a DGU incident within the past year (which would include those DGUs mentioned above involving the respondent).

Calculations based on the estimated adult population of the U.S. and the estimated number of households in the U.S. show that at this rate there would be 2,163,519 to 2,549,862 DGUs in 1993 if considered on an individual basis, or some 1,325,918 to 1,540,405 DGU-involved households. For comparison, the estimated number of violent crimes committed with guns in 1993 was 588,140, according to the FBI's Uniform Crime Reports.

 

[2aguy]

The important parts addressing why his study is more accurate than other studies...

First, consider some factors which could produce an overestimate. The sample size, or number of persons surveyed, while smaller than the NCVS, is several times larger than that usually used in most public opinion polls. Extrapolating from too small of a sample is one way to get an overestimate, but this is not a problem for Kleck's survey, since the Gallup Poll and the Roper Center routinely use samples smaller than this for their national surveys. (The results of such national polls are often promoted as newsworthy.)

As Kleck notes, the random sampling error of his survey is less than 1%. The phenomenon known as "telescoping," in which past events are remembered as being much more recent than they actually are, could account for some increase in reported DGUs, but Kleck's survey, which uses two time periods, asking about events in the past five years, and within the last twelve months, takes this into account. Kleck's definition of a DGU to include defense of property could serve to increase the number of reported DGUs, since use of deadly force to protect property is not legally recognized in many states. Kleck notes however, that it was not the purpose of the survey to discern the legality or morality of the respondent's actions.

 

[JoeB131]

Yeah, that is what you WANT to believe. But the numerous studies all point to hundreds of thousands of crimes stopped by civilians with firearms. In this thread there is the discussion of the guy in the convenience store who let the armed robber go. That is a civilian stopping a crime that did not result in a dead criminal. Your fantasies about gun owners being bloodthirsty is your own issue.

No, it's a guy who let a crime happen somewhere else. The crook did not go home and rethink his life.

And, no, 100K DGU's is a complete fantasy. But even if it weren't, we have 32,000 gun deaths, 78,000 gun injuries and 300,000 crimes committed WITH guns. On balance, the amount of carnage guns cause fair outweigh their benefit.

 

[JoeB131]

Uh, no, not really. It just shows how bogus the 100K claim is.

True, at least 13 seperate studies put the number of times guns are used to save lives and stop crime to at least 760,000 times a year...a Justice Dept. study put the number at 1.5 million and obama's CDC in 2013 put the lowest number at 500,000 and up to 3 million a year...

And they are still all horseshit numbers.

Here's the only real number.

According to the FBI, only 201 homicides by civilians were ruled as self-defense . A gun in the home is 43 times more likely to kill a household member than a bad guy.

 

[WinterBorn]

Uh, no, not really. It just shows how bogus the 100K claim is.

True, at least 13 seperate studies put the number of times guns are used to save lives and stop crime to at least 760,000 times a year...a Justice Dept. study put the number at 1.5 million and obama's CDC in 2013 put the lowest number at 500,000 and up to 3 million a year...

And they are still all horseshit numbers.

Here's the only real number.

According to the FBI, only 201 homicides by civilians were ruled as self-defense . A gun in the home is 43 times more likely to kill a household member than a bad guy.

Because you are obsessed with death. I posted quite a few detailed bits about how they formulate the DGU numbers. The 100k one is much smaller than what most experts consider accurate.

 

[JoeB131]

[

Because you are obsessed with death. I posted quite a few detailed bits about how they formulate the DGU numbers. The 100k one is much smaller than what most experts consider accurate.

There are other gun whacks who consider 2.5 million "accurate". I think one of them is posting on this thread.

Of course, every other civilized country doesn't allow most of its citizens to have more guns than people, and oddly, they don't have anywhere near or crime rate.

If guns and prisons make us safer, why don't any of us feel particularly safe?

 

[zeke]

Uh, guy, according to the FBI, only 201 cases of homicide with a gun by civilians in 2011 were ruled "Justifiable Self Defense".

FBI mdash Expanded Homicide Data Table 15

So what you are going to have us believe is that 100,000 or 760,000 or 3,000,000 "Defensive Gun Uses" happen every year, and only 200 of them resulted in a dead body.

So you are saying that 99.8% to 99.9992% of the time, your Second Amendment Purist WHIPS OUT HIS GUN and yet is able to face down his attacker by force of will without having to shoot him dead.

Given the murder fantasies we see here by Gun Enthusiasts every day, the folks who idolize Zimmerman because he was "living the dream", I really find this hard to believe.

The fact that there are over 100k times in which a gun is used to stop a crime, and only 201 criminals shot dead pretty much disproves your theory that gun buffs are chomping at the bit to shoot people. This claim of yours that gun buffs fantasize about killing is as bogus as many of your "factoids".

Uh, no, not really. It just shows how bogus the 100K claim is.

Come on, check out some of your buddies here, like ChrisLoony and Ditchweed and Spambot, who spend a lot of time fantasizing about that happy day they can go plug them a minority criminal.

I can't believe that when that oppurtunity comes, you all pass it up.

Yeah, that is what you WANT to believe. But the numerous studies all point to hundreds of thousands of crimes stopped by civilians with firearms. In this thread there is the discussion of the guy in the convenience store who let the armed robber go. That is a civilian stopping a crime that did not result in a dead criminal. Your fantasies about gun owners being bloodthirsty is your own issue.

You never did say whether or not I stopped a "crime" when I went to my door with pistol in hand to see a couple shady looking people whose car had broken down.

Was that a DGU or not? And is self reporting the only way DGU info is collected. There is no police report to see. No crime committed. So how is DGU info collected?

No I didn't answer the question. It would depend on the circumstances beyond what you described. For example, did they see the gun? Did they leave, driving away in the broken down car?

Yes, DGU is mostly self reported, since there is no police report. But considering the large number of respondents to polls by numerous professional groups, I think it is safe to say that the smaller number (100k) is at least valid.

According to Kleck, 53% of those claiming DGU DID NOT SHOW A GUN. And I asked myself the same question; how is that DGU if I never showed the weapon.

But Kleck says it is and you all love what Kleck says. So it was a DGU that I can add to the stats. Cool.
Little bit suspect and I think having a 100 pound American Bulldog raising hell in the background was probably more pertinent.

But hey, if I want to report that I stopped a crime with a gun, well who's to know different. Right. Just like all these others reporting DGU. Who really knows what happened? Besides me.