Zone1 Are any Christians here interested to know WHY Jews don’t believe Jesus was the Messiah?

[rosends]

I thought there were two goats. One was chased into the wilderness. The other was killed

Yes, but the one sent to the wilderness was to Azazel (and wasn't sacrificed).

 

[rosends]

Well, Chaucer and Shakespeare wrote about Palestine.

Yes, because it was a region on a map.

 

[rosends]

"​

Modern Musar literature[edit]​

Literature in the genre of Musar literature continued to be written by modern Jews from a variety of backgrounds.

Mesillat Yesharim[edit]​

Mesilat Yesharim (Path of the Just): cover page
Main article: Mesillat Yesharim
Mesillat Yesharim is a Musar text published in Amsterdam by Moshe Chaim Luzzatto in the 18th century. Mesillat Yesharim is perhaps the most important work of Musar literature of the post-medieval period. The Vilna Gaon commented that he couldn't find a superfluous word in the first seven chapters of the work, and stated that he would have traveled to meet the author and learn from his ways if he'd still been alive."

Musar literature - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

The rabbi who wrote one of, if not the most important Musar texts in the post-medieval period, is dismissed as not having an important role in Musar or not being an authority. You love to quibble, ignoring the main point about the RAMCHAL saying that the gentile is like an article of clothing for the Jew, in his book titled Derech Hashem. I have it, in Hebrew and in English.

So it is a work that is important in the musar movement. Sure. I said that a couple of times. But Luzzatto was in no way a founder of the Musar movement, and that was your claim.

Can you tell me in what section he makes a comment about the shirt? I found that he says "שמצד טבע האנושי נראה היותם שוים באמת ומצד עניני התורה הם שונים שינוי גדול" which would certainly mitigate if not contradict your claim, but I await your exact citation. You know, just like you found "several books that identify him as one of the founders of the Musar movement." Still waiting on that one.

I did find this, "ולנפש חסידי אומות העולם ינתן מציאות בבחינה נוספת ונספחת על ישראל עצמם ונטפלים להם כלבוש הנטפל לאדם" which says that non-Jews (according to Luzzatto) who are found in the next world will not attain the level of "reward" that Jews receive. One way to read that line is that non-Jews there will hang on to Jews like a piece of clothing, and another way is that the reward will be on the non-Jews the way a person wears a shirt (which would indicate a more external aspect to the reward).

You put so much weight on the isolated quotes from this one author. Why is that? There are plenty of authors who say otherwise, and plenty of other quotes which (as stated earlier) seriously mitigate your extreme understanding of the text.

 

[TruthNotBS]

That’s not what we’re taught NOW. We are taught only we can atone for our actions, as opposed to Christians being taught NOW that they will be “saved” by someone else. That is why people like Christian Man feel comfortable insulting and harassing Jews - when speaking directly to Jews - and think he’ll still get to Heaven.

Lisa criticizes Christians for believing Jesus died for them, and saves them. You believe being Jewish saves you, because rabbinic Judaism asserts all Jews (everyone with a Jewish soul), including George Soros and Karl Marx, will eventually have a place in the World To Come. The requirement is having Jewish pedigree or a Jewish mom, and that's it, you're going to heaven. The non-Jews, only go to the Jewish heaven, if they pledge their unconditional allegiance to the Jewish Secular State Of Israel, and keep the laws of Noah, as a Noachide (the loneliest, most depressing, isolated religion in the world).

If you're that Noachide, you know that weird goy-guy, who's in religious limbo because he's not a Jew and he's not a Christian anymore. He's just alone, an outsider, forever, because the rabbi keeps saying "Hey you were born a goy, so you should remain a goy", and "If God wanted you to be a Jew, you would've been born one". Noachide = No community, isolation, orbiting the Jews like space debris..." Whose that guy?"..."He's a Noachide, He's not Jewish", "He orbits the synagogue, he's a goy groupie".

 

[surada]

Yes, because it was a region on a map.

So did Ibn Battuta and Rabbi Benjamin Tudela. There were very few Jews in the Holy Land.

 

[Woodznutz]

Like Azazzel?

Azazel was the guilty party, not the innocent sacrifice.

 

[TruthNotBS]

So it is a work that is important in the musar movement. Sure. I said that a couple of times. But Luzzatto was in no way a founder of the Musar movement, and that was your claim.

Can you tell me in what section he makes a comment about the shirt? I found that he says "שמצד טבע האנושי נראה היותם שוים באמת ומצד עניני התורה הם שונים שינוי גדול" which would certainly mitigate if not contradict your claim, but I await your exact citation. You know, just like you found "several books that identify him as one of the founders of the Musar movement." Still waiting on that one.

I did find this, "ולנפש חסידי אומות העולם ינתן מציאות בבחינה נוספת ונספחת על ישראל עצמם ונטפלים להם כלבוש הנטפל לאדם" which says that non-Jews (according to Luzzatto) who are found in the next world will not attain the level of "reward" that Jews receive. One way to read that line is that non-Jews there will hang on to Jews like a piece of clothing, and another way is that the reward will be on the non-Jews the way a person wears a shirt (which would indicate a more external aspect to the reward).

You put so much weight on the isolated quotes from this one author. Why is that? There are plenty of authors who say otherwise, and plenty of other quotes which (as stated earlier) seriously mitigate your extreme understanding of the text.

The RAMCHAL clearly states that the goyim in the world to come are but an article of clothing, something that is inferior to the Jew, finding its purpose in the service of Jews.

He also states that the high tzadik can purge all of creation with his suffering. He sparks the process of redemption, at a cosmic level.

RaMChaL zt”l on Suffering of a Tzaddik, Atonement, and Perfection – 13 Petals

www.13petals.org

​

 

[Woodznutz]

From the penteteuch . Sacrifice for atonement.

The 'goat for the Lord' was the atonement sacrifice. The goat for Azazel was the goat that escaped into the wilderness.

 

[surada]

The 'goat for the Lord' was the atonement sacrifice. The goat for Azazel was the goat that escaped into the wilderness.

Nope.

Azazel - New World Encyclopedia

www.newworldencyclopedia.org

 

[Tom Paine 1949]

I’m having fun reading Wikipedia articles on the historical Jewish movements mentioned here, and laughing at the prejudices and other strange ideas that “true believers” of one religion often hold toward believers in other religions.

That Judaism arose as a tribal monotheist religion and that Christianity later grew out of it becoming a much more “universal” religion is … I think we can all agree … more or less historically true.

But it seems to me claiming “truth” or even “moral superiority” for either religion (or any religion) is impossible and basically only a fool’s errand. Not that these issues can’t be discussed respectfully and in an enlightening manner!

What makes “enlightened” discussion more difficult is that each and every major ancient religion has evolved over time and encompasses different sects, while most of these sects themselves embrace different religious life styles.

Modern and rabbinical Judaism seems to be especially diverse in this respect. Organized Christian clergymen and regular Christians have likewise tried, not always successfully, to adapt to the new needs of the modern world.

The challenge for thinking religious people today, it seems to me, ought to be to try to interpret the “texts” and precepts of their religion in an enlightened and reasonable way.

Today, as in the past, we live in a world which is hardly either especially “moral” or “universalist.” Nationalism and “identify politics” have re-emerged as powerful impulses that often undercut truly universal human morality and civic and political life too. Angry religious identity politics reflects this reality all too clearly.

 

[surada]

Primetime 'news' at Fox has a shakeup; apparently, Laura Ingraham was fired.

Thoughts and prayers for the evil fucks at Fox News: Now that Fucker Tucker Carlson has been fired, Fox News has reshuffled its prime-time lineup. According to The Daily Beast, Laura Ingraham is not included in that lineup after The Drudge Report...

www.dailykos.com

 

[Woodznutz]

Nope.

Azazel - New World Encyclopedia

www.newworldencyclopedia.org

The goat for Azazel represents Satan.
The goat for the Lord represents Jesus.

 

[surada]

The goat for Azazel represents Satan.
The goat for the Lord represents Jesus.

You didn't read the link.

 

[Woodznutz]

You didn't read the link.

I read the whole thing.
Neither the Biblical narrative nor the Hebrew word meanings support the Jewish version of the event.

 

[theHawk]

How can 90% be communists when 30% are Republicans? That’s just your antisemitic sentiment talking.

Not all Jews are in America. The ones in Europe are very liberal.

 

[theHawk]

The only Jew I know who wants a one world order is George Soros, and I don’t know that he says it’s got to be led by a Jew.

Other than a small number of far left radical Jews, Jews do not want communism. And don’t forget that one-third of Jews vote Republican.

Perhaps. Maybe most of these “Jews” are fake Jews. It seems like a whole lot of them in Hollywood and the media are atheist types but also claim to be Jewish.

 

[Tom Paine 1949]

Perhaps. Maybe most of these “Jews” are fake Jews. It seems like a whole lot of them in Hollywood and the media are atheist types but also claim to be Jewish.

Who are you to judge who is “a real Jew”?
Do you consider yourself “a real Christian”?
What sect of Christianity do you belong to?
Is the Pope a “fake Christian” or “a real Christian” … or some kind of heretic or “communist” … in your view?

 

[theHawk]

Who are you to judge who is “a real Jew”?
Do you consider yourself “a real Christian”?
What sect of Christianity do you belong to?
Is the Pope a “fake Christian” or “a real Christian” … or some kind of heretic or “communist” … in your view?

It’s hard to define what an actual Jew is these days. I started a whole thread about it.

Some people say it’s a racial thing, but also a religion. Maybe that it is just what one ”race” of people mainly practice out of ”tradition” because their ancestors practiced it. Yet the Judaism of today in no way matches what it was nearly two thousand years ago.

I am a Christian, Jesus is my king. Jesus is the messiah, who was prophesied to be the King of all Israel. Yet these “Jews” say he is not their king, not their messiah. How can they be Jews if they are not apart of Israel, the Kingdom of Jesus?

The Pope is just the bishop of Rome. He can and will be replaced, so it is of little significance what his politics are.

 

[Tom Paine 1949]

It’s hard to define what an actual Jew is these days. I started a whole thread about it.

Some people say it’s a racial thing, but also a religion. Maybe that it is just what one ”race” of people mainly practice out of ”tradition” because their ancestors practiced it. Yet the Judaism of today in no way matches what it was nearly two thousand years ago.

I am a Christian, Jesus is my king. Jesus is the messiah, who was prophesied to be the King of all Israel. Yet these “Jews” say he is not their king, not their messiah. How can they be Jews if they are not apart of Israel, the Kingdom of Jesus?

The Pope is just the bishop of Rome. He can and will be replaced, so it is of little significance what his politics are.

Well, that’s fair enough … I suppose. I more or less agree with your first two paragraphs, but I think Jews today are mainly just “a people” born into a deep Jewish intellectual culture & tradition, not primarily either a “racial” group or a religious group — though their traditions were of course originally tribal and religious. What they have in common is a unique history, which includes a symbiotic and not always pleasant relationship with Christianity. I agree they are certainly very different than they were 2,000 years ago! How could they not be?

Your third paragraph is your personal religious or spiritual identity. I just don’t really get the “King of Israel” business … because I figure in my pedestrian way that Netanyahu is the closest thing Israel has to being “a King” … at least these days.

Sounds a bit like you are some kind of “Christian Zionist” who hopes to convert the Jews. I gotta warn you I think you’re not likely to have much luck. Not even Jesus could do that, and we all know he could walk on water.

 

[rosends]

So did Ibn Battuta and Rabbi Benjamin Tudela. There were very few Jews in the Holy Land.

Yes at certain times there were small numbers. Sometimes even those small groups were attacked. Life was not easy but Jews never left.

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