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I try hard not to decide what stories from another culture mean, but like you, it did leave me with the impression that the either the fruit of the tree was not quite ripe--or, alternately, mankind wasn't quite mature enough to consume it.Interesting. So they think that if they ate it when it was ripe, they would not have suffered the fall?
While I know about the traditions that teach that meat eating is a concession to man's nature I don't know of any verse right before the one I referenced that says that mankind's imagination is evil continually. There is a verse 3 full chapters before which reads, "God saw how great was human wickedness on earth—how every plan devised by the human mind was nothing but evil all the time." But that relates to the people who were eventually killed in the flood. Right after that, "But Noah found favor with God."Just a few verses before that He stated "mankind's imagination is evil continually".... There are different interpretations of the verse you brought up, but at best what you have is, God giving mankind over to what our hardened selfish hearts want.... but that certainly doesn't mean it's what GOD wants.
In other words, God's perfect will and ideal > what God temporarily gives us over to in this fallen world.
That said, I gotta go. I have an appt and have to leave in 10 minutes.
Wish I could, rosends, but I have been reading this stuff for decades and talking with anyone who is comfortable speaking to me about it. This, like the lore that people of Jesus' day were picturing a return to Eden just as easily as they were speaking of The Messiah, isn't something on which I was recording notes at all--let alone detailed notes. My interest is in how people (both living and those who lived in the past) perceive God, especially the idea of God in our midst.Can you show me a source for that story please?
Jews don't believe in the idea of the fall of mankind, or original sin. we also don't believe in fallen angels and the devil.So are you saying that certain Jews or all of them don't believe in the fall of Adam and Eve or is that just your opinion?
Do Jews hold the belief that mankind was taken from the Garden of Eden and not allowed to return? If so, was this a decision by God's, not because of anything anyone did?Jews don't believe in the idea of the fall of mankind,
Mankind was taken out because his nature had changed with the internalization of an evil inclination so he no longer "fit" in the garden.Do Jews hold the belief that mankind was taken from the Garden of Eden and not allowed to return? If so, was this a decision by God's, not because of anything anyone did?
Thank you. This also fits the idea of Original Sin, with 'sin' meaning to "miss the mark/target". Mankind missed the mark with that internalization of evil inclination that made life in the garden incompatible with his nature?Mankind was taken out because his nature had changed with the internalization of an evil inclination so he no longer "fit" in the garden.
Mankind was taken out because his nature had changed with the internalization of an evil inclination so he no longer "fit" in the garden.
Focus was on the spiritual life of mankind, not the physical. Nudity was also mentioned, which calls to mind Jesus' comments about the lilies of the field, and his noting that God is aware of what our bodies need.
People in Biblical times were yearning for a time when God, not an earthly ruler, managed the people. If it is your thought they wanted to go back to a time where they did not eat meat and went without clothes, I see no harm in you pursuing that. My own thought is that it appears people of Biblical times wanted the rule of God. Again, if this delights you because of the certainty no one will be eating meat or wear no clothes...so what. I see them picturing a just, merciful, loving society with a ruler they all adore.
It my understanding even with the advent of the Jewish Messiah, the prophecies noted that while there would be a long period of peace and prosperity, it would still eventually fail because human leadership fails--that it is God's coming to rule the Earth that will bring lasting peace and prosperity. That became known as The Day of the Lord.
I focus on the portion of your post I am addressing. No offense intended.I love how you cut off the rest of my post in your quote to make it sound like my position is the EXACT opposite of what I just finished saying.
While I know about the traditions that teach that meat eating is a concession to man's nature I don't know of any verse right before the one I referenced that says that mankind's imagination is evil continually. There is a verse 3 full chapters before which reads, "God saw how great was human wickedness on earth—how every plan devised by the human mind was nothing but evil all the time." But that relates to the people who were eventually killed in the flood. Right after that, "But Noah found favor with God."
God doesn't tell Noach after the flood "feel free to do anything because I concede mankind's selfish heart" and people want a whole lot of stuff besides meat. I would look forward to a thread about the issue of vegetarianism as a desirable mode of living based on biblical text and classical commentators.
I understand your focus. If you wish to start with people being kind to animals, go with it. I am not arguing against it, merely continuing with my own focus with each person's relationship with God and other people. From the beginning what you seemed to see as important was behavior towards animals, taking the discussion away from its intended focus of our relationship with God and each other.You were the one who immediately considered animals just a "diet", related to the "stomach." NO. Let me repeat what I said before.... it's not about diet or anything physical like that. It's about being LOVING, merciful, kind, gentle and at PEACE with others, not just humans but all creation, the way God intended.
I have my way of responding and I'll continue to stay with it. Keep in mind, it also allows people to return to your original post in its entirety several times should they care to do this.In the future, please don't cut off 95% of my post and focus on one sentence if your reply is a big strawman and misrepresents my position.
Mankind didn't miss the mark. Mankind showed free will, as it was supposed to.Thank you. This also fits the idea of Original Sin, with 'sin' meaning to "miss the mark/target". Mankind missed the mark with that internalization of evil inclination that made life in the garden incompatible with his nature?
Th verse that is endlessly debated about Noah is that "Noah was righteous in his generation". It either mean he was just plain righteous, or as you said, he was better than the rest.Thanks for being reasonable, even though we have differing views. That is a rare quality around here.
Anyway, to answer what you said, I was talking about Genesis chapter 8, verse 21, which is the end of that chapter... so that's why I said it's just a few verses before chapter 9 scripture you mentioned.
So, according to the order of events, shortly before God gave mankind over to our selfish desires due to our hardened hearts, He said "I will never again curse the ground for man’s sake, although the imagination of man’s heart is evil from his youth"
Yes, Noah found favor with God, but you have to keep in mind that the rest of the world at that time was horribly evil and violent. So in comparison, Noah was not a bad person. But that doesn't mean Noah was perfect or always did the right thing. We know that because not long after that, Noah got drunk, so obviously he was not always doing the right thing.
As for the last thing you said about a thread on the topic of biblical vegetarianism, yes... that's a good idea. I fully admit I'm in a very tiny minority among Christians with my position... but there are 3 or 4 of us here on this site who are Christian vegans. I think it's always an interesting debate, when the topic does come up.
I understand your focus. If you wish to start with people being kind to animals, go with it. I am not arguing against it, merely continuing with my own focus with each person's relationship with God and other people. From the beginning what you seemed to see as important was behavior towards animals, taking the discussion away from its intended focus of our relationship with God and each other.
Perhaps take another look at your first response. I wasn't after a fight or even taking a poke at anyone. The discussion point was about the interest some people of Biblical times also had of returning to a time prior to the expulsion from the Garden of Eden. It wasn't about--for whatever good reasons--promoting a change of diet, which I am aware you do make a point of in other threads as well. Good for you, but your specific interest is not mine.
If it was about free will, why was the way back to the Garden of Eden blocked? One act of free will, with changing one's mind not allowed? If choosing knowledge meant leaving the garden, they why not go voluntarily and why guard it against returning? (Just curious about how this ties in, and how it relates to the part where God did tell them not to eat of the Tree of Knowledge. Was this solely an act of free will? Wasn't it also an act of disobedience?)Mankind didn't miss the mark. Mankind showed free will, as it was supposed to.
Yes, with no government/governor other than God...The reason I brought up animals was to challenge you on your own statement that you think it would be great if people returned to life in the pre-fall world, in the Garden of Eden.
The notion of missing the mark is an aspect of the translation of the Hebrew word "chet" meaning sin (but a particular type). The behavior in the garden was not of the type that would be called a chet so I'm not sure that missing the mark works here.Thank you. This also fits the idea of Original Sin, with 'sin' meaning to "miss the mark/target". Mankind missed the mark with that internalization of evil inclination that made life in the garden incompatible with his nature?
Thanks for the reply and citation. I see that verse as speaking about the kind of evil that SHOULD doom mankind but won't because if God's promise, so this is on a different level from an interest in meat but I can see the connection you make and appreciate your making it.Thanks for being reasonable, even though we have differing views. That is a rare quality around here.
Anyway, to answer what you said, I was talking about Genesis chapter 8, verse 21, which is the end of that chapter... so that's why I said it's just a few verses before chapter 9 scripture you mentioned.
So, according to the order of events, shortly before God gave mankind over to our selfish desires due to our hardened hearts, He said "I will never again curse the ground for man’s sake, although the imagination of man’s heart is evil from his youth"
Yes, Noah found favor with God, but you have to keep in mind that the rest of the world at that time was horribly evil and violent. So in comparison, Noah was not a bad person. But that doesn't mean Noah was perfect or always did the right thing. We know that because not long after that, Noah got drunk, so obviously he was not always doing the right thing.
As for the last thing you said about a thread on the topic of biblical vegetarianism, yes... that's a good idea. I fully admit I'm in a very tiny minority among Christians with my position... but there are 3 or 4 of us here on this site who are Christian vegans. I think it's always an interesting debate, when the topic does come up.
