Atheist denied citizenship unless she joins church

[Pogo]

She received BAD information in a letter (OK?) drafted by someone either untrained or unfamiliar with judicial precedent or the regs. This would come as no surprise to you if you had a realistic appraisal of typical customer relations with the govt.

I tried to remind you how useless typical GOVT HELP is... But because of YOUR RELIGION, (as a worshipper of the Huge Fed Govt) --- you not allowed to admit to that fact..

Horse shit. I've never posted anything remotely resembling that. You're a fucking liar, period.


--- which is exactly what I've been saying since I first came into this thread a hundred posts ago, dumbass.
QW quoted from the same page I quoted hours ago. Read much?



She damn well better. Agian, that's been my point here throughout. But for an asshat panting himself out of breath about incompetent bureaucracies, you're awfully confident that it's all going to turn around "tomorrow". Is that when the nurse brings your meds?

I'm OK with your inability to comprehend this -- and I won't bother your thread anymore.

Please just tell me.. WHO or WHAT do you think is trying to do EVIL to this woman? Who are YOU after here?

I'm here for the Constitution. You and your imaginary comic book red herrings and IRSes and Mohammed Attas can go sit on a tack for all I care. We the coherent can handle this.

So I see I was right all along and this turns out to be the usual govt incompetence..

Not a plot to initiate the Theocracy or a massive breach of the Constitution.

Thanks for playing..

No, you don't "see" shit.

Weirdo.

 

[jasonnfree]

Start a petition to change the oath of citizenship so that newly minted citizens do not have to affirm that they will defend and protect the Constitution.

One can do that without killing.

I for one would refuse to kill on behalf of government.

You were born here, which means that as a citizen you are subject to a draft. When someone becomes a citizen they have to take an oath of citizenship one of the provisions is that you would take up arms in service to the government.

If we did not have such an oath, we would have millions of "citizens" who have no interest in defending the Constitution. But, there is an exception for religious teachings.

That doesn't make sense in her case. Women aren't subject to the draft and neither are 65 year olds.

 

[jasonnfree]

Margaret Doughty, Atheist Seeking U.S. Citizenship, Told To Join Church Or Be Denied

Margaret Doughty, an atheist and permanent U.S. resident for more than 30 years, was told by immigration authorities this month that she has until Friday to officially join a church that forbids violence or her application for naturalized citizenship will be rejected.

Doughty received the ultimatum after stating on her application that she objected to the pledge to bear arms in defense of the nation due to her moral opposition to war. According to a letter to U.S. Citizenship and Immigration Services by the American Humanist Association on Doughty's behalf, officials responded by telling her that she needed to prove that her status as a conscientious objector was due to religious beliefs. They reportedly told her she'd need to document that she was "a member in good standing" of a nonviolent religious organization or be denied citizenship at her June 21 hearing. A note “on official church stationary [sic]" would suffice, they said.

Her letter is at the link.

Dudley, do you even bother to read this shit from HuffPO? It would seem not.

One of the citizenship requirements is to be willing to be in the armed forces. If you are a conscientious objector for the military, it has to be based upon a religious belief. The statute is at the link below and says, in part:

...no person "who by religious training and belief is conscientiously opposed to participation in war in any form" can be required to kill or train to kill in the military. CO provisions like this have been a part of American law since the time of the colonies.

Who is a Conscientious Objector?

She is correct in saying that at her age she would be unlikely to be drafted particularly since we don't have a draft. But being willing to serve is part of the process and the law says CO status has to be based on religious training.

That's the rule. If she doesn't like it she can check out and go back home.

Yep, we really need 65 year old women fighting for our "freedoms".

 

[Quantum Windbag]

Update on this horrible woman who has committed the unforgivable crime of being against war.

Margaret Doughty Approved For Citizenship As USCIS Backs Down In Flap Over Atheist Opposition To War

Margaret Doughty, an atheist and legal resident whose application for U.S. citizenship was nearly rejected this month over her non-religious opposition to war, will become a naturalized citizen next week, the blog Divided Under God first reported on Thursday.

According to Divided Under God, the U.S. Citizenship and Immigration Services decided to retract a demand that Doughty show proof "on official church stationery" that her stated conscientious objector status was a function of her being a "member in good standing" of a pacifist religious group. Here's the text of a letter she received from her congressional Rep. Blake Farenthold (R-Texas), who intervened in the matter:

“This Service hereby withdraws the request for evidence (RFE) issued on June 7, 2013. This Service accepts your detailed statement in satisfaction of the information requested by the RFE. Your application for naturalization has been approved.”

Damn, I was right, she really wasn't told what you said, and is not actually required to join a church.

 

[Pogo]

Update on this horrible woman who has committed the unforgivable crime of being against war.

Margaret Doughty Approved For Citizenship As USCIS Backs Down In Flap Over Atheist Opposition To War

Margaret Doughty, an atheist and legal resident whose application for U.S. citizenship was nearly rejected this month over her non-religious opposition to war, will become a naturalized citizen next week, the blog Divided Under God first reported on Thursday.

According to Divided Under God, the U.S. Citizenship and Immigration Services decided to retract a demand that Doughty show proof "on official church stationery" that her stated conscientious objector status was a function of her being a "member in good standing" of a pacifist religious group. Here's the text of a letter she received from her congressional Rep. Blake Farenthold (R-Texas), who intervened in the matter:

“This Service hereby withdraws the request for evidence (RFE) issued on June 7, 2013. This Service accepts your detailed statement in satisfaction of the information requested by the RFE. Your application for naturalization has been approved.”

Damn, I was right, she really wasn't told what you said, and is not actually required to join a church.

uhhh-- how do you figure that?
They retracted it. You can't retract something that wasn't there.

 

[JimBowie1958]

It IS an interesting Catch 22...to make the assumption that one must be religious in order to be non-violent and believe in peace.

Too many claim pacifism to get out of the military so they use church membership of an pacifist church to validate a history of being a pacifist.

 

[Pogo]

It IS an interesting Catch 22...to make the assumption that one must be religious in order to be non-violent and believe in peace.

Too many claim pacifism to get out of the military so they use church membership of an pacifist church to validate a history of being a pacifist.

The irony of Bodecea's post (as I read it) is that here's a requirement to join a religion in order to be a legitimate pacifist -- after religions have been used as the pretext for so many wars.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

Update on this horrible woman who has committed the unforgivable crime of being against war.

Margaret Doughty Approved For Citizenship As USCIS Backs Down In Flap Over Atheist Opposition To War

Damn, I was right, she really wasn't told what you said, and is not actually required to join a church.

uhhh-- how do you figure that?
They retracted it. You can't retract something that wasn't there.

They retracted something? You must be reading a different letter than I am.

“This Service hereby withdraws the request for evidence (RFE) issued on June 7, 2013. This Service accepts your detailed statement in satisfaction of the information requested by the RFE. Your application for naturalization has been approved.”

 

[JimBowie1958]

It IS an interesting Catch 22...to make the assumption that one must be religious in order to be non-violent and believe in peace.

Too many claim pacifism to get out of the military so they use church membership of an pacifist church to validate a history of being a pacifist.

The irony of Bodecea's post (as I read it) is that here's a requirement to join a religion in order to be a legitimate pacifist -- after religions have been used as the pretext for so many wars.

Just about EVERYTHING has been used as a pretext for wars, and the worst ones over the last 150 years were not started by religious conflict, but leftist ideology instead, and so too with the hundreds of millions slaughtered in the worlds killing fields.

 

[Pogo]

Damn, I was right, she really wasn't told what you said, and is not actually required to join a church.

uhhh-- how do you figure that?
They retracted it. You can't retract something that wasn't there.

They retracted something? You must be reading a different letter than I am.

“This Service hereby withdraws the request for evidence (RFE) issued on June 7, 2013. This Service accepts your detailed statement in satisfaction of the information requested by the RFE. Your application for naturalization has been approved.”

I'm reading both, the other earlier being:

“Please submit a letter on official church stationery, attesting to the fact that you are a member in good standing and the church’s official position on the bearing of arms.”

More at CNN:

 

[Pogo]

Too many claim pacifism to get out of the military so they use church membership of an pacifist church to validate a history of being a pacifist.

The irony of Bodecea's post (as I read it) is that here's a requirement to join a religion in order to be a legitimate pacifist -- after religions have been used as the pretext for so many wars.

Just about EVERYTHING has been used as a pretext for wars, and the worst ones over the last 150 years were not started by religious conflict, but leftist ideology instead, and so too with the hundreds of millions slaughtered in the worlds killing fields.

Oh pleeeeeeease..... maybe you wanna join Flatulentenn in his comic book fantasy quest. He's into incoherency too, you'll like each other.

 

[flacaltenn]

Update on this horrible woman who has committed the unforgivable crime of being against war.

Margaret Doughty Approved For Citizenship As USCIS Backs Down In Flap Over Atheist Opposition To War

Damn, I was right, she really wasn't told what you said, and is not actually required to join a church.

uhhh-- how do you figure that?
They retracted it. You can't retract something that wasn't there.

He WAS right.. So was I ---- When the IRS gives you Bad advice on the phone --- THEY ALWAYS retract it once you get audited... Dupe....

 

[Quantum Windbag]

uhhh-- how do you figure that?
They retracted it. You can't retract something that wasn't there.

They retracted something? You must be reading a different letter than I am.

I'm reading both, the other earlier being:

“Please submit a letter on official church stationery, attesting to the fact that you are a member in good standing and the church’s official position on the bearing of arms.”

More at CNN:

Whoever told her that was wrong, which is what I said, isn't it?

 

[Pogo]

They retracted something? You must be reading a different letter than I am.

I'm reading both, the other earlier being:

“Please submit a letter on official church stationery, attesting to the fact that you are a member in good standing and the church’s official position on the bearing of arms.”

More at CNN:

Whoever told her that was wrong, which is what I said, isn't it?

Yes it was, at first, and you were right, and so was I. How rare is that.

But then you were wrong that she was never told this. She was, and it was retracted, which is as it should be.

Another day, another world saved through the magic of internet message boards.

 

[Pogo]

Damn, I was right, she really wasn't told what you said, and is not actually required to join a church.

uhhh-- how do you figure that?
They retracted it. You can't retract something that wasn't there.

He WAS right.. So was I ---- When the IRS gives you Bad advice on the phone --- THEY ALWAYS retract it once you get audited... Dupe....

You are truly a world class moron. The IRS has nothing to do with immigration. Nor is there a "phone" involved here. Dumbass.

 

[JimBowie1958]

The irony of Bodecea's post (as I read it) is that here's a requirement to join a religion in order to be a legitimate pacifist -- after religions have been used as the pretext for so many wars.

Just about EVERYTHING has been used as a pretext for wars, and the worst ones over the last 150 years were not started by religious conflict, but leftist ideology instead, and so too with the hundreds of millions slaughtered in the worlds killing fields.

Oh pleeeeeeease..... maybe you wanna join Flatulentenn in his comic book fantasy quest. He's into incoherency too, you'll like each other.

Lol, say what you want but the worst wars of the history of mankind were started and led by socialists of various stripes, along with the largest civilian massacres and starvation.

The historical record really sux for you libs, don't it?

 

[JimBowie1958]

uhhh-- how do you figure that?
They retracted it. You can't retract something that wasn't there.

He WAS right.. So was I ---- When the IRS gives you Bad advice on the phone --- THEY ALWAYS retract it once you get audited... Dupe....

You are truly a world class moron. The IRS has nothing to do with immigration. Nor is there a "phone" involved here. Dumbass.

His point about the IRS is invalid because it has nothing to do with immigration?

roflmao

 

[Sunshine]

HUH???

What in the world would that have to do with anything? She's not refusing to go to war, you know.

How about she just "claims" the US Constitution.

As usual -- you don't understand your own thread.. She attempted to MODIFY her citizenship application by stipulating she be RECOGNIZED as a conscientious objector. That means roughly --- she will not serve.

Now -- she needs to prove it. This isn't about "denying citizenship". This is a challenge to back up her C.O. status assertion.. As soon as that is resolved, we can get back to reconsidering her MODIFIED application..

Can ATHEISTS be C.Objectors?? Seems like it. But then again the incompetence of the BIG BUREAUCRACY YOU WORSHIP, might have to actually spent 12 man-years reading regs and court decisions..

YOU LIKE Big Bloated Govt?? Then don't act so shocked and irate when this shit happens..

R U that dense?

No they can't when it comes to the oath. Atheists don't have any scripture or dogma to point to that commands them to not kill or not do anything for that matter. Personal convictions do not weigh much compared to being brain washed by a cult like the Christians or Mormans. Truth is under the right set of circumstances anyone will kill without giving it a moments thought. I don't care who she is or who a guy might be.. If she enters her home and discovers a rapist molesting her daughter or young son and she grabs a butcher knife in the kitchen upon hearing the screams of her child ...she will stab the rapist until he stops moving.

Whether a citizen will volunteer to kill on the order of a military superior who gets sent somewhere on the planet on the order of a politician is another matter. I'm sure that there are a lot more psychopathes that just like to kill and harm others in the military than those that join and discover they cannot kill because upon seeing the reality of the act they reject it not out of fear but out of an inner compass that cannot be ignored.

A lot of innocent men women and children get killed whenever our troops get sent anywhere "to defend our freedom".

I am so totally offended by that phrase. The last time our freedom was actually on the line was in WWII. Every war since then has been a war of choice and the only thing on the block was some companies agreement about an economic resource or a trumped up threat like terrorism which clearly takes excellent intel and Navy Seal teams and drones to eliminate the individuals involved. We did not need to destroy Iraq to kill Saddam. We did not need to engage in over ten years of war in Afgahnistan to get our pound of flesh from Al Quida.

The truth of the matter is that 9/11 would not have happened if our own agencies that are charged with our safety had not bungled and dropped the ball ...all the way to the president that didn't have the curiosity to follow up on a known threat that had a recent history of violent, deadly attacks on our military and civilian assets thruout the ME and Africa. Few Americans have the balls to look at the facts of 9/11 and admit we knew that some sand ******* were being all hopped up by a guy we knew very well because he worked for us when the Russians were run out of Afgahnistan. 9/11 happened because of the hubris of George Bush and the incompetance of the FBI the NSA and the CIA. 9/11 happened because a couple of flight instructors were asked to teach some Mid East guys with no commercial aviation experience or prospects of ever needing to know how a Boeing passenger jet liner is flown even if only in a simulator but the most important part of flight training save weather is how to land the goddamned airplane. And these individuals told the instructors they were not interested in landing training. Flight instructors are supposed to be smart. They are suppposed to reject bad judgement observed in any student pilot. I know, I am a liscenced pilot. It makes my eyes pop right out of my head and make my skull want to explode when I think of all the flight instructors I have known and the ones that trained the terrorists didn't march right down to the local FBI and FAA offices and scream bloody murder until someone in authority acted. A classic case of unregulated buisness run amuck ... We will train our own assassins for a few bucks because we don't like to discourage any business opportunity. We are fools.

Our own stpidity and hubris allowed 9/11 to happen. That is only responsible way to look at it.

LikeI said earlier. We don't need the dumb bitch in our country. We already have enough morons amongst us.

Yousaidamouthfull, sugah! (rhythm = shaveandahaircut, two bits)

 

[Sunshine]

Scumbags 1. US citizens 0.

 

[Book of Jeremiah]

If she is going to claim conscientious objector status she needs to prove that up.

She did, Katz. She is stating it up front - she doesn't believe in violence - she doesn't need to belong to a church to have a conscience. In fact, many true Christians have already left the organized church due to the corruption, greed for filthy lucre and false teachings going on. China has over 100 million non churched members who meet privately ( its called the underground church ) in fields, homes, anywhere away from big brother communist spies.

Home churches are the new thing in America. The trend is growing at the same pace as Home School is. So according to your report many of the real christians in America are not going to have any "proof" either.

So much for that one.

-Jeri