Atheist Seeking U.S. Citizenship Told She Must First Join Church Or Be Denied

[Noomi]

She is morally opposed to a few things, there is no reason why she should be made to join a church.

 

[TemplarKormac]

One would think that America would welcome "intelligent" citizens.

Arrogant and narcissistic perhaps, intelligent perhaps, but willing to make sure you don't get to practice your faith.

 

[TemplarKormac]

No Godless Commies allowed... ;-)

Wow! Organized religion at its best. You represent it well. It's no wonder church membership continues to fall for so many churches.

I'm reasonably sure that was a joke.

The reaction exposes the willingness of others to stereotype others of faith. How typical.

 

[dblack]

This is a byproduct of our irrational application of the First Amendment. It was never meant to grant religious people special privileges, but rather to protect them from persecution. And to keep the government out of the religion business.

The idea that some people shouldn't have to follow the same laws as the rest of us because it "goes against their religion" is nonsense and violates the concepts of rule of law and equal protection.

 

[Claudette]

More: Margaret Doughty, Atheist Seeking U.S. Citizenship, Told To Join Church Or Be Denied

As an Atheist, I find this unconscionable on several levels. I wonder what "nonviolent religious organization" would suffice? Would the violence in the Bible and Quran not be a factor? Holy shit...

Perhaps this will make you feel better:

Back in the 1950s and 1960s, to establish conscientious objector status one had to prove he was a member of a religious organization which was opposed to all wars. However, in the 1970s the SCOTUS removed this requirement and ruled that conscientious objector status could be based on a personal deeply held ethical system or moral principle which had nothing to do with a belief in a Supreme Being. It is clear that an atheist could seek conscientious objector based upon her personal beliefs. The actions of the immigration authorities in this were contrary to well established law. They should have known better. Here are a few links:

“Until the late 20th century, only members of certain religious groups known for their pacifist beliefs, including Quakers and Mennonites, could qualify for conscientious objector status. In 1971, a U.S. Supreme Court decision broadened the criteria to include anyone who "has deeply held beliefs that cause them to oppose participation in war in any form." This definition was carefully crafted to prevent claims of conscientious objector status to avoid service in a particular war, at that time the Vietnam War.”

Conscientious Objection Facts . NOW | PBS

“After the “Supreme Being” clause was deleted, a plurality in Welsh v. United States, 398 U.S. 333 (1970), construed the religion requirement as inclusive of moral, ethical, or religious grounds.”

Conscientious Objection :: First Amendment--Religion and Expression :: US Constitution :: US Codes and Statutes :: US Law :: Justia

“The postwar Selective Service Act, passed in 1948 and amended in 1951, required that conscientious objection be based on religious belief and training that included belief in a Supreme Being. In 1970 the Supreme Court removed the religious requirement and allowed objection based on a deeply held and coherent ethical system with no reference to a Supreme Being.”

conscientious objector | Infoplease.com

Doesn't change the fact that the law requires you to write an affidavit affirming this.

I can't help but notice they aren't actually quoting the language of what is required of her. They are just summarizing it in their own words. I'd like to know what they actually said was required of her.

I am a bit curious though. She said her spiritual/religious beliefs made her a CO. What spiritual/religious beliefs does atheism espouse other than there is no God? Im always told by atheists that their philosophy isn't a religion at all. It's just interesting to see one claiming it is.

Bingo. Thats it in a nutshell.

 

[daveman]

She is morally opposed to a few things, there is no reason why she should be made to join a church.

She's not. She's being less than honest about what she was told.

 

[The Professor]

There's never been a draft in my lifetime, but my mother took me to Ethical Culture meetings all throughout my childhood so I would qualify for CO status if a draft was instituted.

Not necessarily. However, if the Ethical Culture meetings you attended espoused an aversion to ALL warfare (not just a particular war or a war for a particular purpose) it would constitute evidence that you are sincere in your claim to being a conscientious objector. You may need more evidence, however. The law puts the burden of proof upon the one claiming conscientious objector status and such proof takes many forms. Rather then give a link or two, I would suggest you Google “proof of conscientious objector.”

 

[The Professor]

She is morally opposed to a few things, there is no reason why she should be made to join a church.

She's not. She's being less than honest about what she was told.

I hope you're right.

 

[Katzndogz]

She is morally opposed to a few things, there is no reason why she should be made to join a church.

There is no exception for individually held moral beliefs.

 

[DiamondDave]

She opened herself up to in it her statement... she brought it on herself

And this does indeed smell of a political ploy

 

[Vox]

if she objects the Constitution, she should not be a citizen of this country. Getting the citizenship is a privilege, it is not universally granted.

 

[Kondor3]

No Godless Commies allowed... ;-)

Wow! Organized religion at its best. You represent it well. It's no wonder church membership continues to fall for so many churches.

As one of our colleagues recently surmised... it was a joke...


[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C6cxNR9ML8k]Lighten Up Francis - YouTube[/ame]

 

[bendog]

I remember Carl Wilson (beach boy) actually got ordained when he went CO over vietnam. But the lady is correct. The Supreme Court found that moral objection to war doesn't have to based upon religion. In WWII many of the CO's worked in non combat jobs, like cooks and orderlies, while others worked in mental illness facilities. I never understood why Vietnam COs didn't have to do the same. Maybe too many of them. (-:

No JOKING. PEOPLE WHO DON'T TAKE EVERYTHIGN SERIOUSLY SERIOUSLY ANNOY ME.

 

[bodecea]

One can be an atheist, and still qualify, but they still have to prove it. The wording of the article and her quote are a little weird though.

They're both agenda-driven, both the article and her.

I see nothing wrong with proving the view points. And I am skeptical she is relaying their requirements the way they would. They are probably just asking her to verify her beliefs according to the law.

I agree. She's got an agenda, she's trying to make political hay of it.

Nevermind. I got confused...

Seems to me that those who will not let her become a citizen are the ones with the agenda.....they are making the rules, not her.

 

[Vox]

I see nothing wrong with proving the view points. And I am skeptical she is relaying their requirements the way they would. They are probably just asking her to verify her beliefs according to the law.

I agree. She's got an agenda, she's trying to make political hay of it.

Nevermind. I got confused...

Seems to me that those who will not let her become a citizen are the ones with the agenda.....they are making the rules, not her.

the rules are made long time ago. Obtaining a citizenship is a privilege, not a right. If she does not want to defend the country and Constitution ( on a paper) she must provide a legal reason for that

 

[theDoctorisIn]

I see nothing wrong with proving the view points. And I am skeptical she is relaying their requirements the way they would. They are probably just asking her to verify her beliefs according to the law.

I agree. She's got an agenda, she's trying to make political hay of it.

Nevermind. I got confused...

Seems to me that those who will not let her become a citizen are the ones with the agenda.....they are making the rules, not her.

The issue is how honestly she is telling her side of the story. The law doesn't back her story up.

She has to prove her pacifism, but she doesn't have to be in a church.

In fact, joining a church now wouldn't help her at all, since the point of the exception is a history of moral pacifism.

 

[daveman]

She is morally opposed to a few things, there is no reason why she should be made to join a church.

She's not. She's being less than honest about what she was told.

I hope you're right.

Given the hostility of this Admin towards organized religion, do you REALLY think a bureaucrat is going to tell somebody to join a church?

Not gonna happen.

 

[Vox]

She's not. She's being less than honest about what she was told.

I hope you're right.

Given the hostility of this Admin towards organized religion, do you REALLY think a bureaucrat is going to tell somebody to join a church?

Not gonna happen.

you do not know the proceedings in naturalization. If one does not want to sign the pledge to defend the country and Constitution, one has to provide a legitimate reason for his/her pacifism.

 

[daveman]

I see nothing wrong with proving the view points. And I am skeptical she is relaying their requirements the way they would. They are probably just asking her to verify her beliefs according to the law.

I agree. She's got an agenda, she's trying to make political hay of it.

Nevermind. I got confused...

Seems to me that those who will not let her become a citizen are the ones with the agenda.....they are making the rules, not her.

Are you saying they made up that rule to specifically exclude her?

Because, you know -- that would be stupid of you to say.

The rule's been in place a long time. And she has to abide by it.

Yes, rules apply to progressives, too. I know you think that's terribly unfail, but oh well.

 

[Kondor3]

Mebbe she should just convert to Illegal Alien status...

THAT would get her a free pass to everything and let her stay here forever.

Just another of the 12,000,000... ;-)