Athiest Playbook

[Meriweather]

I'm not sure I buy that. My x-wife was told by her Catholic priest, back in the 1960's, that her first child, who was born dead, could not be buried in hallowed ground, since it had not been baptised; and further, the child would spend eternity in purgatory, separated from my x-wife.

She never stepped foot in a Catholic church again.

Two possibilities: Either your wife misunderstood, or the priest didn't even understand as much about the fate of being born dead as the average Catholic school child of that day.

First, an unbaptized child does not spend eternity in purgatory. Scripture does not tell us the fate of an unbaptized child, so we are in limbo about that. Before the 1960s, this doctrine of "limbo" had taken on the idea that "limbo" was a place, and so the Church had to clarify that to people. Since nothing from scripture answers this question, there is no teaching on it. Therefore, unbaptized infants are entrusted to the loving kindness of God. If only the baptized could be buried in a 1960s Church cemetery, that might have ruled out the child being buried there--but I expect that practice stopped being in effect in the 1960s as well. Two infants (same fate) in my family are indeed buried in blessed ground.

I do understand your ex-wife's anger. Even if (and I am not saying she did) it was your ex-wife who misunderstood, it was the obligation of the priest to insure her understanding. If it was the priest who was ignorant, well, there is another passage in scripture that does warn shepherds there are consequences who do not shepherd correctly. Your ex-wife's child just might be in better circumstances than her priest, but who can say.

 

[ChrisL]

So, you don't believe in the dating methods that the scientists use? What are you arguing about? You think the earth is only as old as Christianity? Perhaps you should clarify the argument you are making against fossils here.

I don't have any way of knowing if the dating methods of scientist is right. The Christian's method of determining the age of the earth actually is verifiable.

I'm not saying either one is correct. I'm just saying that one is more valid than the other. Why do you believe the dating methods of scientist are accurate or honest?

What dating methods? Explain. Why do you believe the dating method of scientists (carbon dating, BTW) is not accurate? Why do you believe the dating method of Christians (??? what is it?) is accurate?

 

[presonorek]

What dating methods? Explain. Why do you believe the dating method of scientists (carbon dating, BTW) is not accurate? Why do you believe the dating method of Christians (??? what is it?) is accurate?

Either one can be accurate. I just don't have any way of knowing.

 

[ChrisL]

agnostic
[ag-nos-tik]

• Examples
• Word Origin

noun
1.
a person who holds that the existence of the ultimate cause, as God,and the essential nature of things are unknown and unknowable, or that human knowledge is limited to experience.
Synonyms: disbeliever, nonbeliever, unbeliever; doubter, skeptic,secularist, empiricist; heathen, heretic, infidel, pagan.
2.
a person who denies or doubts the possibility of ultimate knowledge insome area of study.
3.
a person who holds neither of two opposing positions on a topic:
Socrates was an agnostic on the subject of immortality.

Give me the writing of Socrates where he said so, then you will understand why I doubt in definitions in general. And furthermore: I read your other answer before. You started with a senseless counterquestion, continued with intentional ignorace and hurted the maxime "live and let live". Then you used an empty phrase for an agressive attack in the kind "You are wrong". Did you stomp with your foot this moment? And then you tried to flee in definitions. So: Calm down first and start to think on your own. Some ideological phrases help no one anything.

Let me say now something to this definition. A synonym for agnostic is here for example "unbeliever". But "a-gnostic" means "not to know" verbally. Who not knows has to believe. I believe in god (my religion) and I am an agnostic (my philosophy), because I don't know wether god exists or not. Since Christians are existing we say "We believe in god". This means normally: not to know but to trust in god.

Why should I do that?

Why should you do what?

You "doubt" definitions? Lol. Okay.

I am going to ask questions of the Christians and other religious people, even HARD questions (OMG). If you don't like that, too bad. I have "attacked" no one, fool.

Not?

Flee in definitions? Er, no, posting facts if not fleeing in definitions, and I am calm. You seem to be the one who is bothered by my questions. Oh well, sucks to be you I guess.

Fascinating.

Right, I am an agnostic. Anything else I can help you with?

Best greetings to your mother. Tell her I don't think it's her fault.

I apologize for calling you a fool,

?

is how you are behaving here.

I understand. You had to call me fool because of my foolish behavior - so I forced you to make wrong what you did not like to make wrong.

I didn't attack anyone.

Good to know. But can it be your self-perception is not the best? My perception of you is: You dont have a big idea what you are speaking about, but you like to tell others you are right and they are wrong. You seem to think if someone says you are right this would be important.

I am asking questions and stating some pretty well known facts, despite your denials.

You speak with your thoughts - not with me.

Yeah, I get it.

?

You don't like it when people even question your beliefs, and you feel that is an attack upon you. I suggest you don't participate in these types of discussions if you feel any questioning of your beliefs and/or customs is an attack.

You still speak with your thoughts and not with me. It's for me personally completly unimportant what you believe or not. I tried to speak with you only about some worse philosophical mistakes.

Well, I see you gave me . . . nothing to work with. I can barely make sense of your posts. I don't know if you are a non-American speaking person, but it's not easy. Of course I speak my thoughts. This is a discussion board. That is what we all do here. Discuss our thoughts on issues, like religion. Now, just because a person doesn't agree with your thoughts on religion does not mean they are attacking you. That is the first thing you should understand.

The point is, there are a lot of fantastical stories in the Bible, as there are in any other religion that has existed. For myself, I really don't see much of a difference between one that exists today and say something like Greek mythology. Both register about the same on my bullshit meter.

 

[ChrisL]

What dating methods? Explain. Why do you believe the dating method of scientists (carbon dating, BTW) is not accurate? Why do you believe the dating method of Christians (??? what is it?) is accurate?

Either one can be accurate. I just don't have any way of knowing.

What is the other one you are referring to? I didn't know that Christians had their own scientific dating method that they used. As far as I'm aware, they go by what their holy books tell them.

 

[aris2chat]

A persons belief of lack of should not matter inside the home or church.
It is the behavior outside that matters. Are they interfering with the rights of others? Are they forcing their faith? Are they threatening others? Are they demanding conversion?
When it crosses into someone elses personal space it is wrong. Asking for a cake or flowers in not imposing their faith on others. Refusing to serve people because of the faith or beliefs is wrong. Refusing to ring up bacon or alcohol if you work in a store that sells those items is wrong.
If you drive a bus or taxi and have a serious medical allergy of animals, post it on your vehicle or find another job. If you are doing it for religious reason it is wrong and you should find a different occupation
Practice your faith but don't expect other to practice your faith in public areas.

 

[Vandalshandle]

... I'm not sure I buy that. My x-wife was told by her Catholic priest, back in the 1960's, that her first child, who was born dead, could not be buried in hallowed ground, since it had not been baptised; and further, the child would spend eternity in purgatory, separated from my x-wife. She never stepped foot in a Catholic church again.

And where was the child buried instead if not on a graveyard?

I know this might be a shock to you, but not all graveyards are catholic cemeteries.

And, BTW, the same thing happened to a girl I used to date in high school. She killed herself, and had to be buried in a public cemetery, instead of the church cemetery.

 

[zaangalewa]

Give me the writing of Socrates where he said so, then you will understand why I doubt in definitions in general. And furthermore: I read your other answer before. You started with a senseless counterquestion, continued with intentional ignorace and hurted the maxime "live and let live". Then you used an empty phrase for an agressive attack in the kind "You are wrong". Did you stomp with your foot this moment? And then you tried to flee in definitions. So: Calm down first and start to think on your own. Some ideological phrases help no one anything.

Let me say now something to this definition. A synonym for agnostic is here for example "unbeliever". But "a-gnostic" means "not to know" verbally. Who not knows has to believe. I believe in god (my religion) and I am an agnostic (my philosophy), because I don't know wether god exists or not. Since Christians are existing we say "We believe in god". This means normally: not to know but to trust in god.

Why should I do that?

Why should you do what?

You "doubt" definitions? Lol. Okay.

I am going to ask questions of the Christians and other religious people, even HARD questions (OMG). If you don't like that, too bad. I have "attacked" no one, fool.

Not?

Flee in definitions? Er, no, posting facts if not fleeing in definitions, and I am calm. You seem to be the one who is bothered by my questions. Oh well, sucks to be you I guess.

Fascinating.

Right, I am an agnostic. Anything else I can help you with?

Best greetings to your mother. Tell her I don't think it's her fault.

I apologize for calling you a fool,

?

is how you are behaving here.

I understand. You had to call me fool because of my foolish behavior - so I forced you to make wrong what you did not like to make wrong.

I didn't attack anyone.

Good to know. But can it be your self-perception is not the best? My perception of you is: You dont have a big idea what you are speaking about, but you like to tell others you are right and they are wrong. You seem to think if someone says you are right this would be important.

I am asking questions and stating some pretty well known facts, despite your denials.

You speak with your thoughts - not with me.

Yeah, I get it.

?

You don't like it when people even question your beliefs, and you feel that is an attack upon you. I suggest you don't participate in these types of discussions if you feel any questioning of your beliefs and/or customs is an attack.

You still speak with your thoughts and not with me. It's for me personally completly unimportant what you believe or not. I tried to speak with you only about some worse philosophical mistakes.

Well, I see you gave me . . . nothing to work with. I can barely make sense of your posts. I don't know if you are a non-American speaking person, but it's not easy. Of course I speak my thoughts. This is a discussion board. That is what we all do here. Discuss our thoughts on issues, like religion. Now, just because a person doesn't agree with your thoughts on religion does not mean they are attacking you. That is the first thing you should understand.

The point is, there are a lot of fantastical stories in the Bible, as there are in any other religion that has existed. For myself, I really don't see much of a difference between one that exists today and say something like Greek mythology. Both register about the same on my bullshit meter.

Aha

 

[presonorek]

Why do you believe the dating method of Christians (??? what is it?) is accurate?

I don't believe it is accurate but their technique can be repeated a million times and will have the same result every time.

Our calendar starts when Jesus was born. The first chapter of Matthew gives the genealogy of Christ. The Old Testament is even more elaborate and gives the age of the parent when they bare each child. You can trace it back to Adam. Then you go back six days to the year that the earth was created.

I'm not sure how those scientist come up with their dates. I just have to take their word for it because it is in a science book. Shoot. If I don't believe them then people will say that I am an idiot.

 

[presonorek]

What is the other one you are referring to? I didn't know that Christians had their own scientific dating method that they used. As far as I'm aware, they go by what their holy books tell them.

What's the difference between believing a holy book and believing a science website?

 

[Vandalshandle]

"First, an unbaptized child does not spend eternity in purgatory. Scripture does not tell us the fate of an unbaptized child, so we are in limbo about that. Before the 1960s, this doctrine of "limbo" had taken on the idea that "limbo" was a place, and so the Church had to clarify that to people."

Meriweather. You are correct about one thing. My memory was wrong. The priest told her the child would spend eternity in "limbo", not "purgatory". I am not Catholic, so these distinctions are not familiar to me. You are also probably correct that the concept of "limbo" is probably passe'. However, though my memory is sometimes faulty, my wife's understanding was precise.

I find it disturbing that doctrines can change simply because the church did not get it right the first time. What I find MORE than disturbing is that, for all practical purposes, you have no appeal to a priest's decision in the Catholic Church. It is a top down organization. You can not fire your priest. In fact, one of her kids by her deceased first husband wanted to get married in another parish, and was told by that priest that he would not do the ceremony unless her own parish priest gave his OK.

 

[ChrisL]

Why do you believe the dating method of Christians (??? what is it?) is accurate?

I don't believe it is accurate but their technique can be repeated a million times and will have the same result every time.

Our calendar starts when Jesus was born. The first chapter of Matthew gives the genealogy of Christ. The Old Testament is even more elaborate and gives the age of the parent when they bare each child. You can trace it back to Adam. Then you go back six days to the year that the earth was created.

I'm not sure how those scientist come up with their dates. I just have to take their word for it because it is in a science book. Shoot. If I don't believe them then people will say that I am an idiot.

How old are you? Didn't you learn about this stuff in school? We did, and though I don't remember much about it and it was pretty much basic information, I learned about dinosaurs and how they were discovered and how scientists figure out how old they are. These same methods are used in forensic pathology.

Radiometric dating - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia

 

[ChrisL]

What is the other one you are referring to? I didn't know that Christians had their own scientific dating method that they used. As far as I'm aware, they go by what their holy books tell them.

What's the difference between believing a holy book and believing a science website?

Forget it. You are hopeless. Lol.

 

[zaangalewa]

... I'm not sure I buy that. My x-wife was told by her Catholic priest, back in the 1960's, that her first child, who was born dead, could not be buried in hallowed ground, since it had not been baptised; and further, the child would spend eternity in purgatory, separated from my x-wife. She never stepped foot in a Catholic church again.

And where was the child buried instead if not on a graveyard?

I know this might be a shock to you, but not all graveyards are catholic cemeteries.

And, BTW, the same thing happened to a girl I used to date in high school. She killed herself, and had to be buried in a public cemetery, instead of the church cemetery.

It seems to me you do not really know what had happened with her child. Why did she leave you?

 

[Vandalshandle]

... I'm not sure I buy that. My x-wife was told by her Catholic priest, back in the 1960's, that her first child, who was born dead, could not be buried in hallowed ground, since it had not been baptised; and further, the child would spend eternity in purgatory, separated from my x-wife. She never stepped foot in a Catholic church again.

And where was the child buried instead if not on a graveyard?

I know this might be a shock to you, but not all graveyards are catholic cemeteries.

And, BTW, the same thing happened to a girl I used to date in high school. She killed herself, and had to be buried in a public cemetery, instead of the church cemetery.

It seems to me you do not really know what had happened with her child. Why did she leave you?

Zaan, you are REALLY out of line, here. I suggest that you quit while you are breaking even.

 

[ChrisL]

... I'm not sure I buy that. My x-wife was told by her Catholic priest, back in the 1960's, that her first child, who was born dead, could not be buried in hallowed ground, since it had not been baptised; and further, the child would spend eternity in purgatory, separated from my x-wife. She never stepped foot in a Catholic church again.

And where was the child buried instead if not on a graveyard?

I know this might be a shock to you, but not all graveyards are catholic cemeteries.

And, BTW, the same thing happened to a girl I used to date in high school. She killed herself, and had to be buried in a public cemetery, instead of the church cemetery.

The Catholic church refused to baptize the baby of a couple I knew because they conceived said child before they were married. They went and had her baptized a protestant instead. Lol.

 

[ChrisL]

... I'm not sure I buy that. My x-wife was told by her Catholic priest, back in the 1960's, that her first child, who was born dead, could not be buried in hallowed ground, since it had not been baptised; and further, the child would spend eternity in purgatory, separated from my x-wife. She never stepped foot in a Catholic church again.

And where was the child buried instead if not on a graveyard?

I know this might be a shock to you, but not all graveyards are catholic cemeteries.

And, BTW, the same thing happened to a girl I used to date in high school. She killed herself, and had to be buried in a public cemetery, instead of the church cemetery.

It seems to me you do not really know what had happened with her child. Why did she leave you?

Zaan, you are REALLY out of line, here. I suggest that you quit while you are breaking even.

The religious people (or a lot of them) get angry if you question their beliefs. I mean, back in the middle ages, that was a death penalty.

 

[presonorek]

How old are you? Didn't you learn about this stuff in school? We did, and though I don't remember much about it and it was pretty much basic information, I learned about dinosaurs and how they were discovered and how scientists figure out how old they are. These same methods are used in forensic pathology.

Radiometric dating - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia

Am I just supposed to believe my teachers because they are teachers?

Am I just supposed to believe the text books just because they look authentic and are written in an authoritative fashion?

Am I just supposed to click on that website and believe everything it says?

If so, I can believe everything my pastors and sunday school teachers told me. I am also supposed to believe the Bible because it has a black cover with gold letters and it is also written with an authoritative tone.

There are thousands of Christian websites on the internet. I guess I am obligated to believe them too.

I am a skeptic. I don't know anything unless I can see it for myself. I believe some things that are logical but I don't take everything that I am spoon fed. If I did then I wouldn't be an atheist anymore. You are asking me to adopt your belief in science because a book says so. With the same breathe you tell me to reject the teachings of Christianity because a book says so. Make up your mind.

Should I believe BS or ignore BS? Which one is it?

 

[Vandalshandle]

I'm not sure I buy that. My x-wife was told by her Catholic priest, back in the 1960's, that her first child, who was born dead, could not be buried in hallowed ground, since it had not been baptised; and further, the child would spend eternity in purgatory, separated from my x-wife.

She never stepped foot in a Catholic church again.

Two possibilities: Either your wife misunderstood, or the priest didn't even understand as much about the fate of being born dead as the average Catholic school child of that day.

First, an unbaptized child does not spend eternity in purgatory. Scripture does not tell us the fate of an unbaptized child, so we are in limbo about that. Before the 1960s, this doctrine of "limbo" had taken on the idea that "limbo" was a place, and so the Church had to clarify that to people. Since nothing from scripture answers this question, there is no teaching on it. Therefore, unbaptized infants are entrusted to the loving kindness of God. If only the baptized could be buried in a 1960s Church cemetery, that might have ruled out the child being buried there--but I expect that practice stopped being in effect in the 1960s as well. Two infants (same fate) in my family are indeed buried in blessed ground.

I do understand your ex-wife's anger. Even if (and I am not saying she did) it was your ex-wife who misunderstood, it was the obligation of the priest to insure her understanding. If it was the priest who was ignorant, well, there is another passage in scripture that does warn shepherds there are consequences who do not shepherd correctly. Your ex-wife's child just might be in better circumstances than her priest, but who can say.

While I do not share your belief's, I appreciate your respectful tone and demeanor. I do wish, however, that more christians behaved the same way you do..

 

[ChrisL]

How old are you? Didn't you learn about this stuff in school? We did, and though I don't remember much about it and it was pretty much basic information, I learned about dinosaurs and how they were discovered and how scientists figure out how old they are. These same methods are used in forensic pathology.

Radiometric dating - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia

Am I just supposed to believe my teachers because they are teachers?

Am I just supposed to believe the text books just because they look authentic and are written in an authoritative fashion?

Am I just supposed to click on that website and believe everything it says?

If so, I can believe everything my pastors and sunday school teachers told me. I am also supposed to believe the Bible because it has a black cover with gold letters and it is also written with an authoritative tone.

There are thousands of Christian websites on the internet. I guess I am obligated to believe them too.

I am a skeptic. I don't know anything unless I can see it for myself. I believe some things that are logical but I don't take everything that I am spoon fed. If I did then I wouldn't be an atheist anymore. You are asking me to adopt your belief in science because a book says so. With the same breathe you tell me to reject the teachings of Christianity because a book says so. Make up your mind.

Should I believe BS or ignore BS? Which one is it?

Lol. No, you should believe the religious people and the bible.