Attacks on Civilians

[sealadaigh]

Who underwrites this "international law" you refer to? And let us not forget that Israel's land existed since antiquity & there were no Muslims at all, let alone Muslim Palestinians until after the 7th century AD. Do these Palestinians have titles or deeds to what they claim is "their land"? Or are indeed just squatters on Israel's land, many who were driven out of their indigenous Arab countries by their own Arab brothers?

you are just arbitrarily picking a place in time and saying this is our land.

you are also saying that all peoples have to adhere to the western idea of land ownership.

i have every doubt that you would be willing to apply such concepts to other peoples.

given your concepts, native americans could kick the jews out of america if they chose, or any other group or all for that matter. i don't know. i suppose o could go back to the lands of my celtic ancestors which pretty much stretched across southern europe from ireland to istanbul...

do you really want to turn society's clock back 2000 years.

 

[SherriMunnerlyn]

Pbel, it is a moot point because there is no such thing as international law.

They first have to have an international military, global gov, court, judicial branch to enforce international law and we are not quite there yet. The UN is pushing hard but not quite yet.

The point may be moot for the occupying Israelis, but is not to most of the known world...Yes, Israel has the Military Power in the ME equation, but I suspect resistance will continue until they exhaust the occupier...It has worked for them thus far, unless a real peace is at least tried...maybe a peace dividend for the area would produce recognition and acceptance.

the unfortunate aspect about this whole things is that the palestinians are fighting a very righteous war but are using very stupid tactics. if they had targeted only the military, economic, and political aspects of israeli society they would have either won long ago or at least be well on their way.

what we have is the palestinians with a mideastern mindset waging battle with israelis with a western/european mindset, the palestinians need too reaalise that this will be won on the streets and colege campuses in america and killing non-combatants isn't going to help them at all. zionists use that against them very effectively.

fortunately, they are beginning to figure that out.

The reality is killing of civilians by Palestinians is substantially smaller in numbers than Israel killing of civilians. ALL one has to do is go to Btselem fatality tables and see this. HERE is something I discovered, Israel has killed over 500 Palestinian children in the past 5 years, Hamas has killed 1 Israeli child in that very same time frame.

 

[pbel]

What exactly has worked for them ??

Resistance by the Arabs to the Crusaders, The Turks, the Brits over hundreds of years...Israel is the present occupier. Resistance, by vast superior numbers, and keeping your enemy into spending vast amounts of money to maintain an occupation works. Vietnam, Iraq, Afghanistan and hundreds of other occupations fail.

Ask Russia and the USA. All military occupiers eventually succeed.

What exactly has worked for the Palestinians since they waged war against the Jewish State 65 years ago ? What did they gain ????
The pro-Palestinians on this board always try to paint this picture that the Palestinians are 'winning' , and that is a load of CRAP !
Through their constant violence and pleasure for dead Israelis , the Palestinians have gotten themselves nowhere and WILL get themselves nowhere

Like MJB says, when you're already in a hole, keep digging. It's called Palestinian Mentality

It's pretty clear that they gained recognition as a non-member State at the UN to the pre-67 borders...

Sanctions for non-complience are being discussed today, Israel is not liked by the vast majority of the world's nations save AIPAC ruled America...that too will change.

 

[toastman]

Resistance by the Arabs to the Crusaders, The Turks, the Brits over hundreds of years...Israel is the present occupier. Resistance, by vast superior numbers, and keeping your enemy into spending vast amounts of money to maintain an occupation works. Vietnam, Iraq, Afghanistan and hundreds of other occupations fail.

Ask Russia and the USA. All military occupiers eventually succeed.

What exactly has worked for the Palestinians since they waged war against the Jewish State 65 years ago ? What did they gain ????
The pro-Palestinians on this board always try to paint this picture that the Palestinians are 'winning' , and that is a load of CRAP !
Through their constant violence and pleasure for dead Israelis , the Palestinians have gotten themselves nowhere and WILL get themselves nowhere

Like MJB says, when you're already in a hole, keep digging. It's called Palestinian Mentality

It's pretty clear that they gained recognition as a non-member State at the UN to the pre-67 borders...

Sanctions for non-complience are being didcussed today, Israel is not liked by the vast majority of the world's nations save AIPAC ruled America...that too will change.

That's a whole lot to accomplish in 65 years
Only God knows what could have been had the Palestinians and Arab states chosen a non-violent means of achieving their goal to have a legitimate state.

 

[pbel]

What exactly has worked for the Palestinians since they waged war against the Jewish State 65 years ago ? What did they gain ????
The pro-Palestinians on this board always try to paint this picture that the Palestinians are 'winning' , and that is a load of CRAP !
Through their constant violence and pleasure for dead Israelis , the Palestinians have gotten themselves nowhere and WILL get themselves nowhere

Like MJB says, when you're already in a hole, keep digging. It's called Palestinian Mentality

It's pretty clear that they gained recognition as a non-member State at the UN to the pre-67 borders...

Sanctions for non-complience are being didcussed today, Israel is not liked by the vast majority of the world's nations save AIPAC ruled America...that too will change.

That's a whole lot to accomplish in 65 years
Only God knows what could have been had the Palestinians and Arab states chosen a non-violent means of achieving their goal to have a legitimate state.

I hope they learned the power of peaceful resisitance in today's world!

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

Convention (IV) relative to the Protection of Civilian Persons in Time of War. Geneva, 12 August 1949.

Even when the definition of protected persons is set out in this way, it may seem rather complicated. Nevertheless, disregarding points of detail, it will be seen that there are two main classes of protected person:... (2) ' the whole population ' of occupied territories (excluding nationals of the Occupying Power).

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Note: Don't ask me why the link is fucked. That is not what I posted.

It works though.

(2) ' the whole population ' of occupied territories (excluding nationals of the Occupying Power).

That's awesome. Israel isn't occupying any Palestinian land, so all Israeli civilians are protected. Glad you agree.

Wrong.

ALL civilians are protected.

I agree. Israeli civilians can't be targeted. They're protected. Despite Tinny's claim.

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

(2) ' the whole population ' of occupied territories (excluding nationals of the Occupying Power).

That's awesome. Israel isn't occupying any Palestinian land, so all Israeli civilians are protected. Glad you agree.

Wrong.

ALL civilians are protected.

Link? My question is about illegal settlers inside the OPT. I used to think all civilians were protected, until I realized the rules regarding protected persons in Occupations were not the same

There is no occupied Palestinian territory.

 

[pbel]

Wrong.

ALL civilians are protected.

Link? My question is about illegal settlers inside the OPT. I used to think all civilians were protected, until I realized the rules regarding protected persons in Occupations were not the same

There is no occupied Palestinian territory.

there is no Toddsterpatriot.

 

[Hossfly]

The point may be moot for the occupying Israelis, but is not to most of the known world...Yes, Israel has the Military Power in the ME equation, but I suspect resistance will continue until they exhaust the occupier...It has worked for them thus far, unless a real peace is at least tried...maybe a peace dividend for the area would produce recognition and acceptance.

the unfortunate aspect about this whole things is that the palestinians are fighting a very righteous war but are using very stupid tactics. if they had targeted only the military, economic, and political aspects of israeli society they would have either won long ago or at least be well on their way.

what we have is the palestinians with a mideastern mindset waging battle with israelis with a western/european mindset, the palestinians need too reaalise that this will be won on the streets and colege campuses in america and killing non-combatants isn't going to help them at all. zionists use that against them very effectively.

fortunately, they are beginning to figure that out.

The reality is killing of civilians by Palestinians is substantially smaller in numbers than Israel killing of civilians. ALL one has to do is go to Btselem fatality tables and see this. HERE is something I discovered, Israel has killed over 500 Palestinian children in the past 5 years, Hamas has killed 1 Israeli child in that very same time frame.

So, Frau Sherri, have you come up with some Muslim organization that can tell us how many children have been killed by Muslims, or don't you or your friends care about these children? You keep going on and on about children killed by Israelis like some broken record (of course the death of any child is heartbreaking), but more children are being killed in this world by your Muslim friends. How come you don't spend any time on even one other forum talking about the children which are killed in the Muslim world -- children who are Christians, Buddhists, Hindus and even Muslim children of different sects? I wonder, since Frau Sherri seems to be obsessed with numbers, can she possibly tell us how many Buddhist children have been killed in Thailand by Muslims versus the number of Muslim children killed by Buddhists there? Maybe she can also supply us with the figures of the number of Shiite and Ahmadi Muslim children killed by Sunnis in Pakistan and vice versa.

 

[toastman]

the unfortunate aspect about this whole things is that the palestinians are fighting a very righteous war but are using very stupid tactics. if they had targeted only the military, economic, and political aspects of israeli society they would have either won long ago or at least be well on their way.

what we have is the palestinians with a mideastern mindset waging battle with israelis with a western/european mindset, the palestinians need too reaalise that this will be won on the streets and colege campuses in america and killing non-combatants isn't going to help them at all. zionists use that against them very effectively.

fortunately, they are beginning to figure that out.

The reality is killing of civilians by Palestinians is substantially smaller in numbers than Israel killing of civilians. ALL one has to do is go to Btselem fatality tables and see this. HERE is something I discovered, Israel has killed over 500 Palestinian children in the past 5 years, Hamas has killed 1 Israeli child in that very same time frame.

So, Frau Sherri, have you come up with some Muslim organization that can tell us how many children have been killed by Muslims, or don't you or your friends care about these children? You keep going on and on about children killed by Israelis like some broken record (of course the death of any child is heartbreaking), but more children are being killed in this world by your Muslim friends. How come you don't spend any time on even one other forum talking about the children which are killed in the Muslim world -- children who are Christians, Buddhists, Hindus and even Muslim children of different sects? I wonder, since Frau Sherri seems to be obsessed with numbers, can she possibly tell us how many Buddhist children have been killed in Thailand by Muslims versus the number of Muslim children killed by Buddhists there? Maybe she can also supply us with the figures of the number of Shiite and Ahmadi Muslim children killed by Sunnis in Pakistan and vice versa.

You forgot to mention that the Muslim children killed by Muslim extremists are DELIBERATELY targeted

 

[MJB12741]

I find your comment a prime example of Palestinian mentality. Consider the facts:

The Palestinians attack & kill Israeli's.

Israel retaliates.

And you complain about how many more Palestinians wind up dead than Israeli's.

The point may be moot for the occupying Israelis, but is not to most of the known world...Yes, Israel has the Military Power in the ME equation, but I suspect resistance will continue until they exhaust the occupier...It has worked for them thus far, unless a real peace is at least tried...maybe a peace dividend for the area would produce recognition and acceptance.

the unfortunate aspect about this whole things is that the palestinians are fighting a very righteous war but are using very stupid tactics. if they had targeted only the military, economic, and political aspects of israeli society they would have either won long ago or at least be well on their way.

what we have is the palestinians with a mideastern mindset waging battle with israelis with a western/european mindset, the palestinians need too reaalise that this will be won on the streets and colege campuses in america and killing non-combatants isn't going to help them at all. zionists use that against them very effectively.

fortunately, they are beginning to figure that out.

The reality is killing of civilians by Palestinians is substantially smaller in numbers than Israel killing of civilians. ALL one has to do is go to Btselem fatality tables and see this. HERE is something I discovered, Israel has killed over 500 Palestinian children in the past 5 years, Hamas has killed 1 Israeli child in that very same time frame.

 

[SherriMunnerlyn]

I find your comment a prime example of Palestinian mentality. Consider the facts:

The Palestinians attack & kill Israeli's.

Israel retaliates.

And you complain about how many more Palestinians wind up dead than Israeli's.

the unfortunate aspect about this whole things is that the palestinians are fighting a very righteous war but are using very stupid tactics. if they had targeted only the military, economic, and political aspects of israeli society they would have either won long ago or at least be well on their way.

what we have is the palestinians with a mideastern mindset waging battle with israelis with a western/european mindset, the palestinians need too reaalise that this will be won on the streets and colege campuses in america and killing non-combatants isn't going to help them at all. zionists use that against them very effectively.

fortunately, they are beginning to figure that out.

The reality is killing of civilians by Palestinians is substantially smaller in numbers than Israel killing of civilians. ALL one has to do is go to Btselem fatality tables and see this. HERE is something I discovered, Israel has killed over 500 Palestinian children in the past 5 years, Hamas has killed 1 Israeli child in that very same time frame.

I find your comments a denial of reality. Human rights groups find Israel unlawfully targets civilians and civilian objects on a regular basis. Such acts are war crimes. Attacking houses and schools and churches and mosques kills civilians and killing around 500 children like Israel did in the last 5 years is much worse than killing the 1 child Hamas killed. The bodies of dead children speak for themselves here.

 

[SherriMunnerlyn]

Here is the link to Btselem that names the 1 child killed by Palestinians in Israel in the past 5 years. B'Tselem - Statistics - Fatalities. AND here is Palestinian children Israel killed in the OPT in the past 5 years. 2012 October: 0 September: 0 August: 0July: 0 June: 3 May: 0 April: 1 March: 2 February: 0 January: 0 Total: 6. 2011 December: 1November: 0October: 0September: 0August: 5July: 0June: 0May: 1April: 2March: 4February: 0January: 0Total: 13. 2010 December: 1 November: 0 October: 0 September: 2 August: 0 July: 0 June: 1 May: 0 April: 0 March: 4 February: 0 January: 1Total: 9. 2009 December: 0 November: 1 October: 0 September: 1 August: 2 July: 1 June: 0 May: 0 April: 1March: 2 February: 2 January: 304 Total: 314 2008 December: 42 November: 0October: 1September: 2August: 0 July: 2 June: 4 May: 8 April: 22. http://old.btselem.org/statistics/english/Casualties_Data.asp? Category=13&region=TER Data is not reported yet by Btselem past October of 2012. Since 2000, 129 Israeli children were killed by Palestinians and 1519 Palestinian children were killed by Israelis. This is reported by rememberthesechildren. http://www.rememberthesechildren.org/remember2013.html

 

[Saigon]

Only God knows what could have been had the Palestinians and Arab states chosen a non-violent means of achieving their goal to have a legitimate state.

Palestinian resistance within Israel was non-violent for a very long time - certainly from 1973 until the First Intifidah, which itself promoted the use of non-lethal force, such as stone throwing and not bombs or shooting.

The problem is that political resistance seemed to be interpreted by Israel as a sign of resignation and exploited.

I do not support the use of terror or violence against civilians in any conflict, but I do think that the First Intifadah succeeded in at least drawing global attention back to a conflict that had disappeared from our TV screens for a decade at that point.

 

[Saigon]

There is no occupied Palestinian territory.

Jesus wept....as the OP has already pointed out, even Israel refers to the OT as OT.

One thing everyone can agree on is that Gaza WAS occupied, and that the West Bank still is.

 

[SherriMunnerlyn]

There is no occupied Palestinian territory.

Jesus wept....as the OP has already pointed out, even Israel refers to the OT as OT.

One thing everyone can agree on is that Gaza WAS occupied, and that the West Bank still is.

Gaza is still occupied, too. Child deaths since 2000, 129 Israeli snd 1519 Palestinian.

 

[SherriMunnerlyn]

Only God knows what could have been had the Palestinians and Arab states chosen a non-violent means of achieving their goal to have a legitimate state.

Palestinian resistance within Israel was non-violent for a very long time - certainly from 1973 until the First Intifidah, which itself promoted the use of non-lethal force, such as stone throwing and not bombs or shooting.

The problem is that political resistance seemed to be interpreted by Israel as a sign of resignation and exploited.

I do not support the use of terror or violence against civilians in any conflict, but I do think that the First Intifadah succeeded in at least drawing global attention back to a conflict that had disappeared from our TV screens for a decade at that point.

The last suicide bombing was 7 years ago, but if you read this board you would think it was yesterday. AND of course, the supporters of Israels killings of Palestinians do not mention those over 1500 Palestinian children killed and over 8000 Palestinians killed, the majority of whom were civilians.

 

[SherriMunnerlyn]

I do not support the use of terror and violence against civilians in conflicts either. I acknowledge both Israel and Palestinians engage in it.

 

[SherriMunnerlyn]

What makes me sick is this double standard that says It is OK for Israel to target civilians, but terrorism for Palestinians to do it. HYPOCRISY defines that!

 

[editec]

attacks by palestinians on israeli civilians have taken various forms over the years, chiefly: Throwing stones at vehicles and people; firearm attacks; detonating bombs in populated areas and on buses; firing rockets at settlements in the gaza strip; and – since the evacuation of the settlements in the gaza strip as part of the israeli withdrawal – firing rockets at israeli communities near gaza. These violent attacks have killed hundreds of israeli civilians and injured thousands in israel and the occupied territories.

attacks aimed at civilians undermine all rules of morality and law. specifically, the intentional killing of civilians is considered a "grave breach" of international humanitarian law and a war crime. Whatever the circumstances, such acts are unjustifiable.

Palestinian organizations raise several arguments to justify attacks on israeli civilians. the main argument is that "all means are legitimate in fighting for independence against a foreign occupation. "this argument is completely baseless , and contradicts the fundamental principle of international humanitarian law . According to this principle, civilians are to be protected from the consequences of warfare , and any attack must discriminate between civilians and military targets . This principle is part of international customary law; as such, it applies to every state, organization, and person, even those who are not party to any relevant convention.

Palestinian spokespersons distinguish between attacks inside israel and attacks directed at settlers in the occupied territories. They argue that, because the settlements are illegal and many settlers belong to israel's security forces, settlers are not entitled to the protections granted to civilians by international law.

This argument is readily refuted. the illegality of the settlements has no effect at all on the status of their civilian residents. the settlers constitute a distinctly civilian population, which is entitled to all the protections granted civilians by international law. the israeli security forces' use of land in the settlements or the membership of some settlers in the israeli security forces does not affect the status of the other residents living among them, and certainly does not make them proper targets of attack.

i'm going to post the link for the source later in this thread- i think it would be interesting to discuss the content of this on it's own, without a source to influence discussion.

The op says some interesting things about civilians and targeting them - regardless of where they are living, and whether there are military members among them or some of the civilians are military members.

Lets discuss

governments target civilians all the time.