Ben Gurion: "We are the aggressors"

[Saigon]

We do not often hear it on this board, but I have very often been impressed by the honesty and integrity shown by Israelis about the conflict.

The most impressive of these must be Israel's first president - David Ben Gurion.

Here are some quotes from this amazing man:

A people which fights against the usurpation of its land will not tire so easily... it is easier for them to continue the war and not get tired than it is for us... The Palestinian Arabs are not alone. The Syrians are coming to help. From our point of view, they are strangers; in the point of law they are foreigners; but to the Arabs, they are not foreigners at all ... The centre of the war is in Palestine, but its dimensions are much wider. When we say that the Arabs are the aggressors and we defend ourselves — this is only half the truth. As regards our security and life we defend ourselves and our moral and physical position is not bad. We can face the gangs... and were we allowed to mobilize all our forces we would have no doubts about the outcome... But the fighting is only one aspect of the conflict which is in its essence a political one. And politically we are the aggressors and they defend themselves.

Under no circumstances must we touch land belonging to fellahs or worked by them. Only if a fellah leaves his place of settlement, should we offer to buy his land, at an appropriate price.

We do not wish, we do not need to expel the Arabs and take their place. All our aspirations are built upon the assumption — proven throughout all our activity in the Land — that there is enough room in the country for ourselves and the Arabs.

Terrorism benefits the Arabs, it may lay waste the Yishuv and shake Zionism. But to follow in the Arabs' footsteps and ape their deeds is to be blind to the gulf between us. Our aims and theirs run counter: methods calculated to further theirs, are ruinous to us.

Even amidst the violent attacks launched against us for months past, we call upon the sons of the Arab people dwelling in Israel to keep the peace and to play their part in building the State on the basis of full and equal citizenship and due representation in all its institutions, provisional and permanent.

David Ben-Gurion - Wikiquote

If there were more leaders as honest as Ben Gurion on both sides, there would have been peace years ago.

 

[P F Tinmore]

We do not often hear it on this board, but I have very often been impressed by the honesty and integrity shown by Israelis about the conflict.

The most impressive of these must be Israel's first president - David Ben Gurion.

Here are some quotes from this amazing man:

A people which fights against the usurpation of its land will not tire so easily... it is easier for them to continue the war and not get tired than it is for us... The Palestinian Arabs are not alone. The Syrians are coming to help. From our point of view, they are strangers; in the point of law they are foreigners; but to the Arabs, they are not foreigners at all ... The centre of the war is in Palestine, but its dimensions are much wider. When we say that the Arabs are the aggressors and we defend ourselves — this is only half the truth. As regards our security and life we defend ourselves and our moral and physical position is not bad. We can face the gangs... and were we allowed to mobilize all our forces we would have no doubts about the outcome... But the fighting is only one aspect of the conflict which is in its essence a political one. And politically we are the aggressors and they defend themselves.

Under no circumstances must we touch land belonging to fellahs or worked by them. Only if a fellah leaves his place of settlement, should we offer to buy his land, at an appropriate price.

We do not wish, we do not need to expel the Arabs and take their place. All our aspirations are built upon the assumption — proven throughout all our activity in the Land — that there is enough room in the country for ourselves and the Arabs.

Terrorism benefits the Arabs, it may lay waste the Yishuv and shake Zionism. But to follow in the Arabs' footsteps and ape their deeds is to be blind to the gulf between us. Our aims and theirs run counter: methods calculated to further theirs, are ruinous to us.

Even amidst the violent attacks launched against us for months past, we call upon the sons of the Arab people dwelling in Israel to keep the peace and to play their part in building the State on the basis of full and equal citizenship and due representation in all its institutions, provisional and permanent.

David Ben-Gurion - Wikiquote

If there were more leaders as honest as Ben Gurion on both sides, there would have been peace years ago.

we are the aggressors and they defend themselves.

Indeed.

 

[Kondor3]

"...If there were more leaders as honest as Ben Gurion on both sides, there would have been peace years ago."

Ol' Dave was honest, alright, but you'll notice that he did not surrender Israel on his watch, regardless, nor could he possibly have foreseen the complete and utter intransigence of his Arab neighbors nor decades of subsequent warfare nor Intifada I or II or endless rounds of suicide bombings and rocket attacks upon Israeli population centers at the time of that writing.

Transported 70 years into the future (present day), ol' Ben Gurion would probably shake his head in sadness, close the door, have a good cry for his lost vision of a shining city on a hill, then stiffen his spine and his demeanor, walk back into the room, and, sadly concede that his successors did the best they could under the circumstances in dealing with wicked, false-dealing, half-suicidal, foolish and increasingly aggressive and hostile and intransigent adversaries.

Ben Gurion was manifesting Reasonableness - an entirely alien and unfamiliar concept to the shadow governments of Palestine over the past 65 years, and the old boy was sensible enough to know that Reasonableness is a two-way street when all is said and done.

In the final analysis, ol' Dave's loyalties lie with Eretz Yisrael, not Palestine.

But you're right about one thing.

Had Israeli politicians continued in the spirit of these particular Ben Gurion musings, we would, indeed, have had peace, long ago.

At the cost of the State of Israel, and a couple of million more dead Jews, floating face-down in the Mediterranean.

 

[Lipush]

 

[Saigon]

Konrad -

Those are excellent comments, I couldn't agree more.

The ineptness of Palestinian leaders often make it very difficult to have any sympathy with the Palstinian people; but then it is not always the people's fault that leaders like Arafat are in power. I imagine Ben Gurion would despair of many of the people he may have had to negotiate with had he been in power 50 years later.

 

[georgephillip]

We do not often hear it on this board, but I have very often been impressed by the honesty and integrity shown by Israelis about the conflict.

The most impressive of these must be Israel's first president - David Ben Gurion.

Here are some quotes from this amazing man:

A people which fights against the usurpation of its land will not tire so easily... it is easier for them to continue the war and not get tired than it is for us... The Palestinian Arabs are not alone. The Syrians are coming to help. From our point of view, they are strangers; in the point of law they are foreigners; but to the Arabs, they are not foreigners at all ... The centre of the war is in Palestine, but its dimensions are much wider. When we say that the Arabs are the aggressors and we defend ourselves — this is only half the truth. As regards our security and life we defend ourselves and our moral and physical position is not bad. We can face the gangs... and were we allowed to mobilize all our forces we would have no doubts about the outcome... But the fighting is only one aspect of the conflict which is in its essence a political one. And politically we are the aggressors and they defend themselves.

Under no circumstances must we touch land belonging to fellahs or worked by them. Only if a fellah leaves his place of settlement, should we offer to buy his land, at an appropriate price.

We do not wish, we do not need to expel the Arabs and take their place. All our aspirations are built upon the assumption — proven throughout all our activity in the Land — that there is enough room in the country for ourselves and the Arabs.

Terrorism benefits the Arabs, it may lay waste the Yishuv and shake Zionism. But to follow in the Arabs' footsteps and ape their deeds is to be blind to the gulf between us. Our aims and theirs run counter: methods calculated to further theirs, are ruinous to us.

Even amidst the violent attacks launched against us for months past, we call upon the sons of the Arab people dwelling in Israel to keep the peace and to play their part in building the State on the basis of full and equal citizenship and due representation in all its institutions, provisional and permanent.

David Ben-Gurion - Wikiquote

If there were more leaders as honest as Ben Gurion on both sides, there would have been peace years ago.

"The acceptance of partition does not commit us to renounce Transjordan: one does not demand from anybody to give up his vision. We shall accept a state in the boundaries fixed today, but the boundaries of Zionist aspirations are the concern of the Jewish people and no external factor will be able to limit them.
Speech in 1937, accepting a British proposal for partition of Palestine which created a potential Jewish majority state, as quoted in New Outlook (April 1977)"

There will never be peace anywhere, especially in the oil rich Middle East, as long as war remains more profitable.

David Ben-Gurion - Wikiquote

 

[P F Tinmore]

"...If there were more leaders as honest as Ben Gurion on both sides, there would have been peace years ago."

Ol' Dave was honest, alright, but you'll notice that he did not surrender Israel on his watch, regardless, nor could he possibly have foreseen the complete and utter intransigence of his Arab neighbors nor decades of subsequent warfare nor Intifada I or II or endless rounds of suicide bombings and rocket attacks upon Israeli population centers at the time of that writing.

Transported 70 years into the future (present day), ol' Ben Gurion would probably shake his head in sadness, close the door, have a good cry for his lost vision of a shining city on a hill, then stiffen his spine and his demeanor, walk back into the room, and, sadly concede that his successors did the best they could under the circumstances in dealing with wicked, false-dealing, half-suicidal, foolish and increasingly aggressive and hostile and intransigent adversaries.

Ben Gurion was manifesting Reasonableness - an entirely alien and unfamiliar concept to the shadow governments of Palestine over the past 65 years, and the old boy was sensible enough to know that Reasonableness is a two-way street when all is said and done.

In the final analysis, ol' Dave's loyalties lie with Eretz Yisrael, not Palestine.

But you're right about one thing.

Had Israeli politicians continued in the spirit of these particular Ben Gurion musings, we would, indeed, have had peace, long ago.

At the cost of the State of Israel, and a couple of million more dead Jews, floating face-down in the Mediterranean.

Ol' Dave was honest, alright, but you'll notice that he did not surrender Israel on his watch, regardless, nor could he possibly have foreseen the complete and utter intransigence of his Arab neighbors nor decades of subsequent warfare nor Intifada I or II or endless rounds of suicide bombings and rocket attacks upon Israeli population centers at the time of that writing.

Occupations always have security problems. It comes with the territory.

 

[Saigon]

George -

I disagree with Ben Gurion's position on TransJordan, of course, but at least he had a vision and was honest and open about it. I have no problem with both sides presenting a strong front and going for the best deal they can get.

The reason I admire Ben Gurion more than Arafat is that Ben Gurion was willing to take what he could get, not walk away from it until he got everything he wanted.

 

[Kondor3]

"...Occupations always have security problems. It comes with the territory."

True. Pity the Arab-Palestinians didn't compromise while they still could. Now, it's too late. There will be an end to the so-called Occupation, and that soon. It just won't be the kind of 'end' that the Palestinians had in mind.

 

[georgephillip]

George -

I disagree with Ben Gurion's position on TransJordan, of course, but at least he had a vision and was honest and open about it. I have no problem with both sides presenting a strong front and going for the best deal they can get.

The reason I admire Ben Gurion more than Arafat is that Ben Gurion was willing to take what he could get, not walk away from it until he got everything he wanted.

The Arab leaders don't understand public relations as well as their Jewish counterparts.
I suspect that problem won't change anytime soon:

"The number of Palestinians who remained in their towns and village in 1948 after the Nakba was estimated at 154,000. Their number is now estimated as 1.4 million on the 65rd anniversary of the Nakba.

"In 1948, 1.4 million Palestinians lived in 1,300 Palestinian towns and villages in historic Palestine. The Israelis controlled 774 towns and villages and destroyed 531 Palestinian towns and villages during the Nakba.

"More than 800,000 of the population were driven out of their homeland to the West Bank and Gaza Strip, neighboring Arab countries and other countries of the world."

As long as arms sales, oil sales, and illegal drug profits comprise the three most lucrative enterprises on this planet, Israel will always win the PR wars in Palestine.

On Nakba anniversary, refugees make almost half of population | Israeli Occupation Archive

 

[Kondor3]

"...The Arab leaders don't understand public relations as well as their Jewish counterparts..."

Their Jewish counterparts have had 1,900 years of experience in living as a scattered people at the whim of their regional or national rulers and have long-since learned how to hunker down and go quiet and survive and also to package themselves to best advantage...

At that rate, we can expect Arab and Palestinian leadership to achieve that level of marketing-savvy by, oh, say, the year 3900 CE (AD) or so.

Nature's (or God's, or whatever) way of leveling the playing field against overwhelming odds and resources.

 

[ForeverYoung436]

We do not often hear it on this board, but I have very often been impressed by the honesty and integrity shown by Israelis about the conflict.

The most impressive of these must be Israel's first president - David Ben Gurion.

Here are some quotes from this amazing man:

A people which fights against the usurpation of its land will not tire so easily... it is easier for them to continue the war and not get tired than it is for us... The Palestinian Arabs are not alone. The Syrians are coming to help. From our point of view, they are strangers; in the point of law they are foreigners; but to the Arabs, they are not foreigners at all ... The centre of the war is in Palestine, but its dimensions are much wider. When we say that the Arabs are the aggressors and we defend ourselves — this is only half the truth. As regards our security and life we defend ourselves and our moral and physical position is not bad. We can face the gangs... and were we allowed to mobilize all our forces we would have no doubts about the outcome... But the fighting is only one aspect of the conflict which is in its essence a political one. And politically we are the aggressors and they defend themselves.

Under no circumstances must we touch land belonging to fellahs or worked by them. Only if a fellah leaves his place of settlement, should we offer to buy his land, at an appropriate price.

We do not wish, we do not need to expel the Arabs and take their place. All our aspirations are built upon the assumption — proven throughout all our activity in the Land — that there is enough room in the country for ourselves and the Arabs.

Terrorism benefits the Arabs, it may lay waste the Yishuv and shake Zionism. But to follow in the Arabs' footsteps and ape their deeds is to be blind to the gulf between us. Our aims and theirs run counter: methods calculated to further theirs, are ruinous to us.

Even amidst the violent attacks launched against us for months past, we call upon the sons of the Arab people dwelling in Israel to keep the peace and to play their part in building the State on the basis of full and equal citizenship and due representation in all its institutions, provisional and permanent.

David Ben-Gurion - Wikiquote

If there were more leaders as honest as Ben Gurion on both sides, there would have been peace years ago.

we are the aggressors and they defend themselves.

Indeed.

There were 500 Native American tribes living here, Tinmore. You should give up your house to them.

 

[Saigon]

Their Jewish counterparts have had 1,900 years of experience in living as a scattered people at the whim of their regional or national rulers and have long-since learned how to hunker down and go quiet and survive and also to package themselves to best advantage...

At that rate, we can expect Arab and Palestinian leadership to achieve that level of marketing-savvy by, oh, say, the year 3900 CE (AD) or so.

Nature's (or God's, or whatever) way of leveling the playing field against overwhelming odds and resources.

I think Israel has had the advantage of having a very educated, very 'westernised' and very sophisticated population; whereas the Palestinian population has been a ubiquitous example of the developing world - ill-educated, näive and frequently prone to counter-productive strategies.

None of this shouldblind us to the fact that the Palestinian people deserve a homeland.

 

[Kondor3]

"...I think Israel has had the advantage of having a very educated, very 'westernised' and very sophisticated population; whereas the Palestinian population has been a ubiquitous example of the developing world - ill-educated, näive and frequently prone to counter-productive strategies..."

Good catch. I agree that this is a huge factor - even more pertinent than the one I raised.

"...None of this should blind us to the fact that the Palestinian people deserve a homeland."

Personally, I have mixed reactions to that; torn between some modest measure of sympathy for Palestinian women and children, and some greater measure of pragmatism and bias attributable to the foolhardiness and tactics of the Palestinians over time.

But, deserved or no, it seems likely that the remaining Palestinians will disperse into their surrounding Arab-neighbor countries as the Israelis complete the job of nudging the Palestinians out of the few scattered remaining pockets of land that the Israelis consider vital to their long-term sustenance and defensibility.

 

[José]

I have something to say to 99% of the posters of this Message Board, from posters who display a great deal of sympathy for the Palestinian people, like Coyote and Saigon, to the most virulent, rabid zionists like Roudy:

You people make me puke.

You all defend democracy and racial equality in America and in Finland... but in Palestine you'd put any KKK Grand Master Wizard to shame...

tsk, tsk, tsk

 

[RoccoR]

Kondor3, Saigon, et al,

Some thought, serious consideration, should be given to this.

"...None of this should blind us to the fact that the Palestinian people deserve a homeland."

Personally, I have mixed reactions to that; torn between some modest measure of sympathy for Palestinian women and children, and some greater measure of pragmatism and bias attributable to the foolhardiness and tactics of the Palestinians over time.

(COMMENT)

There is nothing wrong with the concept of a "National Home." Just as it was recognized that the Jewish People needed a "National Home," so it was that simultaneously, the Ottoman Empire wanted to perserve the Palestinian National Home.

it being clearly understood that nothing shall be done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine,

It is very clear that there was wisdom in these words. And the wise men of today (whoever they turnout to be) should see to it that such a place exists for the Palestinian.

But, deserved or no, it seems likely that the remaining Palestinians will disperse into their surrounding Arab-neighbor countries as the Israelis complete the job of nudging the Palestinians out of the few scattered remaining pockets of land that the Israelis consider vital to their long-term sustenance and defensibility.

(COMMENT)

Keeping in mind the essential need for the Israeli to maintain sovereign integrity and to secure that integrity with defensible borders, we must also be mindful that we do not trade a Jewish diaspora for a Palestinian diaspora.

I am not entirely sure that the intent to "disperse into their surrounding Arab-neighbor countries as the Israelis complete the job of nudging the Palestinians out of the few scattered remaining pockets of land" will ultimately be in the best interest of either culture (Jewish or Palestinian), the region, or the greater aspect of humanity.

The object is to live together in a lasting peace, not to disperse in order to avoid an endless confrontation.

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[Saigon]

Rocco -

I totally agree with you. I think it's a shame when any people gets scattered to the wind by warfare, poverty or bad government.

I'd rather see educated Palestinians build a peaceful state in Palestine than all head to NYC, Paris or London.

There is nothing wrong with the concept of a "National Home." Just as it was recognized that the Jewish People needed a "National Home," so it was that simultaneously, the Ottoman Empire wanted to perserve the Palestinian National Home.

Indeed. And to me supporting one claim means at least understanding the other claim. All peoples deserve that right to self-determination, and it puzzles me that people think Jews deserve that but Palestinians don't - and visa versa.

 

[Coyote]

Kondor3, Saigon, et al,

Some thought, serious consideration, should be given to this.

"...None of this should blind us to the fact that the Palestinian people deserve a homeland."

Personally, I have mixed reactions to that; torn between some modest measure of sympathy for Palestinian women and children, and some greater measure of pragmatism and bias attributable to the foolhardiness and tactics of the Palestinians over time.

(COMMENT)

There is nothing wrong with the concept of a "National Home." Just as it was recognized that the Jewish People needed a "National Home," so it was that simultaneously, the Ottoman Empire wanted to perserve the Palestinian National Home.

it being clearly understood that nothing shall be done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine,

It is very clear that there was wisdom in these words. And the wise men of today (whoever they turnout to be) should see to it that such a place exists for the Palestinian.

But, deserved or no, it seems likely that the remaining Palestinians will disperse into their surrounding Arab-neighbor countries as the Israelis complete the job of nudging the Palestinians out of the few scattered remaining pockets of land that the Israelis consider vital to their long-term sustenance and defensibility.

(COMMENT)

Keeping in mind the essential need for the Israeli to maintain sovereign integrity and to secure that integrity with defensible borders, we must also be mindful that we do not trade a Jewish diaspora for a Palestinian diaspora.

I am not entirely sure that the intent to "disperse into their surrounding Arab-neighbor countries as the Israelis complete the job of nudging the Palestinians out of the few scattered remaining pockets of land" will ultimately be in the best interest of either culture (Jewish or Palestinian), the region, or the greater aspect of humanity.

The object is to live together in a lasting peace, not to disperse in order to avoid an endless confrontation.

Most Respectfully,
R

I couldn't agree more...you can't right an ancient wrong with another wrong nor can you forceably move almost 4 million people fron homes they've occupied for generations and expect other countries, who are dealing with their own problems of economy, ethnic divisions and unstable governments to take them in.

 

[P F Tinmore]

Kondor3, Saigon, et al,

Some thought, serious consideration, should be given to this.

"...None of this should blind us to the fact that the Palestinian people deserve a homeland."

(COMMENT)

There is nothing wrong with the concept of a "National Home." Just as it was recognized that the Jewish People needed a "National Home," so it was that simultaneously, the Ottoman Empire wanted to perserve the Palestinian National Home.



It is very clear that there was wisdom in these words. And the wise men of today (whoever they turnout to be) should see to it that such a place exists for the Palestinian.

But, deserved or no, it seems likely that the remaining Palestinians will disperse into their surrounding Arab-neighbor countries as the Israelis complete the job of nudging the Palestinians out of the few scattered remaining pockets of land that the Israelis consider vital to their long-term sustenance and defensibility.

(COMMENT)

Keeping in mind the essential need for the Israeli to maintain sovereign integrity and to secure that integrity with defensible borders, we must also be mindful that we do not trade a Jewish diaspora for a Palestinian diaspora.

I am not entirely sure that the intent to "disperse into their surrounding Arab-neighbor countries as the Israelis complete the job of nudging the Palestinians out of the few scattered remaining pockets of land" will ultimately be in the best interest of either culture (Jewish or Palestinian), the region, or the greater aspect of humanity.

The object is to live together in a lasting peace, not to disperse in order to avoid an endless confrontation.

Most Respectfully,
R

I couldn't agree more...you can't right an ancient wrong with another wrong nor can you forceably move almost 4 million people fron homes they've occupied for generations and expect other countries, who are dealing with their own problems of economy, ethnic divisions and unstable governments to take them in.

And besides, when did it become their job to clean up after Israel?

 

[CMike]

We do not often hear it on this board, but I have very often been impressed by the honesty and integrity shown by Israelis about the conflict.

The most impressive of these must be Israel's first president - David Ben Gurion.

Here are some quotes from this amazing man:

A people which fights against the usurpation of its land will not tire so easily... it is easier for them to continue the war and not get tired than it is for us... The Palestinian Arabs are not alone. The Syrians are coming to help. From our point of view, they are strangers; in the point of law they are foreigners; but to the Arabs, they are not foreigners at all ... The centre of the war is in Palestine, but its dimensions are much wider. When we say that the Arabs are the aggressors and we defend ourselves — this is only half the truth. As regards our security and life we defend ourselves and our moral and physical position is not bad. We can face the gangs... and were we allowed to mobilize all our forces we would have no doubts about the outcome... But the fighting is only one aspect of the conflict which is in its essence a political one. And politically we are the aggressors and they defend themselves.

Under no circumstances must we touch land belonging to fellahs or worked by them. Only if a fellah leaves his place of settlement, should we offer to buy his land, at an appropriate price.

We do not wish, we do not need to expel the Arabs and take their place. All our aspirations are built upon the assumption — proven throughout all our activity in the Land — that there is enough room in the country for ourselves and the Arabs.

Terrorism benefits the Arabs, it may lay waste the Yishuv and shake Zionism. But to follow in the Arabs' footsteps and ape their deeds is to be blind to the gulf between us. Our aims and theirs run counter: methods calculated to further theirs, are ruinous to us.

Even amidst the violent attacks launched against us for months past, we call upon the sons of the Arab people dwelling in Israel to keep the peace and to play their part in building the State on the basis of full and equal citizenship and due representation in all its institutions, provisional and permanent.

David Ben-Gurion - Wikiquote

If there were more leaders as honest as Ben Gurion on both sides, there would have been peace years ago.

Yup, and if an arab owned land that they wanted jews bought that land.

However, the arabs couldn't let Israel live in it's little sliver of land.

The day that the newly formed land of "Palestine" was to be take place, the arabs didn't accept it.

Five arab armies invaded Israel, and lost.

They then LOST that land in the face of their aggression.

They should have left Israel alone.

Since the arabs never accepted the partitiion of the new "Palestine" in the first place, there was no Palestine.

And no they don't get a do over.