Ben Stein Stumps Richard Dawkins.

[PostmodernProph]

I'm not sure if I follow you.

why not?.....are you unfamiliar with the doctrines of Christianity?.....you were criticizing God for punishing an innocent in the place of the guilty.....this overlooks the fact that the innocent he was punishing was his incarnate self......

would you likewise describe everyone who sacrifices himself to save someone else, for example a fireman who dies trying to rescue a child from a burning building, as morally bankrupt and Satanic?......

Pointless.

Comparing objective reality (acts of firemen in your story), to unsupportable claims that appeal to supernaturalism (invented configurations of gods), is utterly ridiculous.

please Hollie....if you don't have anything intelligent to say, simply shut the fuck up.....

 

[DriftingSand]

Robert Jastrow quote:

“Theologians generally are delighted with the proof that the universe had a beginning, but astronomers are curiously upset. It turns out that the scientist behaves the way the rest of us do when our beliefs are in conflict with the evidence.”
– Dr. Robert Jastrow, God and the Astronomers (1992)

Relevant Pioneer Quotes ? Dr. Robert Jastrow | Christian Evidences Ministries

TIME has a beginning, the universe of energy has no beginning nor end.

Watch out ... modern science is turning the tables on the "naturalistic" argument and pointing towards intelligent design. What you hold faithfully dear to your heart is in jeopardy of being overturned -- scientifically.

If time had a beginning what was energy doing an hour before time existed?

 

[Hollie]

Sorry....three strikes and you're out.

First, Berlinski is a mathematician.

mathematician (ˌmæθəməˈtɪʃən; ˌmæθmə-)
n
1. (Mathematics) an expert or specialist in mathematics
mathematician - definition of mathematician by the Free Online Dictionary, Thesaurus and Encyclopedia.



2. Secondly, science has no explanation for the creation of the universe.
This is the answer to the question that you ran away from three times.

Now, the reason you ran from it is that you are a hate-blinded bigot, a virulent foe of religion.

Aside from the New Atheist's there are many scientists who see religion fit into their beliefs.
In fact, most scientists believe in God, or some definition of the Divine.

"According to the poll, just over half of scientists (51%) believe in some form of deity or higher power; specifically, 33% of scientists say they believe in God, while 18% believe in a universal spirit or higher power."
Scientists and Belief | Pew Research Center's Religion & Public Life Project


Your greatest fear is that admitting that science cannot answer the question that I asked might leave room for a belief in God.


I don't know why you fear that so, but you do.




3. I had a great deal of fun making you look like Swiss Cheese.

1. Cutting and pasting "quotes", like cutting pasting dictionary definitions is pointless when you don't understand the underlying concepts.




2. Berlinski is a mathematician only in the realm of fundie creation ministries where honesty and credibility aren't important.




3. Your arguments do have the odor of moldy Swiss cheese.

1) First of all ... there's nothing at all wrong with cutting and pasting if the information is relevant to the conversation. If it's someone else's original idea then they should be credit for it. That's why links are provided.

2) A mathematician is a mathematician regardless of his religious affiliations just as an Atheist fireman puts out fires just like a Christian fireman does. That's one of silliest arguments you've made to date -- and there are a lot of them.

3) Meaningless and irrelevant.

1) First of all... cutting send pasting is the entirety of PC's spam posts. There's no "information". There's cut and paste "quotes" which she lifts from from Harun Yahya and extremist Christian websites.

2) Curious comment as your post identifies Berlinski as a Jew.

3) Crediting Berlinski as a mathematician is certainly meaningless.

Encyclopedia of American Loons: Search results for Berlinski

 

[PostmodernProph]

Everything that have a beginning must have a cause.

Which would include the gods.

obviously not ones that don't have a beginning.....because, like he said, everything that has a beginning.....things that don't have a beginning are probably not included in the field of things that have a beginning, doncha' think?.....

 

[edthecynic]

Interesting perspective:

More interesting reality:

"The national government will maintain and defend the foundations on which the power of our nation rests. It will offer strong protection to Christianity as the very basis of our collective morality.
Today Christians stand at the head of our country.
We want to fill our culture again with the Christian spirit.
We want to burn out all the recent immoral developments in literature, in the theatre, and in the press-- in short, we want to burn out the poison of immorality which has entered into our whole life and culture as a result of LIBERAL excess during the past years."
[The Speeches of Adolph Hitler, 1922-1939, Vol. 1 (London, Oxford University Press, 1942), pg. 871-872]

 

[edthecynic]

why not?.....are you unfamiliar with the doctrines of Christianity?.....you were criticizing God for punishing an innocent in the place of the guilty.....this overlooks the fact that the innocent he was punishing was his incarnate self......

would you likewise describe everyone who sacrifices himself to save someone else, for example a fireman who dies trying to rescue a child from a burning building, as morally bankrupt and Satanic?......

A fireman trying to save someone is not the same as you committing murder and you agreeing to allow them to hang your daughter in your place!!!

I can certainly agree with that....but that ignores my point.....God sacrificed himself, not someone else.......(not to mention God didn't commit any murders)......

And your daughter sacrificed herself and she didn't commit any murders, but in both cases it is still morally bankrupt to sacrifice an innocent for the evil deeds of the guilty no matter how willing the sacrificial victim.

 

[Hollie]

Robert Jastrow quote:

Relevant Pioneer Quotes ? Dr. Robert Jastrow | Christian Evidences Ministries

TIME has a beginning, the universe of energy has no beginning nor end.

Watch out ... modern science is turning the tables on the "naturalistic" argument and pointing towards intelligent design. What you hold faithfully dear to your heart is in jeopardy of being overturned -- scientifically.

Watch out... That's fraudulent. The arguments for magic and supernaturalism made by the hyper-religious Christian Right are no more credible now than before.

The contention that your particular sectarian version of god(s) is real and extant is an excuse to allow yourself the freedom of making unsupported assertions, not an argument. We have no reason to believe your claims of god(s) to be true, certainly no evidence for the claim. Most religions have no problem “conceiving” of their respective gods, up until they reach they point where they have directly contradicted themselves. Only then do they throw up their hands in an intellectual punt and exclaim, “Well, god is really beyond our comprehension anyway.”

 

[DriftingSand]

Interesting perspective:

More interesting reality:

"The national government will maintain and defend the foundations on which the power of our nation rests. It will offer strong protection to Christianity as the very basis of our collective morality.
Today Christians stand at the head of our country.
We want to fill our culture again with the Christian spirit.
We want to burn out all the recent immoral developments in literature, in the theatre, and in the press-- in short, we want to burn out the poison of immorality which has entered into our whole life and culture as a result of LIBERAL excess during the past years."
[The Speeches of Adolph Hitler, 1922-1939, Vol. 1 (London, Oxford University Press, 1942), pg. 871-872]

Hitler believed in a superior, evolved race which compliments Darwinian doctrine. However, his view of Christianity in no way mirrored the teachings of Christ. Therefore, he was more of a proponent of Darwinism than he was of Christianity. He also needed the Roman Catholic Church's support during his rise to power so he needed to appeal to their dogma.

 

[edthecynic]

logic....again providing evidence that atheists are certainly not logical.....

Was it "logic" that edited out "the Big Crunch" from my answer, or dishonesty?

Again providing evidence that Christians are certainly not honest.

I assumed that was a joke....was there any reason not to edit it out?......

The fact that you assumed the Big Crunch was a joke is testament to your ignorance on the subject.
Thank you.

 

[DriftingSand]

TIME has a beginning, the universe of energy has no beginning nor end.

Watch out ... modern science is turning the tables on the "naturalistic" argument and pointing towards intelligent design. What you hold faithfully dear to your heart is in jeopardy of being overturned -- scientifically.

Watch out... That's fraudulent. The arguments for magic and supernaturalism made by the hyper-religious Christian Right are no more credible now than before.

The contention that your particular sectarian version of god(s) is real and extant is an excuse to allow yourself the freedom of making unsupported assertions, not an argument. We have no reason to believe your claims of god(s) to be true, certainly no evidence for the claim. Most religions have no problem “conceiving” of their respective gods, up until they reach they point where they have directly contradicted themselves. Only then do they throw up their hands in an intellectual punt and exclaim, “Well, god is really beyond our comprehension anyway.”

You quite obviously failed to watch this video:

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Dlsw9wsN60]Creation is a Scientific Fact (MUST SEE!) - YouTube[/ame]

I suggest that you don't -- it will certainly throw your religion on its ear. Scientific fact after scientific fact. Irrefutable evidence for Intelligent Design.

 

[edthecynic]

Robert Jastrow quote:

Relevant Pioneer Quotes ? Dr. Robert Jastrow | Christian Evidences Ministries

TIME has a beginning, the universe of energy has no beginning nor end.

Watch out ... modern science is turning the tables on the "naturalistic" argument and pointing towards intelligent design. What you hold faithfully dear to your heart is in jeopardy of being overturned -- scientifically.

If time had a beginning what was energy doing an hour before time existed?

Contracting via the Big Crunch.

 

[DriftingSand]

TIME has a beginning, the universe of energy has no beginning nor end.

Watch out ... modern science is turning the tables on the "naturalistic" argument and pointing towards intelligent design. What you hold faithfully dear to your heart is in jeopardy of being overturned -- scientifically.

If time had a beginning what was energy doing an hour before time existed?

Contracting via the Big Crunch.

So you're saying that time didn't have a beginning? You really didn't answer my question. If we agree that time had a beginning then what was energy doing 5 years before time began? The only logical explanation is that energy, too, had a beginning.

 

[edthecynic]

Interesting perspective:

More interesting reality:

"The national government will maintain and defend the foundations on which the power of our nation rests. It will offer strong protection to Christianity as the very basis of our collective morality.
Today Christians stand at the head of our country.
We want to fill our culture again with the Christian spirit.
We want to burn out all the recent immoral developments in literature, in the theatre, and in the press-- in short, we want to burn out the poison of immorality which has entered into our whole life and culture as a result of LIBERAL excess during the past years."
[The Speeches of Adolph Hitler, 1922-1939, Vol. 1 (London, Oxford University Press, 1942), pg. 871-872]

Hitler believed in a superior, evolved race which compliments Darwinian doctrine. However, his view of Christianity in no way mirrored the teachings of Christ. Therefore, he was more of a proponent of Darwinism than he was of Christianity. He also needed the Roman Catholic Church's support during his rise to power so he needed to appeal to their dogma.

Both Hitler and Darwin, as well as any sane person, would disagree with you.

My feelings as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded only by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them and who, God's truth! was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter.
In boundless love as a Christian and as a man I read through the passage which tells us how the Lord at last rose in His might and seized the scourge to drive out of the Temple the brood of vipers and adders. How terrific was His fight for the world against the Jewish poison.
To-day, after two thousand years, with deepest emotion I recognize more profoundly than ever before in the fact that it was for this that He had to shed His blood upon the Cross.
As a Christian I have no duty to allow myself to be cheated, but I have the duty to be a fighter for truth and justice.... And if there is anything which could demonstrate that we are acting rightly it is the distress that daily grows.
For as a Christian I have also a duty to my own people.... When I go out in the morning and see these men standing in their queues and look into their pinched faces, then I believe
I would be no Christian, but a very devil if I felt no pity for them, if I did not, as did our Lord two thousand years ago, turn against those by whom to-day this poor people is plundered and exploited.

-Adolf Hitler, in a speech on 12 April 1922 (Norman H. Baynes, ed. The Speeches of Adolf Hitler, April 1922-August 1939, Vol. 1 of 2, pp. 19-20, Oxford University Press, 1942)

 

[edthecynic]

Watch out ... modern science is turning the tables on the "naturalistic" argument and pointing towards intelligent design. What you hold faithfully dear to your heart is in jeopardy of being overturned -- scientifically.

Watch out... That's fraudulent. The arguments for magic and supernaturalism made by the hyper-religious Christian Right are no more credible now than before.

The contention that your particular sectarian version of god(s) is real and extant is an excuse to allow yourself the freedom of making unsupported assertions, not an argument. We have no reason to believe your claims of god(s) to be true, certainly no evidence for the claim. Most religions have no problem “conceiving” of their respective gods, up until they reach they point where they have directly contradicted themselves. Only then do they throw up their hands in an intellectual punt and exclaim, “Well, god is really beyond our comprehension anyway.”

You quite obviously failed to watch this video:

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Dlsw9wsN60]Creation is a Scientific Fact (MUST SEE!) - YouTube[/ame]

I suggest that you don't -- it will certainly throw your religion on its ear. Scientific fact after scientific fact. Irrefutable evidence for Intelligent Design.

I already shot holes in that video earlier and you ran away from it. You don't get to revive it without addressing my rebuttal!!!

 

[edthecynic]

TIME has a beginning, the universe of energy has no beginning nor end.

Watch out ... modern science is turning the tables on the "naturalistic" argument and pointing towards intelligent design. What you hold faithfully dear to your heart is in jeopardy of being overturned -- scientifically.

If time had a beginning what was energy doing an hour before time existed?

Contracting via the Big Crunch.

So you're saying that time didn't have a beginning? You really didn't answer my question. If we agree that time had a beginning then what was energy doing 5 years before time began? The only logical explanation is that energy, too, had a beginning.

Time and energy are two DIFFERENT things!!!!!! There is NO "logic" to equating the two.

 

[DriftingSand]

More interesting reality:

"The national government will maintain and defend the foundations on which the power of our nation rests. It will offer strong protection to Christianity as the very basis of our collective morality.
Today Christians stand at the head of our country.
We want to fill our culture again with the Christian spirit.
We want to burn out all the recent immoral developments in literature, in the theatre, and in the press-- in short, we want to burn out the poison of immorality which has entered into our whole life and culture as a result of LIBERAL excess during the past years."
[The Speeches of Adolph Hitler, 1922-1939, Vol. 1 (London, Oxford University Press, 1942), pg. 871-872]

Hitler believed in a superior, evolved race which compliments Darwinian doctrine. However, his view of Christianity in no way mirrored the teachings of Christ. Therefore, he was more of a proponent of Darwinism than he was of Christianity. He also needed the Roman Catholic Church's support during his rise to power so he needed to appeal to their dogma.

Both Hitler and Darwin, as well as any sane person, would disagree with you.

My feelings as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded only by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them and who, God's truth! was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter.
In boundless love as a Christian and as a man I read through the passage which tells us how the Lord at last rose in His might and seized the scourge to drive out of the Temple the brood of vipers and adders. How terrific was His fight for the world against the Jewish poison.
To-day, after two thousand years, with deepest emotion I recognize more profoundly than ever before in the fact that it was for this that He had to shed His blood upon the Cross.
As a Christian I have no duty to allow myself to be cheated, but I have the duty to be a fighter for truth and justice.... And if there is anything which could demonstrate that we are acting rightly it is the distress that daily grows.
For as a Christian I have also a duty to my own people.... When I go out in the morning and see these men standing in their queues and look into their pinched faces, then I believe
I would be no Christian, but a very devil if I felt no pity for them, if I did not, as did our Lord two thousand years ago, turn against those by whom to-day this poor people is plundered and exploited.

-Adolf Hitler, in a speech on 12 April 1922 (Norman H. Baynes, ed. The Speeches of Adolf Hitler, April 1922-August 1939, Vol. 1 of 2, pp. 19-20, Oxford University Press, 1942)

Again ... what he says doesn't mirror the teachings of Christ.

1) Christ, Himself, was of the tribe of Judah.
2) His disciples were of the tribes of Judah and Benjamin.
3) Many Jews believed on Him and were saved.
4) Christ never advocated concentration camps or the killing of anyone who opposed Him.

Jim Jones of Guyana mimicked some of the words of the Bible and claimed to be a Christian then ordered a massive, group suicide. Not something Christ would have even considered. So just because someone pays lip service to a belief doesn't mean that he's an adherent of that belief system -- not in real terms.

Darwinism, on the other hand, advocates "survival of the fittest" and preaches that species are always evolving to a higher state of being. Hitler's practical application of Darwinism was revealed and shown in his methods and tells the real story.

 

[DriftingSand]

Watch out... That's fraudulent. The arguments for magic and supernaturalism made by the hyper-religious Christian Right are no more credible now than before.

The contention that your particular sectarian version of god(s) is real and extant is an excuse to allow yourself the freedom of making unsupported assertions, not an argument. We have no reason to believe your claims of god(s) to be true, certainly no evidence for the claim. Most religions have no problem “conceiving” of their respective gods, up until they reach they point where they have directly contradicted themselves. Only then do they throw up their hands in an intellectual punt and exclaim, “Well, god is really beyond our comprehension anyway.”

You quite obviously failed to watch this video:

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Dlsw9wsN60"]Creation is a Scientific Fact (MUST SEE!) - YouTube[/ame]

I suggest that you don't -- it will certainly throw your religion on its ear. Scientific fact after scientific fact. Irrefutable evidence for Intelligent Design.

I already shot holes in that video earlier and you ran away from it. You don't get to revive it without addressing my rebuttal!!!

LOL. You didn't even begin to "shoot holes" in the video.

 

[Hollie]

Everything that have a beginning must have a cause.

Which would include the gods.

obviously not ones that don't have a beginning.....because, like he said, everything that has a beginning.....things that don't have a beginning are probably not included in the field of things that have a beginning, doncha' think?.....

You should try actually thinking. Try thinking about the unsupported and juvenile claim that your gods are excused from the very laws of existence that you claim they actually "designed "

Think about bringing a grown up argument to the table. You cannot demand a standard for all of existence, and then exempt something that is in existence of the very standard you insist must be applied to all things.

 

[Hollie]

Watch out ... modern science is turning the tables on the "naturalistic" argument and pointing towards intelligent design. What you hold faithfully dear to your heart is in jeopardy of being overturned -- scientifically.

Watch out... That's fraudulent. The arguments for magic and supernaturalism made by the hyper-religious Christian Right are no more credible now than before.

The contention that your particular sectarian version of god(s) is real and extant is an excuse to allow yourself the freedom of making unsupported assertions, not an argument. We have no reason to believe your claims of god(s) to be true, certainly no evidence for the claim. Most religions have no problem “conceiving” of their respective gods, up until they reach they point where they have directly contradicted themselves. Only then do they throw up their hands in an intellectual punt and exclaim, “Well, god is really beyond our comprehension anyway.”

You quite obviously failed to watch this video:


I suggest that you don't -- it will certainly throw your religion on its ear. Scientific fact after scientific fact. Irrefutable evidence for Intelligent Design.

The silly video was a hoax.

 

[edthecynic]

Hitler believed in a superior, evolved race which compliments Darwinian doctrine. However, his view of Christianity in no way mirrored the teachings of Christ. Therefore, he was more of a proponent of Darwinism than he was of Christianity. He also needed the Roman Catholic Church's support during his rise to power so he needed to appeal to their dogma.

Both Hitler and Darwin, as well as any sane person, would disagree with you.

My feelings as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded only by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them and who, God's truth! was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter.
In boundless love as a Christian and as a man I read through the passage which tells us how the Lord at last rose in His might and seized the scourge to drive out of the Temple the brood of vipers and adders. How terrific was His fight for the world against the Jewish poison.
To-day, after two thousand years, with deepest emotion I recognize more profoundly than ever before in the fact that it was for this that He had to shed His blood upon the Cross.
As a Christian I have no duty to allow myself to be cheated, but I have the duty to be a fighter for truth and justice.... And if there is anything which could demonstrate that we are acting rightly it is the distress that daily grows.
For as a Christian I have also a duty to my own people.... When I go out in the morning and see these men standing in their queues and look into their pinched faces, then I believe
I would be no Christian, but a very devil if I felt no pity for them, if I did not, as did our Lord two thousand years ago, turn against those by whom to-day this poor people is plundered and exploited.

-Adolf Hitler, in a speech on 12 April 1922 (Norman H. Baynes, ed. The Speeches of Adolf Hitler, April 1922-August 1939, Vol. 1 of 2, pp. 19-20, Oxford University Press, 1942)

Again ... what he says doesn't mirror the teachings of Christ.

1) Christ, Himself, was of the tribe of Judah.
2) His disciples were of the tribes of Judah and Benjamin.
3) Many Jews believed on Him and were saved.
4) Christ never advocated concentration camps or the killing of anyone who opposed Him.

Jim Jones of Guyana mimicked some of the words of the Bible and claimed to be a Christian then ordered a massive, group suicide. Not something Christ would have even considered. So just because someone pays lip service to a belief doesn't mean that he's an adherent of that belief system -- not in real terms.

Darwinism, on the other hand, advocates "survival of the fittest" and preaches that species are always evolving to a higher state of being. Hitler's practical application of Darwinism was revealed and shown in his methods and tells the real story.

So now suddenly Jesus and God are not one and the same!

Num 31: 7 And they warred against the Midianites, as the LORD commanded Moses; and they slew all the males.
8 And they slew the kings of Midian, beside the rest of them that were slain; namely, Evi, and Rekem, and Zur, and Hur, and Reba, five kings of Midian: Balaam also the son of Beor they slew with the sword.
9 And the children of Israel took all the women of Midian captives, and their little ones, and took the spoil of all their cattle, and all their flocks, and all their goods.
10 And they burnt all their cities wherein they dwelt, and all their goodly castles, with fire.
11 And they took all the spoil, and all the prey, both of men and of beasts.
12 And they brought the captives, and the prey, and the spoil, unto Moses, and Eleazar the priest, and unto the congregation of the children of Israel, unto the camp at the plains of Moab, which are by Jordan near Jericho.
13 And Moses, and Eleazar the priest, and all the princes of the congregation, went forth to meet them without the camp.
14 And Moses was wroth with the officers of the host, with the captains over thousands, and captains over hundreds, which came from the battle.
15 And Moses said unto them, Have ye saved all the women alive?
16 Behold, these caused the children of Israel, through the counsel of Balaam, to commit trespass against the LORD in the matter of Peor, and there was a plague among the congregation of the LORD.
17 Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him.
18 But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves.