- Sep 9, 2022
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- #241
??????????????????? I served in the Army and do not recognize that series above.11B4S
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??????????????????? I served in the Army and do not recognize that series above.11B4S
11B is infantry.??????????????????? I served in the Army and do not recognize that series above.
Things really changed. When I was in Infantry was 111 as I recall.11B is infantry.
You just indicted Biden. Clearly you did.
I trust what you say here.There is no “indictment” under the PRA of 1978, it’s civil law. One aspect of it, it defines ownership and for Presidential records that is the US Government.
For criminal aspects pertaining to classified documents one has to go to the Espionage Act statutes.
More with that said as someone that handled classified documents for 20 years, I’m fine with charging FPOTUS#45, fine with charging VP Pence right more, and charging Biden when he leaves office.
WW
No one does, not even our presidents.
But fyi, under Obama, through executive order, the vp (Biden) was given the same classifying and declassifying power as the president....
That includes giving permanent copies to themselves if they want.
There is no “indictment” under the PRA of 1978, it’s civil law. One aspect of it, it defines ownership and for Presidential records that is the US Government.
For criminal aspects pertaining to classified documents one has to go to the Espionage Act statutes.
Now with that said, as someone that handled classified documents for 20 years, I’m fine with charging FPOTUS#45, fine with charging VP Pence right more, and charging Biden when he leaves office.
WW
Presidential records are unique things like signed treaties, written speeches, letters of gratitude, etc.
If you have handled classified docs then you had a security clearance and followed an entirely different set of rules and laws than presidents and VPs.
Like all politicians, presidents and VPs could NEVER get a security clearance, since the main virtue is financial stability, which no politician ever has.
They do not follow any classified doc executive order, and instead are immune by executive privilege.
There is essentially nothing they cannot do with classified docs.
I'm sorry, if you think that President's can give themselves personal copies of classified documents and then retrain them when they are out of office, you are going to be very disappointed.
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See this is what people that don't understand what "classified" shows. Documents are not "declassified" it is the information in the document that is declassified. The document is a piece of paper, it is the information that is important.
For example let’s say that there are 6 copies of a specific document containing specific classified information. One located in the White House, 5 located amongst various agencies which also need the document. In addition there are subordinate documents that contain (either in part of in whole some of the same classified information).
Under a normal process when the information contained in a highly classified documents is declassified (or downgraded) that impacts all copies of the document (its information, and subordinate documents containing the same information in whole or portions of a subordinate document).
So If the FPOTUS "declassified" a document, he is really declassifying the information in that document. If the FPOTUS, while acting as POTUS, "declassified" the information without telling anyone (either directly or in writing) for that specific document, you end up with:
The result is someone could be prosecuted for improper handling of classified material for actions related to the 5 responsible agency documents, but not for improper handling of the exact same document if the source of the document was the White House. But they contain the same information! By this we are talking about the information in the document and subordinate information which sourced the document which can have even wider reaching impacts.
- One copy of the information located at the White House (or one of his Country Clubs) being "declassified", and
- Five copies of the information located at the responsible agencies still being classified as the responsible agencies will not know the information was declassified because the FPOTUS (while POTUS) just mentally declassified the information in his head.
The national security infrastructure cannot function in a reasonable way if the same information is both classified and declassified at the same time simply because the POTUS chooses not to tell anyone.
Kind of a Schrodinger's Classified document where the same information is both classified and declassified at the same time until someone asks the FPOTUS to find out if he mentally and secretly declassified it without telling anyone while still POTUS. Normal people wouldn't know just by looking at the document.
WW
View attachment 900634
Much more than that.
I agree. Presidents/VP's/Elected Officials operate under different rules.
False, one thing they cannot do is take personal copies and keep them after they leave office and willfully fail surrender them to authorized Officers of the Government.
Ex-Presidents, Ex-Vice Presidents, Ex-Elected Officials have no right to keep government property or classified documents.
WW
Wrong.
President do NOT at all ever have to "declassify" any classified doc in order to do whatever they want with them.
False, one thing they cannot do is take personal copies and keep them after they leave office and willfully fail surrender them to authorized Officers of the Government.
Ex-Presidents, Ex-Vice Presidents, Ex-Elected Officials have no right to keep government property or classified documents.
#1 FPOTUS#45 has not claimed he declassified anything to the court.
#2 The "F" in FPOTUS#45 stands for "Former", he isn't the President.
WW
VPs do not have that authority, Simp.You said "no one does", and that is wrong.
Presidents and VPs ARE given total and complete discretion to do whatever they want with classified docs.
That includes giving permanent copies to themselves if they want.
The other laws, like over NARA and PRA, are to ensure FOIA also gets copies.
But those laws have nothing to do with personal copies.
But Biden ALSO has classified docs back from when he was in congress, which is totally illegal.
Politicians are not able to get security clearances so can not legally have classified docs unless given to them by a president of VP.
Former presidents retain total ownership of all the classified docs created during their administration.
1. You're probably right from the legal outcome, but..."personal records" are excluded from that law.View attachment 900595
Sorry my friend, it's really not. The PRA of 1978 is very clear on who owes Presidential Records (and it ain't the ex-President).
Nor does it provide a shield under the Espionage Act (and associated obstruction).
The Judicial Watches lawsuit failed because (a) Clinton's tapes were personal for writing memoirs after leaving office, (b) it asked the NARA to try to force personal records be turned over.
The Justice department wasn't seizing personal records, they were seizing US Government property and classified documents. Clintons memoir tapes have no being on FPOTUS#45's classified documents case. I know he keeps this belief alive to the uninformed, but its is not a winning "Trump Card" (pardon the pun) in court.
WW
2. I think that there were personal records and attorney-client privileged papers mixed in and I seem to recall discussing a "special master" to look thru everything and sort the paper out? That didn't happen for some reason?
Appeals Court Scraps Special Master Review in Trump Documents Case (Published 2022)
The panel’s decision removed a major obstacle to the Justice Department’s investigation into Mr. Trump’s handling of sensitive government documents.www.nytimes.com