Bundy Cattle Battle: What SHOULD the BLM officers had worn, since thats the outrage?

[The2ndAmendment]

SS Uniforms.

 

[bucs90]

But Bundy wasn't wielding a knife or even a rock. He wasn't posing a threat to the armed assailants.

But the hundreds of protestors were packing serious firepower. And, Bundy owns guns.

Go to ANY police dept in the nation, and if they are going to serve a court order on a guy with guns in the home and an expressed intent to not abide by any government order......they aren't showing up with Andy and Barney and a couple six shooters.

There have been far too many cops killed doing it the old fashioned Mayberry way to keep doing it that way. Sorry, that's just how it is now. Cops and their families are tired of seeing them get killed doing it the Mayberry way.

Generally, reasonable people get treated reasonably, unreasonable people are treated otherwise. The more I hear it seems the response was as cautious as a bunch of paranoid federal law dogs could make it considering the crazy people they were dealing with.

Yes, that's the case 99% of the time. And yes, the Feds are often more paranoid and heavy-handed than local police or sheriffs, mostly due to the locals being more familiar with the other local citizens than Feds are.

 

[bucs90]

SS Uniforms.

Ah. So now you are comparing American law enforcement officers....to the Nazi death squads? Classy.

BTW, it was a Bush appointed judge who issued the court order that they were tasked with enforcing.

 

[R.C. Christian]

The guys with the big guns were government contractors. Pure filth that should be shot on site.

 

[bucs90]

The feds could simply have put a lien on the property and no one would have had to go through any of this.

But what about THEIR property? It was his cows, on THEIR property, that the court ordered to be moved.

You can only mooch off the government for so long. Bundy did it for decades by raking in money from grazing his cows on federal land.

So you're now gonna say they should get ANOTHER court order...to get his property off of federal land? They tried for 21 years to do it through courts.

But Bundy...in his own words...says he does not even recognize the federal government's existence.

 

[bucs90]

The guys with the big guns were government contractors. Pure filth that should be shot on site.

Which ones? Both sides had big guns.

Loved the video of the idiot with 'skinny jeans' and a plaid shirt...with his hipster glasses and hat....carrying an AR15 walking around like he's on patrol or something.

 

[CaféAuLait]

So, I was watching several Fox segments (as well as MSNBC) to see the clownish MSM response to "CATTLE BATTLE 2014". Judge Napolitano said the government was 100% right on ALL actions since they had court orders...EXCEPT what he called the outrageously excessive show of force and weapons; Same for so many other right wingers, who are outraged more about the cops (I'll refer to the BLM agents as that for now) dress and weapons.

So...what SHOULD they have worn or carried?

GUNS: As a long time gun rights supporter, I have often sided with the right about this- an AR15/M16 is FAR SAFER than a pistol or shotgun when shooting in a crowd. It is far more accurate, and thus, safer. So why are RW'ers pissed that the BLM cops had these rifles....which RW'ers themselves have argued are so much safer and more efficient than a pistol or shotgun (And they're right, it is a far more accurate, safe gun for cops in a large, crowded area. Its why the military uses them). SO, I don't see the anger in their weapons.

DRESS: You want them in pink dresses with Easter Bunny patches? They were in BDU's, which the military wears, and so happens that military surplus and companies that make this stuff is an easy, cost effective way of dressing cops too. They are rugged, durable, and cheap. The company 5.11 specializes in that stuff. Now....should they all be wearing Andy Griffith polyester style uniforms? Um, no. Not for that environment (you know- rugged, dusty, working environment). So what about the "dress uniform" that you see most patrol cops in? Some were wearing that in khaki. But tactical units don't. They were uniforms that have more pockets (for stuff like extra flashlights, batteries, medical kits, etc) that regular patrol cops don't carry on their uniform for various reasons. So, its smarter and more cost efficient to dress them in stuff that is already mass produced (military), is good for protection (its why military uses it) and is effective in tactical situations (again....its why the military uses it).

Next, a Police Academy lesson for some of you. Many are outraged at the dress, equipment, AND sheer number of officers that arrived.

Do you folks realize that the MORE cops that are there, the LESS it justifies deadly force? That's right. The landmark court case Graham vs Connor which lays out police use of force says all force must be "reasonable and necessary".

And case law shows that if, say, 2 cops get attacked by 10 men, they can SHOOT those men; Because it is reasonable to think that 2 cops will LOSE a fight against 10 men, and possibly take their own guns and kill them. But what about 8 cops vs 10 men??? Nope. They likely would not meet the standard for deadly force.

So, if there are 500 protestors, and they get agitated, and they push forward towards 10 patrol cops with dress uniforms on and just pistols......there is a chance those cops could resort to deadly force to stop that perceived push towards them by 500 people.

BUT, if those 500 people pushed towards, say, 250 cops with tactical gear, rifles, shields, etc.....then the "reasonable and necessary" standard is MUCH higher, and those 250 cops would have almost no justification for using deadly force. So, in reality, the MORE cops and MORE tactical equipment that they have.......the LOWER the chance that they can legally use it against a crowd of people.

Just thought I'd drop some info to cut into the nonsense we're seeing on Fox, MSNBC and all the other whacko news agencies. I just don't get the anger of "OH MY GOD LOOK WHAT THEY ARE WEARING AND THE EQUIPMENT THEY HAVE, TYRANNY!!!".

The "500 protestors "did not show up until the Feds did with snipers, guns, and dogs, etc. It was just his family.

 

[boedicca]

200 SWAT team members against a 67 year old rancher while our borders are porous.

Go figure.

 

[bucs90]

200 SWAT team members against a 67 year old rancher while our borders are porous.

Go figure.

Good point. Kinda like 4 Navy warships for a lifeboat of 4 Somali fisherman and 1 dumb shipping captain in the Indian Ocean.......while drugs flow freely from the Carribean into our country.

And we spend tens of billions to secure borders in the Middle East.

But cant do the same here.

We spend billions to protect South Korea from violent North Koreans.

But we cant even put half that effort to protect peaceful Chicagoans from violent ones.

We'll spend enough to send an aircraft carrier, destroyer, cruiser and battleship to rescue 1 boat captain from 4 poorly trained pirates in the middle of the Indian Ocean. But we bitch about helping hungry people in American cities get food on their table.

You're right. Priorities are screwed.

 

[bucs90]

So, I was watching several Fox segments (as well as MSNBC) to see the clownish MSM response to "CATTLE BATTLE 2014". Judge Napolitano said the government was 100% right on ALL actions since they had court orders...EXCEPT what he called the outrageously excessive show of force and weapons; Same for so many other right wingers, who are outraged more about the cops (I'll refer to the BLM agents as that for now) dress and weapons.

So...what SHOULD they have worn or carried?

GUNS: As a long time gun rights supporter, I have often sided with the right about this- an AR15/M16 is FAR SAFER than a pistol or shotgun when shooting in a crowd. It is far more accurate, and thus, safer. So why are RW'ers pissed that the BLM cops had these rifles....which RW'ers themselves have argued are so much safer and more efficient than a pistol or shotgun (And they're right, it is a far more accurate, safe gun for cops in a large, crowded area. Its why the military uses them). SO, I don't see the anger in their weapons.

DRESS: You want them in pink dresses with Easter Bunny patches? They were in BDU's, which the military wears, and so happens that military surplus and companies that make this stuff is an easy, cost effective way of dressing cops too. They are rugged, durable, and cheap. The company 5.11 specializes in that stuff. Now....should they all be wearing Andy Griffith polyester style uniforms? Um, no. Not for that environment (you know- rugged, dusty, working environment). So what about the "dress uniform" that you see most patrol cops in? Some were wearing that in khaki. But tactical units don't. They were uniforms that have more pockets (for stuff like extra flashlights, batteries, medical kits, etc) that regular patrol cops don't carry on their uniform for various reasons. So, its smarter and more cost efficient to dress them in stuff that is already mass produced (military), is good for protection (its why military uses it) and is effective in tactical situations (again....its why the military uses it).

Next, a Police Academy lesson for some of you. Many are outraged at the dress, equipment, AND sheer number of officers that arrived.

Do you folks realize that the MORE cops that are there, the LESS it justifies deadly force? That's right. The landmark court case Graham vs Connor which lays out police use of force says all force must be "reasonable and necessary".

And case law shows that if, say, 2 cops get attacked by 10 men, they can SHOOT those men; Because it is reasonable to think that 2 cops will LOSE a fight against 10 men, and possibly take their own guns and kill them. But what about 8 cops vs 10 men??? Nope. They likely would not meet the standard for deadly force.

So, if there are 500 protestors, and they get agitated, and they push forward towards 10 patrol cops with dress uniforms on and just pistols......there is a chance those cops could resort to deadly force to stop that perceived push towards them by 500 people.

BUT, if those 500 people pushed towards, say, 250 cops with tactical gear, rifles, shields, etc.....then the "reasonable and necessary" standard is MUCH higher, and those 250 cops would have almost no justification for using deadly force. So, in reality, the MORE cops and MORE tactical equipment that they have.......the LOWER the chance that they can legally use it against a crowd of people.

Just thought I'd drop some info to cut into the nonsense we're seeing on Fox, MSNBC and all the other whacko news agencies. I just don't get the anger of "OH MY GOD LOOK WHAT THEY ARE WEARING AND THE EQUIPMENT THEY HAVE, TYRANNY!!!".

The "500 protestors "did not show up until the Feds did with snipers, guns, and dogs, etc. It was just his family.

SO in other words: Whoever was in charge of gathering intelligence for this incident did a damn good job, since it seems that they knew once they showed up, the shit would hit the fan and a storm of armed radical right wingers with rifles would show up........so they came prepared accordingly.

Someone probably got promoted for ensuring they were equipped and prepared for what they thought would happen when they tried to enforce that order. Good job on their part, and not a single person on either side was injured.

 

[Politico]

They wear their uniforms. Is this for real?

 

[blackhawk]

The feds could simply have put a lien on the property and no one would have had to go through any of this.

But what about THEIR property? It was his cows, on THEIR property, that the court ordered to be moved.

You can only mooch off the government for so long. Bundy did it for decades by raking in money from grazing his cows on federal land.

So you're now gonna say they should get ANOTHER court order...to get his property off of federal land? They tried for 21 years to do it through courts.

But Bundy...in his own words...says he does not even recognize the federal government's existence.

I find your complaint about people mooching of the government highly amusing and as you pointed out this has been going on for years so it's not like the government was really pushing to get the money put a lien on the property when he passes away the government gets all the money it's owed and they would not have come off looking like a bunch of idiots just one more example of the governments inability to grasp common sense solutions.

 

[occupied]

200 SWAT team members against a 67 year old rancher while our borders are porous.

Go figure.

We have a porous border because no one who lives on either side wants a militarized no-man's-land there filled with a bunch of mostly idle security personnel. More than anything our current policy reflects the feelings of border residents, especially those who live on the Rio Grande who do not want to surrender all their riverbank property to an ugly wall. Lots of ranchers down there, how much of their land ought to be seized to make a DMZ?

 

[bucs90]

The feds could simply have put a lien on the property and no one would have had to go through any of this.

But what about THEIR property? It was his cows, on THEIR property, that the court ordered to be moved.

You can only mooch off the government for so long. Bundy did it for decades by raking in money from grazing his cows on federal land.

So you're now gonna say they should get ANOTHER court order...to get his property off of federal land? They tried for 21 years to do it through courts.

But Bundy...in his own words...says he does not even recognize the federal government's existence.

I find your complaint about people mooching of the government highly amusing and as you pointed out this has been going on for years so it's not like the government was really pushing to get the money put a lien on the property when he passes away the government gets all the money it's owed and they would not have come off looking like a bunch of idiots just one more example of the governments inability to grasp common sense solutions.

Yeah, hes mooching. Hes been getting a sweetheart deal to graze his cows on federal property, and did it for decades; And for 21 years, didn't pay the rent. And now he wants them to ignore it and guess what, the government now wants that land clear. Hes pissed that his free ride is over!

They are dealing with a whackjob who has said, literally, that he does not recognize the existence of the federal government, and then he requested all these militia morons to come to his aid.

When dealing with a nut like that, common sense is long gone.

 

[R.C. Christian]

The guys with the big guns were government contractors. Pure filth that should be shot on site.

Which ones? Both sides had big guns.

Loved the video of the idiot with 'skinny jeans' and a plaid shirt...with his hipster glasses and hat....carrying an AR15 walking around like he's on patrol or something.

Hipsters shouldn't be allowed to do such things, I agree.

Everyone has an AR. I have 2 but the most bad ass rifle I have that would be appropriate for that kind of fight would be the AR and the M 14. That's a big rifle. Oh, and those other things they were carrying were tear gas, or grenade launchers Mr. Boot licker.

 

[CaféAuLait]

200 SWAT team members against a 67 year old rancher while our borders are porous.

Go figure.

Good point. Kinda like 4 Navy warships for a lifeboat of 4 Somali fisherman and 1 dumb shipping captain in the Indian Ocean.......while drugs flow freely from the Carribean into our country.

And we spend tens of billions to secure borders in the Middle East.

But cant do the same here.

We spend billions to protect South Korea from violent North Koreans.

But we cant even put half that effort to protect peaceful Chicagoans from violent ones.

We'll spend enough to send an aircraft carrier, destroyer, cruiser and battleship to rescue 1 boat captain from 4 poorly trained pirates in the middle of the Indian Ocean. But we bitch about helping hungry people in American cities get food on their table.

You're right. Priorities are screwed.

If you want us to start with drugs flow freely from the Caribbean, we need to focus on closing the borders from drugs from Mexico and South America first. Holder was on TV the other day speaking of all the Heroin coming from down there. Don't you think our open borders are a large problem allowing the issue to get worse?

 

[elektra]

A great question, what uniform should the BLM and the rest of the Agents of Government wear?

 

[blackhawk]

But what about THEIR property? It was his cows, on THEIR property, that the court ordered to be moved.

You can only mooch off the government for so long. Bundy did it for decades by raking in money from grazing his cows on federal land.

So you're now gonna say they should get ANOTHER court order...to get his property off of federal land? They tried for 21 years to do it through courts.

But Bundy...in his own words...says he does not even recognize the federal government's existence.

I find your complaint about people mooching of the government highly amusing and as you pointed out this has been going on for years so it's not like the government was really pushing to get the money put a lien on the property when he passes away the government gets all the money it's owed and they would not have come off looking like a bunch of idiots just one more example of the governments inability to grasp common sense solutions.

Yeah, hes mooching. Hes been getting a sweetheart deal to graze his cows on federal property, and did it for decades; And for 21 years, didn't pay the rent. And now he wants them to ignore it and guess what, the government now wants that land clear. Hes pissed that his free ride is over!

They are dealing with a whackjob who has said, literally, that he does not recognize the existence of the federal government, and then he requested all these militia morons to come to his aid.

When dealing with a nut like that, common sense is long gone.

With the lien you get everything your owed when he kicks the bucket the man is probably in his late 70s early 80s slap the lien on the property wait and you don't have to deal with him at all instead they turn him into a living martyr brilliant display of government idiocy.

 

[JimH52]

Rarely does a person get shot for advancing on an armored SWAT vehicle; Because the vehicle is secure and armored, there is no imminent threat to the cops, so they don't have the "reasonable and necessary" standard set by Graham vs Connor to shoot him since he cannot hurt them.

The BLM may have had an "army" of people there; But they were still outnumbered by protestors; See my original thread- the greater the ratio of being outnumbered, the more reasonable it is for cops to use higher force; But they rarely do. Usually, they call in more and more cops to even up the numbers, which actually raises the standard for use of force.

So, legally, you'd think the anti-govt crowed would demand MORE cops, so that they cant say "we were outnumbered" as an excuse to use high levels of force. But, that legal, common sense approach isn't usually what we see in the media.

The BLM weren't originally outnumbered. I remember the lefties laughing at all the militia that didn't show up. Graham vs Conner didn't set a standard, it is the examination of the totality of the circumstances. In other words, when it isn't a clear cut case of justifiable use of force.

There's no relevance here though. If the shit hit the fan and bullets started flying it wouldn't be a matter of the agents legal use of force, clearly they were there in an official capacity legally. I haven't heard anyone say the government acted illegally, just too heavy handed and had been for quite a while leading up to this.

Welfare Bundy has shown the world that, when you can't win in court, the legal way, you just whine and cry and finally get a bunch of knuckle draggers to bring their guns. That will get you national attention and, of course a bunch of FOX devotees to carry your banner.

So over night, he is transformed from a criminal into some kind of hero to the far right and the TP loons. But it is not over. Just keep watching.

 

[bucs90]

The guys with the big guns were government contractors. Pure filth that should be shot on site.

Which ones? Both sides had big guns.

Loved the video of the idiot with 'skinny jeans' and a plaid shirt...with his hipster glasses and hat....carrying an AR15 walking around like he's on patrol or something.

Hipsters shouldn't be allowed to do such things, I agree.

Everyone has an AR. I have 2 but the most bad ass rifle I have that would be appropriate for that kind of fight would be the AR and the M 14. That's a big rifle. Oh, and those other things they were carrying were tear gas, or grenade launchers Mr. Boot licker.

In the law enforcement world, its known as crowd control device. It's OC. It wears off in 30 minutes, and causes absolutely no permanent damage.

And seeing the type of armed, whacko crowd that showed up.......it was good planning to bring it.