Bundy Caught Lying about "Ancestral Rights"

[Nutz]

You are not paying attn. or simply being obtuse then claiming you are not being obtuse.
60 of 61 ranchers were run out of business. One left.

How where they run out of business? Just saying something about China and greenies doesn't prove a point to me. I need specifics. I am not looking it up myself because it is your argument and you are the one who says this justifies the Bundy's not paying grazing fees which is my principle issue.


And that was because of turtles? Do you have a link?


what law?

This is not the case of bundy breaking the law. This is the case of a rancher fighting a tyrannical government.

Again, I see no tyranny at this point and cannot understand why you are calling it so. I understand there is a lot to this 'issue'. I don't understand why one man's lawful debt to the US Government is tyranny and is a powder keg for an armed insurrection.

Troll.

LOL, really? I am a troll for asking you to defend your opinion? I really am open to understanding your point of view, but I am not going to agree with you just because you throw out unsubstantiated evidence. I guess you should go back to the flame fest style of debate, knee jerk reactions, and projecting!

There is nothing the matter with sticking to your guns, just be honest with me and yourself. I take it as far as we have different opinions, and I will gladly listen and remain open to any rational ideas. I can say that I am not firmly committed to one side or the other, but I am certainly leaning towards law and justice. I believe in civil disobedience and fighting the man as much as anyone else. But that fight has to be JUST and be able to stand up to scrutiny...otherwise, it is just anarchy.

Shouldn't your arguments be scrutinized or are people who try to understand just morons and trolls?

 

[peach174]

What is right? Can you explain to me how the Bundy's are right in this situation. No flaming, just trying to understand both sides. Please keep it relevant, if you choose to reply.

The Bundy's is not right. The Bundy's have done it the wrong way.
This is about corruption in the agencies.

said he found that “the government and the agents of the government in that locale( Gold Butte), sometime in the ’70s and ’80s, entered into a conspiracy, a literal, intentional conspiracy, to deprive the Hages and all of the Ranchers in that area of not only their permit grazing rights, for whatever reason, but also to deprive them of their vested property rights under the takings clause, and I find that that’s a sufficient basis to hold that there is irreparable harm if I don’t … restrain the government from continuing in that conduct.”

In fact, Judge Jones accused the federal bureaucrats of racketeering under the federal RICO (Racketeer Influenced and Corruption Organizations) statute, and accused them as well of extortion, mail fraud, and fraud, in an effort “to kill the business of Mr. Hage.”

They got rid of 53 other Ranchers and put them out of business. Only the Hage's and
Bundiy's remain plus a small amount of others.

The Hage's did it the right way and it took 30 years of court battles, but got no media coverage, nor any reports of the abuses the agency's were doing.

The Bundy's did it the wrong way but they got the media coverage and finally the States themselves to see what they can do to get control over the land in each of their States and maybe stop this abuse.

Okay, the Hages are not the Bundy's. Any claim that the situations are 100% the same would certainly need to be backed up...wouldn't you agree. I am not saying that it is not 100% the same situation, but I am saying I will leave at as a false equivalency without any evidence to the contrary. At that, I am not a lawyer, but if the situations were 100% the same, wouldn't legal precedence work in the favor of the Bundy's?

Either way, can someone go into detail as to the corruption and conspiracies...(legitimate).

The way I interpret it so far is that the Hage's were able to win their battle in court, but the Bundy's lost. If the Hages won and the Bundy's experienced the exact same situation, precedence would prevail. Did/ do the Hage's pay grazing fees?

But wait, the Bundy's have full control over their land, right?

No one has claimed that the situations are the same.
The outcome of the BLM is the same and that it to shut down cattle ranches in the western States.
Each an every one is different, the abuse of the agencies are also different.
They just decided to take his cattle without a court order.
A Judge has said it, how much more legitimate is that?
Combine it with all the others who were ran off along with all the other ranchers in all of the other western states.

The out come of it has been accomplished, whether it was wrong or right does not matter.
With the media coverage and people discussing it the States are finally looking into the matter.
We will see how it turns out in the future.

I personally know quite a few ranchers in Arizona and Colorado that were abused by the BLM in the 90's and they tried to get them shut down. Many were shut down, because they just could not afford to fight them.
Most of the people who are there at his Ranch protesting are the very ones who were abused by the BLM.

 

[Asclepias]

The feds work for us ya dumb ass. This is a case of libards (china basd solar farm lovers, and turtle lovers) against ranchers. Yeah you libtards are just hiding behind "fed" cover. Nothing new. Cowards never do their own dirty work, they hide behind brownshirts and contractors.

Thats right the feds work for us and not the ranchers. We say get off the land if you dont want to pay like everyone else.

You don't speak for me, Jerk.

No one cares what you say. Thats why Bundy will lose.

 

[RKMBrown]

I-Team: Bundy's 'ancestral rights' come under scrutiny - 8 News NOW

Bundy explained his "ancestral rights" to the I-Team."I've lived my lifetime here. My forefathers have been up and down the Virgin Valley here ever since 1877. All these rights that I claim, have been created through pre-emptive rights and beneficial use of the forage and the water and the access and range improvements," Bundy said.
Clark County property records show Cliven Bundy's parents moved from Bundyville, Arizona and bought the 160 acre ranch in 1948 from Raoul and Ruth Leavitt.

Budy's maternal grandparents, are John and Christena Jensen. They homesteaded right next to the land in question. Here is the friggin census data showing his grandparents as farmers on the land in question pre BLM:
http://www3.8newsnow.com/docs/2014/bundy/1940_mesquite.jpg

The Nevada State Constitution predates the Jensens. Bundy loses on all fronts.

Is this your OP? I'm linking to evidence that Bundy was not lying about his ancestors as per the accusation made in all the left wing talking point rags today.

 

[CaféAuLait]

I-Team: Bundy's 'ancestral rights' come under scrutiny - 8 News NOW

Bundy explained his "ancestral rights" to the I-Team."I've lived my lifetime here. My forefathers have been up and down the Virgin Valley here ever since 1877. All these rights that I claim, have been created through pre-emptive rights and beneficial use of the forage and the water and the access and range improvements," Bundy said.
Clark County property records show Cliven Bundy's parents moved from Bundyville, Arizona and bought the 160 acre ranch in 1948 from Raoul and Ruth Leavitt.

That's because he does not use his parents but great grandparents, I guess you never read or sat in the court room with him? Seems you are all about calling him a liar without the facts.

Look up Christena Jensen and Bodel Jensen...it's through those "forefathers" he claims it's his right.

 

[RKMBrown]

How where they run out of business? Just saying something about China and greenies doesn't prove a point to me. I need specifics. I am not looking it up myself because it is your argument and you are the one who says this justifies the Bundy's not paying grazing fees which is my principle issue.


And that was because of turtles? Do you have a link?


what law?


Again, I see no tyranny at this point and cannot understand why you are calling it so. I understand there is a lot to this 'issue'. I don't understand why one man's lawful debt to the US Government is tyranny and is a powder keg for an armed insurrection.

Troll.

LOL, really? I am a troll for asking you to defend your opinion? I really am open to understanding your point of view, but I am not going to agree with you just because you throw out unsubstantiated evidence. I guess you should go back to the flame fest style of debate, knee jerk reactions, and projecting!

There is nothing the matter with sticking to your guns, just be honest with me and yourself. I take it as far as we have different opinions, and I will gladly listen and remain open to any rational ideas. I can say that I am not firmly committed to one side or the other, but I am certainly leaning towards law and justice. I believe in civil disobedience and fighting the man as much as anyone else. But that fight has to be JUST and be able to stand up to scrutiny...otherwise, it is just anarchy.

Shouldn't your arguments be scrutinized or are people who try to understand just morons and trolls?

In this case you are just a lying troll claiming an inability to google the most widely reported story of the last two weeks. But hey, it's the libards against the cowboys, the cowboys must be crushed.

 

[jillian]

I-Team: Bundy's 'ancestral rights' come under scrutiny - 8 News NOW

Bundy explained his "ancestral rights" to the I-Team."I've lived my lifetime here. My forefathers have been up and down the Virgin Valley here ever since 1877. All these rights that I claim, have been created through pre-emptive rights and beneficial use of the forage and the water and the access and range improvements," Bundy said.
Clark County property records show Cliven Bundy's parents moved from Bundyville, Arizona and bought the 160 acre ranch in 1948 from Raoul and Ruth Leavitt.

That's because he does not use his parents but great grandparents, I guess you never read or sat in the court room with him? Seems you are all about calling him a liar without the facts.

Look up Christena Jensen and Bodel Jensen...it's through those "forefathers" he claims it's his right.

then his remedy, if he isn't a delusional, gubmint hating criminal, is to bring his claim to court.... not get a bunch of gun wielding thugs to try to threaten the government.

 

[Asclepias]

Budy's maternal grandparents, are John and Christena Jensen. They homesteaded right next to the land in question. Here is the friggin census data showing his grandparents as farmers on the land in question pre BLM:
http://www3.8newsnow.com/docs/2014/bundy/1940_mesquite.jpg

The Nevada State Constitution predates the Jensens. Bundy loses on all fronts.

Is this your OP? I'm linking to evidence that Bundy was not lying about his ancestors as per the accusation made in all the left wing talking point rags today.

Doesnt have to be my OP. The guy is a liar and a fraud. His ancestors being around does not give him title. Why would you pay fees to graze on the land your ancestors owned and gave to you if this was true. Think about it.

 

[JimH52]

The wing nuts will answer, but they need to get their guns on first....

 

[Nutz]

The Bundy's is not right. The Bundy's have done it the wrong way.
This is about corruption in the agencies.

said he found that “the government and the agents of the government in that locale( Gold Butte), sometime in the ’70s and ’80s, entered into a conspiracy, a literal, intentional conspiracy, to deprive the Hages and all of the Ranchers in that area of not only their permit grazing rights, for whatever reason, but also to deprive them of their vested property rights under the takings clause, and I find that that’s a sufficient basis to hold that there is irreparable harm if I don’t … restrain the government from continuing in that conduct.”

In fact, Judge Jones accused the federal bureaucrats of racketeering under the federal RICO (Racketeer Influenced and Corruption Organizations) statute, and accused them as well of extortion, mail fraud, and fraud, in an effort “to kill the business of Mr. Hage.”

They got rid of 53 other Ranchers and put them out of business. Only the Hage's and
Bundiy's remain plus a small amount of others.

The Hage's did it the right way and it took 30 years of court battles, but got no media coverage, nor any reports of the abuses the agency's were doing.

The Bundy's did it the wrong way but they got the media coverage and finally the States themselves to see what they can do to get control over the land in each of their States and maybe stop this abuse.

Okay, the Hages are not the Bundy's. Any claim that the situations are 100% the same would certainly need to be backed up...wouldn't you agree. I am not saying that it is not 100% the same situation, but I am saying I will leave at as a false equivalency without any evidence to the contrary. At that, I am not a lawyer, but if the situations were 100% the same, wouldn't legal precedence work in the favor of the Bundy's?

Either way, can someone go into detail as to the corruption and conspiracies...(legitimate).

The way I interpret it so far is that the Hage's were able to win their battle in court, but the Bundy's lost. If the Hages won and the Bundy's experienced the exact same situation, precedence would prevail. Did/ do the Hage's pay grazing fees?

But wait, the Bundy's have full control over their land, right?

Each an every one is different, the abuse of the agencies are also different.
They just decided to take their cattle without a court order.
A Judge has said it, how much more legitimate is that?
Combine it with all the others who were ran off along with all the other ranchers in all of the other western states.

The out come of it has been accomplished, whether it was wrong or right does not matter.
With the media coverage and people discussing it the States are finally looking into the matter.
We will see how it turns out in the future.

I personally know quite a few ranchers in Arizona and Colorado that were abused by the BLM in the 90's and they tried to get them shut down. Many were shut down, because they just could not afford to fight them.
Most of the people who are there at his Ranch protesting are the very ones who were abused by the BLM.

Why is/was the government trying to shut down ranches?

The judge said what he said, but again, why doesn't precedence act in favor of the Bundy's?

And the BLM didn't have a court order? I thought they did, if that is the case, I can agree with you...that is absuive. Even at that, that brand of abuse does not justify insurrection...does it?

 

[JakeStarkey]

You are not paying attn. or simply being obtuse then claiming you are not being obtuse. 60 of 61 ranchers were run out of business. One left.
Economies change. Businesses change. Rules change.

Get over it.

 

[JimH52]

I-Team: Bundy's 'ancestral rights' come under scrutiny - 8 News NOW

Bundy explained his "ancestral rights" to the I-Team."I've lived my lifetime here. My forefathers have been up and down the Virgin Valley here ever since 1877. All these rights that I claim, have been created through pre-emptive rights and beneficial use of the forage and the water and the access and range improvements," Bundy said.
Clark County property records show Cliven Bundy's parents moved from Bundyville, Arizona and bought the 160 acre ranch in 1948 from Raoul and Ruth Leavitt.

That's because he does not use his parents but great grandparents, I guess you never read or sat in the court room with him? Seems you are all about calling him a liar without the facts.

Look up Christena Jensen and Bodel Jensen...it's through those "forefathers" he claims it's his right.

then his remedy, if he isn't a delusional, gubmint hating criminal, is to bring his claim to court.... not get a bunch of gun wielding thugs to try to threaten the government.

Mu understanding is he has been to court and lost. He is now relying on FOX and the gullible RWers.

 

[Nutz]

Troll.

LOL, really? I am a troll for asking you to defend your opinion? I really am open to understanding your point of view, but I am not going to agree with you just because you throw out unsubstantiated evidence. I guess you should go back to the flame fest style of debate, knee jerk reactions, and projecting!

There is nothing the matter with sticking to your guns, just be honest with me and yourself. I take it as far as we have different opinions, and I will gladly listen and remain open to any rational ideas. I can say that I am not firmly committed to one side or the other, but I am certainly leaning towards law and justice. I believe in civil disobedience and fighting the man as much as anyone else. But that fight has to be JUST and be able to stand up to scrutiny...otherwise, it is just anarchy.

Shouldn't your arguments be scrutinized or are people who try to understand just morons and trolls?

In this case you are just a lying troll claiming an inability to google the most widely reported story of the last two weeks. But hey, it's the libards against the cowboys, the cowboys must be crushed.

Why would I spend the time to Google your argument? Yes, it has been reported a lot in the last two weeks...oddly enough, more and more facts (ideas) come out everyday. The 'facts' tend to contradict themselves depending on what website you choose to frequent.

 

[Asclepias]

The guy is frankly a liar.

Although no Bundys lived in Bunkerville in 1930 or 1940, according to Census records for those years, Cliven Bundy’s mother Bodel and her parents, John and Christena Jensen, lived in neighboring Mesquite in the early 20th Century.

Wouldn't that mean in the 1900's

 

[peach174]

I-Team: Bundy's 'ancestral rights' come under scrutiny - 8 News NOW

Bundy explained his "ancestral rights" to the I-Team."I've lived my lifetime here. My forefathers have been up and down the Virgin Valley here ever since 1877. All these rights that I claim, have been created through pre-emptive rights and beneficial use of the forage and the water and the access and range improvements," Bundy said.
Clark County property records show Cliven Bundy's parents moved from Bundyville, Arizona and bought the 160 acre ranch in 1948 from Raoul and Ruth Leavitt.

That's because he does not use his parents but great grandparents, I guess you never read or sat in the court room with him? Seems you are all about calling him a liar without the facts.

Look up Christena Jensen and Bodel Jensen...it's through those "forefathers" he claims it's his right.

then his remedy, if he isn't a delusional, gubmint hating criminal, is to bring his claim to court.... not get a bunch of gun wielding thugs to try to threaten the government.

Bundy has said repeatedly on many different TV and radio interviews that he did not want any arms there.
The Militia's showed up anyway.

 

[RKMBrown]

LOL, really? I am a troll for asking you to defend your opinion? I really am open to understanding your point of view, but I am not going to agree with you just because you throw out unsubstantiated evidence. I guess you should go back to the flame fest style of debate, knee jerk reactions, and projecting!

There is nothing the matter with sticking to your guns, just be honest with me and yourself. I take it as far as we have different opinions, and I will gladly listen and remain open to any rational ideas. I can say that I am not firmly committed to one side or the other, but I am certainly leaning towards law and justice. I believe in civil disobedience and fighting the man as much as anyone else. But that fight has to be JUST and be able to stand up to scrutiny...otherwise, it is just anarchy.

Shouldn't your arguments be scrutinized or are people who try to understand just morons and trolls?

In this case you are just a lying troll claiming an inability to google the most widely reported story of the last two weeks. But hey, it's the libards against the cowboys, the cowboys must be crushed.

Why would I spend the time to Google your argument? Yes, it has been reported a lot in the last two weeks...oddly enough, more and more facts (ideas) come out everyday. The 'facts' tend to contradict themselves depending on what website you choose to frequent.

Christ, what the hell is wrong with you libs?

 

[Asclepias]

That's because he does not use his parents but great grandparents, I guess you never read or sat in the court room with him? Seems you are all about calling him a liar without the facts.

Look up Christena Jensen and Bodel Jensen...it's through those "forefathers" he claims it's his right.

then his remedy, if he isn't a delusional, gubmint hating criminal, is to bring his claim to court.... not get a bunch of gun wielding thugs to try to threaten the government.

Bundy has said repeatedly on many different TV and radio interviews that he did not want any arms there.
The Militia's showed up anyway.

He also claimed he has rights to the land. He lied about that. What would make you think he wasnt lying about not wanting the militias there?

 

[Statistikhengst]

The Feds had an injunction and declarative relief since the Judge's decision and order in early 2013.

Under that order, they were lawfully authorized to seize the damn cattle.

I have looked at the various papers and the replies, etc. I am not at all sure that if WE had done the same thing, we would have reached a different conclusion than the judge.

Still, if there is an appeal remaining (one that has been or can yet be filed in a timely fashion), it seems a bit rash of the Federal Government to act as it did.

That said, as much as my political preferences would normally gravitate toward team Bundy, I am not buying his "arguments." And I am really displeased that at the same time that he is denying the legitimacy of the U.S. government, he is using their court system. He would be more than happy to stand on the judge's ruling if it went in his favor, no doubt. But when the judge rules AGAINST him after all these years, he doesn't even accept the legitimacy of the judiciary?

This case is sickening from either angle.

It is, because it shows a truly sick form of paranoia that distracts us when things happen where we really should be maybe a little paranoid.

As far as the rash stuff, I am not sure what you are referring to: the feds taking his cattle, giving the cattle back, or the injunctions overall...

But your post was so excellent, I will be pos repping you for this, guaranteed. Good stuff, good stuff.

 

[paperview]

I-Team: Bundy's 'ancestral rights' come under scrutiny - 8 News NOW

Bundy explained his "ancestral rights" to the I-Team."I've lived my lifetime here. My forefathers have been up and down the Virgin Valley here ever since 1877. All these rights that I claim, have been created through pre-emptive rights and beneficial use of the forage and the water and the access and range improvements," Bundy said.
Clark County property records show Cliven Bundy's parents moved from Bundyville, Arizona and bought the 160 acre ranch in 1948 from Raoul and Ruth Leavitt.

Budy's maternal grandparents, are John and Christena Jensen. They homesteaded right next to the land in question. Here is the friggin census data showing his grandparents as farmers on the land in question pre BLM:
http://www3.8newsnow.com/docs/2014/bundy/1940_mesquite.jpg

The Nevada State Constitution predates the Jensens. Bundy loses on all fronts.

And something from that Nevada Constitution some here might like to read:

Article 1, Section 2 of the Nevada Constitution:

All political power is inherent in the people. Government is instituted for the protection, security and benefit of the people; and they have the right to alter or reform the same whenever the public good may require it.


But the Paramount Allegiance of every citizen is due to the Federal Government in the exercise of all its Constitutional powers as the same have been or may be defined by the Supreme Court of the United States;



and no power exists in the people of this or any other State of the Federal Union to dissolve their connection therewith or perform any act tending to impair, subvert, or resist the Supreme Authority of the government of the United States.

The Constitution of the United States confers full power on the Federal Government to maintain and Perpetuate its existence, and whensoever any portion of the States, or people thereof attempt to secede from the Federal Union, or forcibly resist the Execution of its laws, the Federal Government may, by warrant of the Constitution, employ armed force in compelling obedience to its Authority.
​

So he doesn't recognize the Federal Government, and is even at odds with his own state laws in his State Constitution.

 

[CaféAuLait]

That's because he does not use his parents but great grandparents, I guess you never read or sat in the court room with him? Seems you are all about calling him a liar without the facts.

Look up Christena Jensen and Bodel Jensen...it's through those "forefathers" he claims it's his right.

then his remedy, if he isn't a delusional, gubmint hating criminal, is to bring his claim to court.... not get a bunch of gun wielding thugs to try to threaten the government.

Mu understanding is he has been to court and lost. He is now relying on FOX and the gullible RWers.

He has, so has Raymond Yowell and the Dann sisters.