Bush and Officials Lied leading up to Iraq war

[mattskramer]

I'll not disagree with your interpretation, if its your position not to allow the speaker some leeway in parsing the quote, thats within your rights .....so lets look closer, at the exact words and parse away........

Bush's exact words....................

"Intelligence gathered by this and other governments leaves no doubt that the Iraq regime continues to possess and conceal some of the most lethal weapons ever devised."

So what is Bush saying here....? Is it really WHO has or has not doubt....
What leaves no doubt?.....the intelligence gathered ?

The NIE report shows just that....but it doesn't speak to other governments.....Bush is saying that our intell leaves no doubt and the NIE report says Iraq HAS....not might have, could have or will have....

So why not take his words exactly as stated.....

"Intelligence gathered by this and other governments leaves no doubt.....

Read the NIE report and that is true..the report doesn't have qualifers or caveats......that covers our intell...
Neither of us can know what 'other governments' intell said, or how their conclusions were worded......ergo....Bush is not lying....

Okay. Has Bush read or heard nothing else concerning the allegations of WMD? I would think that before someone makes such a conclusive global statement, he would have asked for and received second opinions. Is the summary of the NIE the only thing that intelligence agencies have presented to Bush? Was everyone in all intelligence branches in complete agreement? Has Bush read anything else that intelligence from this or other governments had available?

Okay. Perhaps Bush was lazy and foolish enough to only read a summary statement – one page of one report – and base his superlative statement on that. Okay. In that case, he was lazy and foolish but I can’t say that he lied. Still, I doubt that Bush relied just on one paper. I think that he did hear or read from other people in the intelligence communities and ignored them – but I have no proof of it.

Of course we know the conclusions reached by intelligence from other nations. They conclude that there were, without a doubt, WMD. Otherwise, Bush would have lied, for he said “Intelligence gathered by this and other governments leaves no doubt”

 

[Alpha1]

Okay. Has Bush read or heard nothing else concerning the allegations of WMD? I would think that before someone makes such a conclusive global statement, he would have asked for and received second opinions.
I don't think its a global statement at all...he says 'our intell leaves no doubt' and intell from other governments...and that NIE report proves that..and we aren't privy to what other nations intell he might mean....


Is the summary of the NIE the only thing that intelligence agencies have presented to Bush?
He mentions intell from other governments...so obviously no
Was everyone in all intelligence branches in complete agreement? Has Bush read anything else that intelligence from this or other governments had available?
The NIE is made up of 16 different agencys and they as a group agree to the conclusions
Okay. Perhaps Bush was lazy and foolish enough to only read a summary statement – one page of one report – and base his superlative statement on that.
Really now...do you expect he or any president would read the thousands of pages that 16 groups have compiled?
Okay. In that case, he was lazy and foolish but I can’t say that he lied. Still, I doubt that Bush relied just on one paper. I think that he did hear or read from other people in the intelligence communities and ignored them – but I have no proof of it.

Of course we know the conclusions reached by intelligence from other nations. They conclude that there were, without a doubt, WMD. Otherwise, Bush would have lied, for he said “Intelligence gathered by this and other governments leaves no doubt”

Actually...not knowing what the other nations intell provided or how their conclusions were presented....that is the one thing where Bush could have been lying.. what other governments provided him before the war...

Maybe we've all been reading this Bush quote in the wrong light....

 

[Alpha1]

Thanks for a civil discussion.....later

 

[maineman]

Actually...not knowing what the other nations intell provided or how their conclusions were presented....that is the one thing where Bush could have been lying.. what other governments provided him before the war...

Maybe we've all been reading this Bush quote in the wrong light....

so..you are saying that, in none of the intelligence from US intelligence agencies, they were any caveats and qualifiers that provided ANY doubt about Saddam's WMD stockpiles?

 

[Alpha1]

so..you are saying that, in none of the intelligence from US intelligence agencies, they were any caveats and qualifiers that provided ANY doubt about Saddam's WMD stockpiles?

Thats obviously not what I'm saying....assuming you mean me...

The NIE conclusions,( based on the intell from 16 different US agencys,)has no caveats.....when it concludes----------

"We judge that Iraq has continued its weapons of mass destruction (WMD) programs in defiance of UN resolutions and restrictions. Baghdad has chemical and biological weapons as well as missiles with ranges in excess of UN restrictions; if left unchecked, it probably will have a nuclear weapon during this decade."

That conclusion alone provides certainty from at least the combined resources of the 16 agencys that co-operate to produce the NIE report, they are certain and have reported that certainty to Bush.....
-----------------------------------------

And Bush is not claiming....that everyone expressed no doubt ...or that no doubt existed in the entire world.... he is plainly expressing that some specific intell gathered by this and other governments leaves no doubt....as is plainly stated by the NIE report and its 16 intell agencys.....

"Intelligence gathered by this and other governments leaves no doubt

..... Bush didn't identify the NIE report by name nor exactly what other governments lead him to say what he said....

If in fact doubt did exist somewhere ? So what...? Bush is not making that claim in the first place....as you insist he was....

 

[Alpha1]

And you can go a step further.....

Even IF there were other intell reports that expressed doubt....so what again...

Bush's exact words....................

"Intelligence gathered by this and other governments leaves no doubt that the Iraq regime continues to possess and conceal some of the most lethal weapons ever devised."

The NIE report of 10/02 in particular, confirms this as fact, at lease about intell gathered by this government......THIS intell leaves no doubt.....so at the very least...this NIE report proves Bush correct....

 

[maineman]

And you can go a step further.....

Even IF there were other intell reports that expressed doubt....so what again...

Bush's exact words....................

"Intelligence gathered by this and other governments leaves no doubt that the Iraq regime continues to possess and conceal some of the most lethal weapons ever devised."

The NIE report of 10/02 in particular, confirms this as fact, at lease about intell gathered by this government......THIS intell leaves no doubt.....so at the very least...this NIE report proves Bush correct....

He does not refer specifically to the 10/02 NIE.... He had access to and was briefed on much more detailed intelligence than was contained in one estimate. As I have said.... many analysts have come forward and all relate similar stories: that the Bush administration was provided with a great deal of intelligence that contained doubt...contained uncertainty... and Bush chose to ignore it...but beyond that, he chose to convey the false impression to the American people that it did not even exist. And this wasn't just one statement by Bush, but a cacaphony of false impressions by Rummy and Condi and Shooter and Hadley and Feith.... over and over again... no doubt...absolute certainty...not only did we KNOW he had them, we even knew where they were.... over and over....
combined with the directly implied 9/11 and AQ connections.... all part of the rush to war. misleading America into a war that did not need to be fought but which Bush wanted to fight.

 

[mattskramer]

And you can go a step further.....

Even IF there were other intell reports that expressed doubt....so what again...

Bush's exact words....................

"Intelligence gathered by this and other governments leaves no doubt that the Iraq regime continues to possess and conceal some of the most lethal weapons ever devised."

The NIE report of 10/02 in particular, confirms this as fact, at lease about intell gathered by this government......THIS intell leaves no doubt.....so at the very least...this NIE report proves Bush correct....

I’m walking away from this debate. If you want to declare yourself the winner, so be it. Interpret Bush’s message as you see fit. I can’t prove that he lied. There is mo way to know if he saw other information and ignored it when he made his statement. I still contend that he either lied or was foolish to not look at a wide variety of resources. There are certainly some items to support the notion that there might not have been WMD. If Bush looked around and saw things from different perspectives, then he would have seen them. If he didn’t consider the other side, but just grabbed what he had and pushed us into war, then it is just another example of his being a unilateral cowboy with an itchy trigger finger.

 

[maineman]

I’m walking away from this debate. If you want to declare yourself the winner, so be it. Interpret Bush’s message as you see fit. I can’t prove that he lied. There is mo way to know if he saw other information and ignored it when he made his statement. I still contend that he either lied or was foolish to not look at a wide variety of resources. There are certainly some items to support the notion that there might not have been WMD. If Bush looked around and saw things from different perspectives, then he would have seen them. If he didn’t consider the other side, but just grabbed what he had and pushed us into war, then it is just another example of his being a unilateral cowboy with an itchy trigger finger.

I agree Matt. Discussions with Alpha have always been circular in nature. I'm out too....

I believe Bush knew of doubt...I believe he portrayed an absence of doubt...I believe he and his team attempted to connect Saddam and AQ and implied that connection existed prior to 9/11. History will judge him. I, for one, only hope that I outlive him so that I can go piss on his grave. I have no need to convince Bush lovers...they will never admit their boy did anything wrong.

 

[Alpha1]

He does not refer specifically to the 10/02 NIE.... He had access to and was briefed on much more detailed intelligence than was contained in one estimate. As I have said.... many analysts have come forward and all relate similar stories: that the Bush administration was provided with a great deal of intelligence that contained doubt...contained uncertainty... and Bush chose to ignore it...but beyond that, he chose to convey the false impression to the American people that it did not even exist. And this wasn't just one statement by Bush, but a cacaphony of false impressions by Rummy and Condi and Shooter and Hadley and Feith.... over and over again... no doubt...absolute certainty...not only did we KNOW he had them, we even knew where they were.... over and over....
combined with the directly implied 9/11 and AQ connections.... all part of the rush to war. misleading America into a war that did not need to be fought but which Bush wanted to fight.

And I contend, its irrelevant what individual analysts have said.....or even if one or two agencys expressed reservations about Saddam.....
The NIE consists of 16 different agencys that pool their intell...analyze the shit out of it as a group and arrived at a consensus....
The Pres. doesn't get 16 different conclusions...he gets the result of stiring together all 16 with a best estimate.....and this particular NIE conclusion of 10/02 makes his claim true and correct.....

I QUOTE:
"Intelligence gathered by this and other governments leaves no doubt that the Iraq regime continues to possess and conceal some of the most lethal weapons ever devised."

Now, is the 10/02 NIE report, intelligence gathered by this government? YES
Does this report clearly state that Saddam HAS WMD..? YES
Can we debate what other governments revealed to Bush with any accuracy.....NO
Can we believe that at least some other governments agreed with the NIE.? YES
Does it matter even if some governments expressed doubt ? NO


ergo.....BUSH DID NOT LIE.....

Bush's quote is limited in scope....it makes a specific claim....



This is not about Rummy and Condi and Shooter and Hadley and Feith.....its about Bush.....

 

[RetiredGySgt]

And I contend, its irrelevant what individual analysts have said.....or even if one or two agencys expressed reservations about Saddam.....
The NIE consists of 16 different agencys that pool their intell...analyze the shit out of it as a group and arrived at a consensus....
The Pres. doesn't get 16 different conclusions...he gets the result of stiring together all 16 with a best estimate.....and this particular NIE conclusion of 10/02 makes his claim true and correct.....

I QUOTE:
"Intelligence gathered by this and other governments leaves no doubt that the Iraq regime continues to possess and conceal some of the most lethal weapons ever devised."

Now, is the 10/02 NIE report, intelligence gathered by this government? YES
Does this report clearly state that Saddam HAS WMD..? YES
Can we debate what other governments revealed to Bush with any accuracy.....NO
Can we believe that at least some other governments agreed with the NIE.? YES
Does it matter even if some governments expressed doubt ? NO


ergo.....BUSH DID NOT LIE.....

Bush's quote is limited in scope....it makes a specific claim....

Except idealogics like maineman do NOT care about facts or reality, it is all about political back biting because Clinton was impeached. Mainemena keeps making a claim that is patently false and stating he knows with out EVER providing a single actual link to some source.

Further he insists even though Bush qualified his Statement that it is global and all encompassing of every living person that may have had a doubt some where in the world.

You nor I will ever get him to admit he is wrong. But his own criteria make his statement a lie.

 

[mattskramer]

I agree Matt. Discussions with Alpha have always been circular in nature. I'm out too....

I believe Bush knew of doubt...I believe he portrayed an absence of doubt...I believe he and his team attempted to connect Saddam and AQ and implied that connection existed prior to 9/11. History will judge him. I, for one, only hope that I outlive him so that I can go piss on his grave. I have no need to convince Bush lovers...they will never admit their boy did anything wrong.

I’m not a fan of cruel hyperbole – as you may have gathered from my comments criticizing Ann Coulter. Anyway, I think that I can sense your bitterness but I wouldn’t go that far. Don’t let your anger toward him damage your health while you wait for a day that might not arrive.

 

[DeadCanDance]

I agree Matt. Discussions with Alpha have always been circular in nature. I'm out too....

I believe Bush knew of doubt...I believe he portrayed an absence of doubt...I believe he and his team attempted to connect Saddam and AQ and implied that connection existed prior to 9/11. History will judge him. I, for one, only hope that I outlive him so that I can go piss on his grave. I have no need to convince Bush lovers...they will never admit their boy did anything wrong.

Amen.

PS: Cheney was saying there was "no doubt" well before the NIE was even put together. So, the laying the blame on the NIE is a diversion.

 

[maineman]

I’m not a fan of cruel hyperbole – as you may have gathered from my comments criticizing Ann Coulter. Anyway, I think that I can sense your bitterness but I wouldn’t go that far. Don’t let your anger toward him damage your health while you wait for a day that might not arrive.

Thanks for the good advice...I tell you what: I won't make a special trip to find his final resting place...but if I ever happen to be in the area, and have a full bladder, I know where I'm heading. fair enough?

 

[maineman]

Except idealogics like maineman do NOT care about facts or reality, it is all about political back biting because Clinton was impeached. Mainemena keeps making a claim that is patently false and stating he knows with out EVER providing a single actual link to some source.

Further he insists even though Bush qualified his Statement that it is global and all encompassing of every living person that may have had a doubt some where in the world.

You nor I will ever get him to admit he is wrong. But his own criteria make his statement a lie.

It has nothing to do with Clinton's impeachment - for me anyway.... and my claim is not patently false.... it is merely one you don't chose to entertain. ANd I have never insisted that the doubt involved needed to include every living person.... simply the skilled analysts of his own intelligence agencies.

And your finaly statement is, of course, inaccurate. I have not made any statements that were served to convey a false impression.

 

[RetiredGySgt]

It has nothing to do with Clinton's impeachment - for me anyway.... and my claim is not patently false.... it is merely one you don't chose to entertain. ANd I have never insisted that the doubt involved needed to include every living person.... simply the skilled analysts of his own intelligence agencies.

And your finaly statement is, of course, inaccurate. I have not made any statements that were served to convey a false impression.

Yes you have, we HAVE the NIE, the very document that briefs the President on JUST this and what does it say? Provide that doubt you keep claiming. THERE IS NONE IN THAT REPORT. Further he did not say every Government agreed with him, he just said that other givernments agreed, no statement of all or even a majority.

Every Agency works together to produce the report we have that STATES Iraq has WMD's, NO DOUBT, NO Caveats. NONE.

 

[Alpha1]

Amen.

PS: Cheney was saying there was "no doubt" well before the NIE was even put together. So, the laying the blame on the NIE is a diversion.

Well...if the debate was about Cheney, it would be a different ball game....but alas....its not about Cheney...its about the unproveable claim that BUSH LIED...
and reading the Bush quote should make that plain.....

 

[DeadCanDance]

Well...if the debate was about Cheney, it would be a different ball game....but alas....its not about Cheney...its about the unproveable claim that BUSH LIED...
and reading the Bush quote should make that plain.....

Cheney speaks for Bush. He's not some rogue, independent politician.

 

[jillian]

Well...if the debate was about Cheney, it would be a different ball game....but alas....its not about Cheney...its about the unproveable claim that BUSH LIED...
and reading the Bush quote should make that plain.....

Cheney was his pitbull. And I'm actually not sure that he wasn't cheney's puppet. But do you think for a second that Cheney spoke unauthorized?

 

[DeadCanDance]

Cheney was his pitbull. And I'm actually not sure that he wasn't cheney's puppet. But do you think for a second that Cheney spoke unauthorized?

COLIN POWELL, February 2002: there is no doubt that Iraq is pursuing a nuclear weapons program.

COLIN POWELL, September 2002: there's no question that he has these (WMD) weapons, but even more importantly, he is striving to do even more, to get even more.

DICK CHENEY, August 2002: "Simply stated, there is no doubt that Saddam Hussein now has weapons of mass destruction. There is no doubt that he is amassing them to use against our friends, against our allies, and against us.

http://www.publicintegrity.org/WarCard/Search/Default.aspx


These are all BEFORE the NIE was even put together. And they're lies.