...but wait! I thought if I liked my plan I could keep my plan?!

[Andylusion]

I don't think you have any kind of plan, but I do realize that no one on the Right does.

I just told you my plan: remove all restrictions on health care practitioners, all health care schools,, all health care insurers, and all medicine manufacturers. That's my plan, so please stop saying I don't have a plan, because that's a lie.

That's not nearly enough detail for someone who understands the health care/health insurance system, not even close.

I have given you all the details you need to implement it. Repeal all restrictions on health care practitioners, all health care schools,, all health care insurers, and all medicine manufacturers. What details don't you understand?

Oh, and like I said before, eliminate all government involvement in medical payments.

Do you not understand how to implement what I said?

Sure. Just get rid of everything. But I see no indication that you have given thought to a wide variety of critical issues.

Tell you what. I know you won't like this plan, but this is what I'm talking about when I say "specifics". This is the level of detail I would need to consider any plan. Just tell me how your plan addresses the same isssues:

Ol' Mac's Health Care Act of 2016

Based on what I think would be obvious:

• It is insane to have seven (7) different health care delivery/payment systems, none of which talk to each other. Talk about inefficient.
• Early and regular preventive/diagnostic/drug coverage before conditions get worse saves significant health care dollars
  
• A healthier populace is good, smart economics.
• Allowing insurance companies to compete for business by creating and offering attractive upgrades is good, smart economics.
• Freeing employers from costs and regulations of providing health coverage is good, smart economics.
• Opening the door to the industry that specializes in preventive/diagnostic services, motivating these clinics to pop up faster than Starbucks™, is good, smart economics.

So:

...Scrap this insane, archaic seven-piece system (Individual, Group, VA, Medicare, Medicaid, Worker's Comp indigent) for one two-tier plan for all
...Tort reform that addresses not only the cost of malpractice insurance, but the even higher cost of preventive medicine
...A two-tier, portable, individual health care system based on the current Medicare/Medicare Supplement/Medicare Advantage chassis:
...Strong preventive/diagnostic/drug coverage for all to detect problems earlier and keep them from appearing in the first place
...Adoption of Value-Based Insurance Design, VBID, look it up
...Basic medical/hospital coverage at 80% of system rates as a foundation for everyone
...Open up a massive, 330 million person customer base to insurance companies via Medicare Supplements and Medicare Advantage plans
...Take a huge administrative monkey off the backs of private insurance companies by eliminating most basic care coverage
...Allow insurance companies to choose between national coverage or state-by-state
...Allow insurance companies to negotiate provider contracts to keep reimbursement acceptable for doctors and hospitals
...Maintain a significant and critical free market competition environment through the supplemental plans
...Watch preventive/diagnostic clinics spring up faster than Starbucks, decreasing the load on doctors and ER's
...Assistance on supplemental plans for low income, assuring even more business to competition-based private insurance companies
...Calculate net costs and add to current Medicare Tax - while freeing businesses and employees from the massive costs & regulations of group plans

Run it for two years and look for tweaks.

Yes, get rid of all government medical payment plans, all restrictions on medical providers, all restrictions on medicine producers, and all restrictions on medical education institutions.

If you don't understand what any of those recommendations means, please let me know, and I'll try to explain using small words.

Well to be fair... most people have absolutely no idea just how much government controls every single aspect of the entire system. It's not that they don't understand the concept of "all restrictions on medical providers".... what they don't realize is just how many hundreds of pages of regulations cover everything from the sale of a single IV machine, to the simplest tools like selling a needle.

People just have no concept at all, of just how much every single conceivable aspect of the health care system is regulated and controlled.

 

[Centinel]

I just told you my plan: remove all restrictions on health care practitioners, all health care schools,, all health care insurers, and all medicine manufacturers. That's my plan, so please stop saying I don't have a plan, because that's a lie.

That's not nearly enough detail for someone who understands the health care/health insurance system, not even close.

I have given you all the details you need to implement it. Repeal all restrictions on health care practitioners, all health care schools,, all health care insurers, and all medicine manufacturers. What details don't you understand?

Oh, and like I said before, eliminate all government involvement in medical payments.

Do you not understand how to implement what I said?

Sure. Just get rid of everything. But I see no indication that you have given thought to a wide variety of critical issues.

Tell you what. I know you won't like this plan, but this is what I'm talking about when I say "specifics". This is the level of detail I would need to consider any plan. Just tell me how your plan addresses the same isssues:

Ol' Mac's Health Care Act of 2016

Based on what I think would be obvious:

• It is insane to have seven (7) different health care delivery/payment systems, none of which talk to each other. Talk about inefficient.
• Early and regular preventive/diagnostic/drug coverage before conditions get worse saves significant health care dollars
  
• A healthier populace is good, smart economics.
• Allowing insurance companies to compete for business by creating and offering attractive upgrades is good, smart economics.
• Freeing employers from costs and regulations of providing health coverage is good, smart economics.
• Opening the door to the industry that specializes in preventive/diagnostic services, motivating these clinics to pop up faster than Starbucks™, is good, smart economics.

So:

...Scrap this insane, archaic seven-piece system (Individual, Group, VA, Medicare, Medicaid, Worker's Comp indigent) for one two-tier plan for all
...Tort reform that addresses not only the cost of malpractice insurance, but the even higher cost of preventive medicine
...A two-tier, portable, individual health care system based on the current Medicare/Medicare Supplement/Medicare Advantage chassis:
...Strong preventive/diagnostic/drug coverage for all to detect problems earlier and keep them from appearing in the first place
...Adoption of Value-Based Insurance Design, VBID, look it up
...Basic medical/hospital coverage at 80% of system rates as a foundation for everyone
...Open up a massive, 330 million person customer base to insurance companies via Medicare Supplements and Medicare Advantage plans
...Take a huge administrative monkey off the backs of private insurance companies by eliminating most basic care coverage
...Allow insurance companies to choose between national coverage or state-by-state
...Allow insurance companies to negotiate provider contracts to keep reimbursement acceptable for doctors and hospitals
...Maintain a significant and critical free market competition environment through the supplemental plans
...Watch preventive/diagnostic clinics spring up faster than Starbucks, decreasing the load on doctors and ER's
...Assistance on supplemental plans for low income, assuring even more business to competition-based private insurance companies
...Calculate net costs and add to current Medicare Tax - while freeing businesses and employees from the massive costs & regulations of group plans

Run it for two years and look for tweaks.

Yes, get rid of all government medical payment plans, all restrictions on medical providers, all restrictions on medicine producers, and all restrictions on medical education institutions.

If you don't understand what any of those recommendations means, please let me know, and I'll try to explain using small words.

Well to be fair... most people have absolutely no idea just how much government controls every single aspect of the entire system. It's not that they don't understand the concept of "all restrictions on medical providers".... what they don't realize is just how many hundreds of pages of regulations cover everything from the sale of a single IV machine, to the simplest tools like selling a needle.

People just have no concept at all, of just how much every single conceivable aspect of the health care system is regulated and controlled.

I agree. Most people have no idea how impactful the idea of "eliminate all restrictions on medical providers" actually is. And then throw in medical schools and medicine providers, and the ramifications are earth shattering.

 

[Eaglewings]

And after all this, we still have seven (7) separate delivery/payment systems that don't communicate directly with each other:

1. ACA/Individual
   
2. Group
3. VA
4. Medicare
5. Medicaid
6. Worker's Comp
7. Indigent

Very impressive, both parties should be so proud.
.

Whom would you define as "indigent" and not covered by Medicaid?

Illegals and Americans who don't qualify for Medicaid but still don't have individual coverage. There's plenty of them.
.

Isn't the Official RW stance that "all illegals have Obamacare"? And who would be below the poverty line and not eligible for Medicaid?

Love to see some actual statistics for all of that, but I suspect it's just the Usual Talking Points.

Illegals can not get insurance , or obamacare...They clog up the emergency rooms and jack up our medical cost.

 

[Centinel]

Okay, how will they have access to plentiful, affordable, and competitive health care?

Go ahead and get specific, I know the industry pretty well, both insurance and provider sides.

It is government restrictions that make healthcare unaffordable.

Socialism never yields better results than capitalism.

Specifically, we could have more doctors, nurses and techs; more hospitals; more medicines, less expensive than they are now.

JakeStarkey, you indicated that you consider this funny. What's funny about it?

 

[Andylusion]

And after all this, we still have seven (7) separate delivery/payment systems that don't communicate directly with each other:

1. ACA/Individual
   
2. Group
3. VA
4. Medicare
5. Medicaid
6. Worker's Comp
7. Indigent

Very impressive, both parties should be so proud.
.

Whom would you define as "indigent" and not covered by Medicaid?

Illegals and Americans who don't qualify for Medicaid but still don't have individual coverage. There's plenty of them.
.

Isn't the Official RW stance that "all illegals have Obamacare"? And who would be below the poverty line and not eligible for Medicaid?

Love to see some actual statistics for all of that, but I suspect it's just the Usual Talking Points.

Illegals can not get insurance , or obamacare...They clog up the emergency rooms and jack up our medical cost.

This is another odd claim to me.

If they could get Obamacare.... they would jack up our medical costs. Who do you think is paying for it, when they get subsidized health care?

If they get health insurance, you are still paying for them. Every time the insurance company pays out, they charge you higher premiums. Unless you have a private plan. But most don't.

 

[jillian]

it doesn't [require you to have a plan], but you pay a fine for not being insured, unless you qualify for free insurance so the rest of us are paying your premiums. call it a fine or a tax, either way its a penalty for not buying something the government has ordered you to buy.

And? Also hospital bills can't collect on bankruptcy relief that eliminates such bills. Norway is an excellent example, because it is true.

beta male, I am filing this away for the next time you use the mass murder in Norway as an excuse for arguing about gun rights here.

omega shemale, I am filing this away to shove up your metrosexual ass when Trump becomes president and Hillary goes to prison.

Is it really possible for a shemale to be metrosexual? Aren't they kinda mutually exclusive?

i used to think hate-filled bigots had gone the way of the dodo.

thanks for dissuading me.

 

[BluesLegend]

Obamacare forced young healthy people to subsidize my healthcare costs by purchasing way more insurance than they need. Considering my income I guess I feel a bit guilty over that but hey they voted the fool into office.

 

[Eaglewings]

The Big Pharma and insurance companies are richer than ever... They are the ones behind the lies about Obamacare and people believe it..They need their annual marks ups to pay for their yaughts.

We need a complete overhaul to end the corruption, but that will never happen.

Obamacare may not be perfect , but it is a start to help the people.

Well, there is a wealth in health, the 18 Richest People In Medicine
18 Richest Health Care Billionaires In America: Medical moguls 2014 » CEOWORLD Magazine
.

There is no "complete overhaul" that is going to change this outcome.

Regulations inherently, by their very nature, benefit the rich. Doesn't matter what regulations you put in place, the rich will benefit from them.

If the administration put in place a regulation that actually harmed the rich, the rich would close down their companies, and leave. If that happened, and millions of people were left without insurance, because all the insurance companies closed, that would both be terrible for everyone, cause havoc in the economy, but it would also destroy the politicians who pushed the regulation.

So they will never do that.

Thus any regulation passed, no matter what that regulation is, or who came up with it, or for what purpose.... it will never harm the super rich. It won't ever happen.

However, they will pass regulations that cost companies tons of money to meet. That action inherently benefits the rich, no matter what the intention is.

Here's how. Me and you, run insurance companies. You have a small started up company, with a few hundred clients, and you pull down $150,000 a year. I have a major insurance company covering a hundred cities, with a million clients, and I make a billion dollars a year.

The government passes a new massive regulation, that will cost us both a million dollars to implement, and get approval.

Which of us is able to spend the money needed to meet those regulations? I can easily. Billion dollars a year, I can implement those regulations no problem. You on the other hand, that may bankrupt your little company. Instead you are likely to show up at my front door, and ask if I'd like to buy you out. Which of course I do. Now even with the expensive regulations, because I have more customers and less competition, I make hundreds of billions more money.

This is the flaw in your thinking, that I've seen hundreds of times.

You, or those like you, push for massive regulations over whatever. Then after those massive regulations are passed, you see that the big wealthy companies are making massive more profits. Thus you assume that since the regulations didn't prevent the profits, that there must be some sort of corruption involved.

In realty, there is rarely corruption, but rather it is simply the normal result of government legislation.

Why do you think McDonald's CEO said he supported a $15/hour minimum wage? Do you really think such a regulation would harm McDonald's that the CEO would support it?

It's because McDonald's executives know that they have the money and capital, to replace workers with Kiosks and automation.

You know who can't replace their employees with kiosks? All of their competition. The small mom&pop shops. The tiny store chains.

So those people will go out of business, and McDonald's will gain an ever increasing share of the market, making hundreds of billions more, than they are now.

Regulations by their very nature...... inherently benefit the rich.

Doctors are bound by and signed a law and ethics agreement to only go by what the FDA approves.

The FDA is Fucking us.

Buying from other countries is illegal...and that is fucked up too. Why do you think this is ok?

We need regulations that will help the people not the BIG Pharma and FDA. of coarse Congress is helping them for $$$$.

-- Gleevec (a cancer treatment): $6,214 (per month/per customer) in the United States, compared to $1,141 in Canada and $2,697 in England.
-- Humira (for rheumatoid arthritis): $2,246 in the United States, compared to $881 in Switzerland and $1,102 in England.
-- Cymbalta (for depression): $194 in the United States, compared to $46 in England and $52 in the Netherlands. In fact, there is also a generic version of Cymbalta so these prices reflect having a cheaper alternative.

Pharmaceuticals cheaper abroad because of regulation - CNN.com

Mom and Pop stores have been going down for years... It is the giants of health insurance who have been kicking them to the side many years before Obamacare.

BTW: I live in the most expensive place in America to live. $15.00 an hour is chicken feed, minimum wage people are leaving and the mega-rich are taking over the whole bay area.. They are finding there is no one to teach their children, clean their toilets, make their hamburgers..

OK, so ignoring the wealth envy, and let's assume if you stop paying people they will work anyway. So, mathematically, how much more healthcare do you think taking their earnings is going to give you across the customer base?

Kaz~ Shut the fuck up about my enviousness of rich people... I am rich asshole

Some wealthy people see the corruption too.

.

Now that was funny. Do you not see how funny what you just said was?

"Doctors are bound by and signed a law and ethics agreement to only go by what the FDA approves.
The FDA is Fucking us."​

Regulations causing problems.

"Buying from other countries is illegal...and that is fucked up too. Why do you think this is ok?"​

Regulations causing problems.

"We need regulations that will help the people not the BIG Pharma and FDA. of coarse Congress is helping them for $$$$."​

Did you not read your own post? You just pointed to two examples of regulations that caused problems, and then immediately said "We need regulations!"

The regulations are the causes of the problems you just mentioned. We don't need regulations. We need less regulations.

And again, you didn't grasp the entire point of my post. You can't make regulations that "help the people, not big Pharma and the FDA". Regulations INHERENTLY will benefit big pharma and the wealth. Inherently. By it's very nature, it will help the big companies.

Mom and Pop stores have been going down for years... It is the giants of health insurance who have been kicking them to the side many years before Obamacare.

How many of those years have the regulations been going down? How many of them have the regulations been going up?

That's my point.

Yeah, the closing of small shops in favor of the major companies didn't start with ObamaCare. Because regulations and ever expanding controls over business, didn't start with ObamaCare either. It's just the latest example.

Delusional Andy.....Of coarse we need some regulations in place for the safety of the drugs approved..but at the same time the Big fucking Pharma can get their hands in and pay $$$$$ for the voting in their favor to keep things corrupt.

If we didn't have any regulations any Tom, Dick or Harry could make a magic drug ..

Because of the voting influence the regulations are helping the Big Pharma not the American people.

If you can not acknowledge that the politicians are in bed with the FDA, drug makers, medical costs, procedures and making huge amounts of money on the backs of the American people. Then I am done with this conversation. And you can stay in your little dream world.
.

Exposing Big Pharma's Influence on Politicians | ENCOGNITIVE.COM
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/03/25/opinion/scare-tactics-over-foreign-drugs.html

How much do you think the drug companies would spend lobbying congress, if there were no drug regulations to influence?

The whole reason it's worth it to spend millions lobbying the FDA, is specifically because they can influence how the FDA controls the drug market. If there was no FDA to control the drug market..... there would be no reason to spend millions lobbying the FDA.

Yeah, any Tom Dick and Harry could create drugs. That's true. What would that do to the market? Think about it.

If any company could produce a knock off drug like Sovaldi, would the drug company be able to charge $1,000 per pill? No. They would not. I want any Tom, Dick or Harry being able to make drugs. I think that would be great. The price of drugs would drop like a rock with unrestrained competition.

Any company that produced a bad drug, would be black listed, and eliminated from the market, like any other company that produced a bad product. You do realize that I could brew some whine, bottle it, and kill a dozen people before the police showed up. Anyone could. This is idea that government is your ultimate savior from bad people is ridiculous. The thing that prevents bad stuff from happening, is what happens to the criminal when they are caught. Not some FDA inspector.

When Walmart started selling roasted chicken, the executives wanted to make sure the chicken was cooked safely. In their own report, the FDA inspectors only showed up 3 or 4 times, over several hundred stores. Walmart decided to implement their own food safety system, because they knew if there was a problem the FDA would never catch it.

Politicians are out for themselves. Politicians are there to give favors for money. Politicians LOVE regulations, because every single regulation, is another chance to milk companies for cash. Of course the policians are in bed with the corporations.

It's like the mafia and the Unions. It's like Al Capone and the police department. Like trial lawyers and ambulances.

The politicians want you to support them regulating, and taxing, everything they can get you to support. That way, the companies have to come lobby them, and give them money and support, to get those regulations you wanted, to bend in their favor, or at least not harm their business.

Microsoft is a perfect example. Before the government started legislating against Microsoft, they never spent a dime lobbying government. They were non-political. They didn't influence, they didn't lobby, they ignored the government and worked on their own business.

After the government dragged them to court, on fabricated charges.... suddenly Microsoft got the message. They started spending millions in Washington, and lobbied everyone. To this day, Microsoft keeps the money flowing to government, 'for protection'.

Every time you say "I want government to regulate X for the benefit of the people!", what you are in fact doing, is giving politicians one more tool to force companies to lobby them, and fund their campaigns, and get favors with.

Very good reply....interesting.

Question: Look at what happened to Wall Street when Bush lifted the regulations , and almost crashed America.Link below...why do you think it is ok to not have any rules?

We have to have some regulations for that reason..GREED

The one thing that would stop this greed, is to drop the regulations for the overseas market and make it legal to buy from other countries..
This is how they are strangling us..

I belong to a overseas drug forum, very expensive to buy now but if it opened up things would get cheaper.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/09/20/business/worldbusiness/20iht-prexy.4.16321064.html


.

 

[Andylusion]

it doesn't [require you to have a plan], but you pay a fine for not being insured, unless you qualify for free insurance so the rest of us are paying your premiums. call it a fine or a tax, either way its a penalty for not buying something the government has ordered you to buy.

And? Also hospital bills can't collect on bankruptcy relief that eliminates such bills. Norway is an excellent example, because it is true.

beta male, I am filing this away for the next time you use the mass murder in Norway as an excuse for arguing about gun rights here.

omega shemale, I am filing this away to shove up your metrosexual ass when Trump becomes president and Hillary goes to prison.

Is it really possible for a shemale to be metrosexual? Aren't they kinda mutually exclusive?

i used to think hate-filled bigots had gone the way of the dodo.

thanks for dissuading me.

Funny... I was never under any illusion that you left.

 

[Andylusion]

There is no "complete overhaul" that is going to change this outcome.

Regulations inherently, by their very nature, benefit the rich. Doesn't matter what regulations you put in place, the rich will benefit from them.

If the administration put in place a regulation that actually harmed the rich, the rich would close down their companies, and leave. If that happened, and millions of people were left without insurance, because all the insurance companies closed, that would both be terrible for everyone, cause havoc in the economy, but it would also destroy the politicians who pushed the regulation.

So they will never do that.

Thus any regulation passed, no matter what that regulation is, or who came up with it, or for what purpose.... it will never harm the super rich. It won't ever happen.

However, they will pass regulations that cost companies tons of money to meet. That action inherently benefits the rich, no matter what the intention is.

Here's how. Me and you, run insurance companies. You have a small started up company, with a few hundred clients, and you pull down $150,000 a year. I have a major insurance company covering a hundred cities, with a million clients, and I make a billion dollars a year.

The government passes a new massive regulation, that will cost us both a million dollars to implement, and get approval.

Which of us is able to spend the money needed to meet those regulations? I can easily. Billion dollars a year, I can implement those regulations no problem. You on the other hand, that may bankrupt your little company. Instead you are likely to show up at my front door, and ask if I'd like to buy you out. Which of course I do. Now even with the expensive regulations, because I have more customers and less competition, I make hundreds of billions more money.

This is the flaw in your thinking, that I've seen hundreds of times.

You, or those like you, push for massive regulations over whatever. Then after those massive regulations are passed, you see that the big wealthy companies are making massive more profits. Thus you assume that since the regulations didn't prevent the profits, that there must be some sort of corruption involved.

In realty, there is rarely corruption, but rather it is simply the normal result of government legislation.

Why do you think McDonald's CEO said he supported a $15/hour minimum wage? Do you really think such a regulation would harm McDonald's that the CEO would support it?

It's because McDonald's executives know that they have the money and capital, to replace workers with Kiosks and automation.

You know who can't replace their employees with kiosks? All of their competition. The small mom&pop shops. The tiny store chains.

So those people will go out of business, and McDonald's will gain an ever increasing share of the market, making hundreds of billions more, than they are now.

Regulations by their very nature...... inherently benefit the rich.

Doctors are bound by and signed a law and ethics agreement to only go by what the FDA approves.

The FDA is Fucking us.

Buying from other countries is illegal...and that is fucked up too. Why do you think this is ok?

We need regulations that will help the people not the BIG Pharma and FDA. of coarse Congress is helping them for $$$$.

-- Gleevec (a cancer treatment): $6,214 (per month/per customer) in the United States, compared to $1,141 in Canada and $2,697 in England.
-- Humira (for rheumatoid arthritis): $2,246 in the United States, compared to $881 in Switzerland and $1,102 in England.
-- Cymbalta (for depression): $194 in the United States, compared to $46 in England and $52 in the Netherlands. In fact, there is also a generic version of Cymbalta so these prices reflect having a cheaper alternative.

Pharmaceuticals cheaper abroad because of regulation - CNN.com

Mom and Pop stores have been going down for years... It is the giants of health insurance who have been kicking them to the side many years before Obamacare.

BTW: I live in the most expensive place in America to live. $15.00 an hour is chicken feed, minimum wage people are leaving and the mega-rich are taking over the whole bay area.. They are finding there is no one to teach their children, clean their toilets, make their hamburgers..

OK, so ignoring the wealth envy, and let's assume if you stop paying people they will work anyway. So, mathematically, how much more healthcare do you think taking their earnings is going to give you across the customer base?

Kaz~ Shut the fuck up about my enviousness of rich people... I am rich asshole

Some wealthy people see the corruption too.

.

Now that was funny. Do you not see how funny what you just said was?

"Doctors are bound by and signed a law and ethics agreement to only go by what the FDA approves.
The FDA is Fucking us."​

Regulations causing problems.

"Buying from other countries is illegal...and that is fucked up too. Why do you think this is ok?"​

Regulations causing problems.

"We need regulations that will help the people not the BIG Pharma and FDA. of coarse Congress is helping them for $$$$."​

Did you not read your own post? You just pointed to two examples of regulations that caused problems, and then immediately said "We need regulations!"

The regulations are the causes of the problems you just mentioned. We don't need regulations. We need less regulations.

And again, you didn't grasp the entire point of my post. You can't make regulations that "help the people, not big Pharma and the FDA". Regulations INHERENTLY will benefit big pharma and the wealth. Inherently. By it's very nature, it will help the big companies.

Mom and Pop stores have been going down for years... It is the giants of health insurance who have been kicking them to the side many years before Obamacare.

How many of those years have the regulations been going down? How many of them have the regulations been going up?

That's my point.

Yeah, the closing of small shops in favor of the major companies didn't start with ObamaCare. Because regulations and ever expanding controls over business, didn't start with ObamaCare either. It's just the latest example.

Delusional Andy.....Of coarse we need some regulations in place for the safety of the drugs approved..but at the same time the Big fucking Pharma can get their hands in and pay $$$$$ for the voting in their favor to keep things corrupt.

If we didn't have any regulations any Tom, Dick or Harry could make a magic drug ..

Because of the voting influence the regulations are helping the Big Pharma not the American people.

If you can not acknowledge that the politicians are in bed with the FDA, drug makers, medical costs, procedures and making huge amounts of money on the backs of the American people. Then I am done with this conversation. And you can stay in your little dream world.
.

Exposing Big Pharma's Influence on Politicians | ENCOGNITIVE.COM
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/03/25/opinion/scare-tactics-over-foreign-drugs.html

How much do you think the drug companies would spend lobbying congress, if there were no drug regulations to influence?

The whole reason it's worth it to spend millions lobbying the FDA, is specifically because they can influence how the FDA controls the drug market. If there was no FDA to control the drug market..... there would be no reason to spend millions lobbying the FDA.

Yeah, any Tom Dick and Harry could create drugs. That's true. What would that do to the market? Think about it.

If any company could produce a knock off drug like Sovaldi, would the drug company be able to charge $1,000 per pill? No. They would not. I want any Tom, Dick or Harry being able to make drugs. I think that would be great. The price of drugs would drop like a rock with unrestrained competition.

Any company that produced a bad drug, would be black listed, and eliminated from the market, like any other company that produced a bad product. You do realize that I could brew some whine, bottle it, and kill a dozen people before the police showed up. Anyone could. This is idea that government is your ultimate savior from bad people is ridiculous. The thing that prevents bad stuff from happening, is what happens to the criminal when they are caught. Not some FDA inspector.

When Walmart started selling roasted chicken, the executives wanted to make sure the chicken was cooked safely. In their own report, the FDA inspectors only showed up 3 or 4 times, over several hundred stores. Walmart decided to implement their own food safety system, because they knew if there was a problem the FDA would never catch it.

Politicians are out for themselves. Politicians are there to give favors for money. Politicians LOVE regulations, because every single regulation, is another chance to milk companies for cash. Of course the policians are in bed with the corporations.

It's like the mafia and the Unions. It's like Al Capone and the police department. Like trial lawyers and ambulances.

The politicians want you to support them regulating, and taxing, everything they can get you to support. That way, the companies have to come lobby them, and give them money and support, to get those regulations you wanted, to bend in their favor, or at least not harm their business.

Microsoft is a perfect example. Before the government started legislating against Microsoft, they never spent a dime lobbying government. They were non-political. They didn't influence, they didn't lobby, they ignored the government and worked on their own business.

After the government dragged them to court, on fabricated charges.... suddenly Microsoft got the message. They started spending millions in Washington, and lobbied everyone. To this day, Microsoft keeps the money flowing to government, 'for protection'.

Every time you say "I want government to regulate X for the benefit of the people!", what you are in fact doing, is giving politicians one more tool to force companies to lobby them, and fund their campaigns, and get favors with.

Very good reply....interesting.

Question: Look at what happened to Wall Street when Bush lifted the regulations , and almost crashed America.Link below...why do you think it is ok to not have any rules?

We have to have some regulations for that reason..GREED

The one thing that would stop this greed, is to drop the regulations for the overseas market and make it legal to buy from other countries..
This is how they are strangling us..

I belong to a overseas drug forum, very expensive to buy now but if it opened up things would get cheaper.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/09/20/business/worldbusiness/20iht-prexy.4.16321064.html


.

Actually that is not correct. Bush did not deregulate the banks at all. And in fact, the Republicans attempted to control Freddie Mac and Fannie Mae on this, and were prevented by the Democrats.

There were no regulations, that were lifted, that caused the crash of the Sub-prime bubble. In fact, the bubble started in 1997.

Greed is not a logical reason for regulations. If anything, regulations are exactly how Greed is created. Regulations allow companies to charge higher and higher prices, without worry of competition, which is prevented by the regulations.

 

[Eaglewings]

And after all this, we still have seven (7) separate delivery/payment systems that don't communicate directly with each other:

1. ACA/Individual
   
2. Group
3. VA
4. Medicare
5. Medicaid
6. Worker's Comp
7. Indigent

Very impressive, both parties should be so proud.
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Whom would you define as "indigent" and not covered by Medicaid?

Illegals and Americans who don't qualify for Medicaid but still don't have individual coverage. There's plenty of them.
.

Isn't the Official RW stance that "all illegals have Obamacare"? And who would be below the poverty line and not eligible for Medicaid?

Love to see some actual statistics for all of that, but I suspect it's just the Usual Talking Points.

Illegals can not get insurance , or obamacare...They clog up the emergency rooms and jack up our medical cost.

This is another odd claim to me.

If they could get Obamacare.... they would jack up our medical costs. Who do you think is paying for it, when they get subsidized health care?

If they get health insurance, you are still paying for them. Every time the insurance company pays out, they charge you higher premiums. Unless you have a private plan. But most don't.

The reason why everyone has to have insurance, because the hospitals need a payback for all the non US citizens not paying their bill.

I am not sure if you saw my post that said..... I was in the emergency room 2 Sundays ago for a kidney infection, I was really sick.
It was so jammed pack in there with what looked like illegals bringing their kids in for a little rash, or sniffle.

It looked like there had been a bomb that blew up and the ER was crazy over flowing.

I had to sit in a crowded hallway with a IV in my arm...Treating me in the fucking hallway. Maybe next time they will put up tents...geeeezzz we are paying for their rash visit $1000.00 .

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.

 

[Andylusion]

Obamacare forced young healthy people to subsidize my healthcare costs by purchasing way more insurance than they need. Considering my income I guess I feel a bit guilty over that but hey they voted the fool into office.

True, but don't worry too much. Some of us, like me, are using Obamacare to force you to subsidize my insurance premiums. I save money, and you get the tax bill.

 

[Andylusion]

Whom would you define as "indigent" and not covered by Medicaid?

Illegals and Americans who don't qualify for Medicaid but still don't have individual coverage. There's plenty of them.
.

Isn't the Official RW stance that "all illegals have Obamacare"? And who would be below the poverty line and not eligible for Medicaid?

Love to see some actual statistics for all of that, but I suspect it's just the Usual Talking Points.

Illegals can not get insurance , or obamacare...They clog up the emergency rooms and jack up our medical cost.

This is another odd claim to me.

If they could get Obamacare.... they would jack up our medical costs. Who do you think is paying for it, when they get subsidized health care?

If they get health insurance, you are still paying for them. Every time the insurance company pays out, they charge you higher premiums. Unless you have a private plan. But most don't.

The reason why everyone has to have insurance, because the hospitals need a payback for all the non US citizens not paying their bill.

I am not sure if you saw my post that said..... I was in the emergency room 2 Sundays ago for a kidney infection, I was really sick.
It was so jammed pack in there with what looked like illegals bringing their kids in for a little rash, or sniffle.

It looked like there had been a bomb that blew up and the ER was crazy over flowing.

I had to sit in a crowded hallway with a IV in my arm...Treating me in the fucking hallway. Maybe next time they will put up tents...geeeezzz we are paying for their rash visit $1000.00 .

.


.

And in addition, you are in San Fransico, which has one of the worst socialized health care systems in the country. You were screwed either way.

You can't force people to get insurance my friend. No matter what regulation you, have or if they are illegal. I know several people which canceled their insurance because "I don't need it". And they were legal.

The real solution is to remove the requirement to treat anyone who enters the hospital. But this is a democracy. Good luck getting that through congress.

 

[Centinel]

Whom would you define as "indigent" and not covered by Medicaid?

Illegals and Americans who don't qualify for Medicaid but still don't have individual coverage. There's plenty of them.
.

Isn't the Official RW stance that "all illegals have Obamacare"? And who would be below the poverty line and not eligible for Medicaid?

Love to see some actual statistics for all of that, but I suspect it's just the Usual Talking Points.

Illegals can not get insurance , or obamacare...They clog up the emergency rooms and jack up our medical cost.

This is another odd claim to me.

If they could get Obamacare.... they would jack up our medical costs. Who do you think is paying for it, when they get subsidized health care?

If they get health insurance, you are still paying for them. Every time the insurance company pays out, they charge you higher premiums. Unless you have a private plan. But most don't.

The reason why everyone has to have insurance, because the hospitals need a payback for all the non US citizens not paying their bill.

I am not sure if you saw my post that said..... I was in the emergency room 2 Sundays ago for a kidney infection, I was really sick.
It was so jammed pack in there with what looked like illegals bringing their kids in for a little rash, or sniffle.

It looked like there had been a bomb that blew up and the ER was crazy over flowing.

I had to sit in a crowded hallway with a IV in my arm...Treating me in the fucking hallway. Maybe next time they will put up tents...geeeezzz we are paying for their rash visit $1000.00 .

.


.

We need more hospitals; more doctors; more nurses; more medicine; more medical devices.

We need to get rid of law that limit all of these necessary products.

 

[BluesLegend]

Obamacare forced young healthy people to subsidize my healthcare costs by purchasing way more insurance than they need. Considering my income I guess I feel a bit guilty over that but hey they voted the fool into office.

True, but don't worry too much. Some of us, like me, are using Obamacare to force you to subsidize my insurance premiums. I save money, and you get the tax bill.

LOL a giant global corporation pays for my health insurance fool guess where they get the money. Oh noes your snark backfired and burned off your eyebrows.

 

[Andylusion]

Obamacare forced young healthy people to subsidize my healthcare costs by purchasing way more insurance than they need. Considering my income I guess I feel a bit guilty over that but hey they voted the fool into office.

True, but don't worry too much. Some of us, like me, are using Obamacare to force you to subsidize my insurance premiums. I save money, and you get the tax bill.

LOL a giant global corporation pays for my health insurance fool guess where they get the money. Oh noes your snark backfired and burned off your eyebrows.

Are you saying you don't pay taxes? Where do you think my subsidies are coming from?

 

[Arianrhod]

Isn't the Official RW stance that "all illegals have Obamacare"? And who would be below the poverty line and not eligible for Medicaid?

Love to see some actual statistics for all of that, but I suspect it's just the Usual Talking Points.

Ask a right winger about their take on health care. I'm not sure what it is, outside of "every man for himself".

So, opinion in the absence of facts. That's honest.

It wouldn't be difficult for you to make some estimates on the amount of people (legal or illegal) who don't have coverage, if you're actually curious.
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I'm actually curious how you can make the claim without supporting it. Curious, but not surprised.

Why so pissy?

Asking someone to support their assertions with facts is "pissy"? Not in English.

Obviously you're not going to respond to my post.

Not unless/until you have some facts to support your opinion.

 

[SwimExpert]

i used to think hate-filled bigots had gone the way of the dodo.

thanks for dissuading me.

Perhaps you need to adjust your sarcasm sensor.

 

[MaryL]

I lost so much when Obama became president, health care was one of them them . They say the road to hell is lined with good intentions. What is the road to heaven lined with?

 

[Eaglewings]

Illegals and Americans who don't qualify for Medicaid but still don't have individual coverage. There's plenty of them.
.

Isn't the Official RW stance that "all illegals have Obamacare"? And who would be below the poverty line and not eligible for Medicaid?

Love to see some actual statistics for all of that, but I suspect it's just the Usual Talking Points.

Illegals can not get insurance , or obamacare...They clog up the emergency rooms and jack up our medical cost.

This is another odd claim to me.

If they could get Obamacare.... they would jack up our medical costs. Who do you think is paying for it, when they get subsidized health care?

If they get health insurance, you are still paying for them. Every time the insurance company pays out, they charge you higher premiums. Unless you have a private plan. But most don't.

The reason why everyone has to have insurance, because the hospitals need a payback for all the non US citizens not paying their bill.

I am not sure if you saw my post that said..... I was in the emergency room 2 Sundays ago for a kidney infection, I was really sick.
It was so jammed pack in there with what looked like illegals bringing their kids in for a little rash, or sniffle.

It looked like there had been a bomb that blew up and the ER was crazy over flowing.

I had to sit in a crowded hallway with a IV in my arm...Treating me in the fucking hallway. Maybe next time they will put up tents...geeeezzz we are paying for their rash visit $1000.00 .

.


.

And in addition, you are in San Fransico, which has one of the worst socialized health care systems in the country. You were screwed either way.

You can't force people to get insurance my friend. No matter what regulation you, have or if they are illegal. I know several people which canceled their insurance because "I don't need it". And they were legal.

The real solution is to remove the requirement to treat anyone who enters the hospital. But this is a democracy. Good luck getting that through congress.

We have Stanford and UCSF in San Francisco..people come from all over the world to get the top doctors.

Healthcare was good for years until around 2005..This is when the prices went sky high with super high deductibles. and kick you off if you get a disease..

Anyway your right...the requirement to treat the illegals in the ER should be removed there are free clinics.

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