Bye bye Crimea we hardly knew you

[martybegan]

Putin BROKE international LAWS you fools

Correct.

But the sonuvabitch can point to a half-dozen similar sorties by The West in recent decades, and is playing the "Well, if YOU can, then so can I" shell game, and he's going to get away with it.

"...jesus you people have NO integrity"

Or just a little toasty (burned-out, sick-and-tired of war) after stomping on Iraq and Afghanistan over the past quarter-century, and not in the mood to contemplate another at the moment.

Hell, it's the European's backyard - and if they're cowering over this and unwilling to get into Uncle Vlad's face over this, then any 'adventure' probably wouldn't get very far or end very well anyway.

Maybe it's more like Sad Pragmatism in this instance, rather than a lack of backbone or integrity... maybe.

Russia actually has rights to keep troops within Ukraine, in particular Sevastopol and the Crimea.

 

[KGB]

anytime something like this occurs, it is enjoyable coming on here & reading the pedantic mutterings of some posters. Let's get down to brass tacks....

1) Russia wants Crimea for itself & apparently, the Crimeans (who are a majority ethnic Russian & speak Russian) want to be part of Russia. That ship has sailed. Crimea goes to Russia.

2) Historically, the Crimean region has been part of Russia through much of its shared history, so this is more of a return than anything else.

3) We aren't going to war over Crimea. It is Russia's back yard & we have no strategic interest anyway.

4) There are things we can do. Re-start negotiations with Poland & the Czech Republic for missile defense. Also, start selling natural gas to Europe so that less of it comes from Russia. For good measure, schedule additional large scale exercises with the Poles & other NATO states that border Russia. Give Putin something to think about. It won't turn back the clock on Russia annexing Crimea, but it shows a degree of strength which is badly needed. The key is to deter Putin a little, show him that he still needs to kiss our ring a little.

This is real politik. There was an excellent op-ed in the New York Times the other day that describes the screws we could implement right away. I recommend everyone read it....

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/03/05/opinion/friedman-why-putin-doesnt-respect-us.html?_r=0

 

[Katzndogz]

obama's major missteps in this misadventure was threatening sanctions and freezing assets without knowing that no other country will join him. Then being turned down in such a very public manner. That was compounded by a threat to boycott the G8 deluding himself that other countries would join him. Again being rebuffed very publicly. obama might think he's a leader when he is in fact leading no one.

The real effect of bluster with no real way of follow up is to green light China's predation on Taiwan.

 

[Kondor3]

"...Russia actually has rights to keep troops within Ukraine, in particular Sevastopol and the Crimea."

My own (admittedly soft-and-fuzzy, lacking specifics) understanding is that the Russians have leased multiple military bases from the Ukraine (naval, and, I think, air) and that they have a lease-based right to operate from those bases in support of their interests in the Black Sea region, and that they have the right of transit to-and-from those bases, and that they have a right to interact with the locals and the local economy, for labor, supplies, etc.

But my own (see caveats, above) understanding is that they do not have a right to deploy or utilize their military forces to interfere with the political life of the Republic of the Ukraine, as they appear to be doing as we 'speak'.

Did I get that right?

 

[Kondor3]

...1) Russia wants Crimea for itself & apparently, the Crimeans (who are a majority ethnic Russian & speak Russian) want to be part of Russia. That ship has sailed. Crimea goes to Russia.

2) Historically, the Crimean region has been part of Russia through much of its shared history, so this is more of a return than anything else.

3) We aren't going to war over Crimea. It is Russia's back yard & we have no strategic interest anyway.

4) There are things we can do. Re-start negotiations with Poland & the Czech Republic for missile defense. Also, start selling natural gas to Europe so that less of it comes from Russia. For good measure, schedule additional large scale exercises with the Poles & other NATO states that border Russia. Give Putin something to think about. It won't turn back the clock on Russia annexing Crimea, but it shows a degree of strength which is badly needed. The key is to deter Putin a little, show him that he still needs to kiss our ring a little...

Sounds about right... kinda sums it up, I would think.

 

[martybegan]

"...Russia actually has rights to keep troops within Ukraine, in particular Sevastopol and the Crimea."

My own (admittedly soft-and-fuzzy, lacking specifics) understanding is that the Russians have leased multiple military bases from the Ukraine (naval, and, I think, air) and that they have a lease-based right to operate from those bases in support of their interests in the Black Sea region, and that they have the right of transit to-and-from those bases, and that they have a right to interact with the locals and the local economy, for labor, supplies, etc.

But my own (see caveats, above) understanding is that they do not have a right to deploy or utilize their military forces to interfere with the political life of the Republic of the Ukraine, as they appear to be doing as we 'speak'.

Did I get that right?

The fact we even have to debate this implies the situation is fuzzy. True invasions are never fuzzy. you know you are either invaded, or you are not. The existence of a status of force agreement makes things fuzzy. Has Russia overstepped the force agreements? almost definitely, but the fact they exist makes this whole situation a giant mud pit.

 

[Kevin_Kennedy]

There's still a referendum to be had, but I don't see why Crimea shouldn't leave the Ukraine and join Russia if that's what they'd prefer. If it maintains peace that seems like a preferable alternative.

 

[dannyboys]

obama's major missteps in this misadventure was threatening sanctions and freezing assets without knowing that no other country will join him. Then being turned down in such a very public manner. That was compounded by a threat to boycott the G8 deluding himself that other countries would join him. Again being rebuffed very publicly. obama might think he's a leader when he is in fact leading no one.

The real effect of bluster with no real way of follow up is to green light China's predation on Taiwan.

BINGO! There are dozens of world leaders waiting to see if Bobo loses the Senate.
China is playing the long game with Taiwan. It's no longer 'Communist China' must reclaim Taiwan. China is moving in the same social /economic direction as Taiwan. Within forty years Taiwan and China will be the best of friends and the people of Taiwan will have no memory of why Taiwan ran away from China. For China it's never about whether their flag is flying over another country. It's only ever 'business'.
Not a shot fired. Same with China and the US. China's plan is to simply purchase America.....like they have done in continental Africa. Not a shot fired.

 

[dannyboys]

Now if some of you are ready to read the opinion of one of the smartest geo-political thinkers of our time:Henry Kissinger: To settle the Ukraine crisis, start at the end - The Washington Post

 

[tinydancer]

Well this was a no brainer.

The new transitional government are against any language being spoken except Ukrainian. That means banning the Russian language.

And taking away Crimea's autonomy.

 

[Kondor3]

Now if some of you are ready to read the opinion of one of the smartest geo-political thinkers of our time:Henry Kissinger: To settle the Ukraine crisis, start at the end - The Washington Post

It was a Good Read... and, not that it matters a damn what this amateur thinks in the context of GeoPolitik experts like Kissinger... much of what he said made good sense, even if some of it strikes many (including myself) as difficult to sit still for.

 

[tinydancer]

Svoboda who strong armed the coup have ended up with 4 to 6 seats in the new transitional government as high ranking cabinet members.

These are "uber Ukrainians" who voted to ban the Russian language. Now that has been repealed by the newly installed President but for how long?

And if you go to Svoboda's party platform you will realize why anyone that is not an "ethnic Ukrainian" has alarm bells going off.

 

[tinydancer]

Now doesn't this party platform give one pause to wonder, why are we backing these people?

And validate why the Crimeans are more than worried about Kiev?

Key words "ethnic Ukrainians" "nationalization" "Ukrainaphobia to be criminalized"
and of course the seizing of private farmland with the classic catch phrase "state owned". Oh and duly noted. Nuclear weaponry. Not energy. Weaponry.

Here's some of the platform. Rest at link.

Lustration of state authority: publication of lists of all Soviet KGB agents that served or continue to serve in Ukraine, dismissal of such people as well as members of the former Communist Party of the Soviet Union from state leadership positions, replace them with graduates of the Ukrainian universities

Criminal prosecution for “Ukrainophobia" *** any anti Ukraine sentiment

Only those born in Ukraine can become Ukrainian citizens, with the exceptions for those who have lived in Ukraine for more than 15 years, know the Ukrainian language, culture and Ukrainian Constitution

Renunciation of the 2010 Kharkiv agreements

Impeachment of President Viktor Yanukovych

Ban on abortion, except in cases of medical necessity, or rape and imprisonment from three to seven years for those who violate this ban

Criminalization of public promotion of abortions or calls for abortions (by introducing a fine for doing so)

Cancelling taxes on Ukrainian language products — films, music and literature — and instead imposing taxes on non-Ukrainian language products. The proceeds obtained this way will be channeled into developing Ukrainian language products

Nationalization of major enterprises, greater state control of the banking system and a ban on privatization of land

Ban on the import of the food products that are also produced inside Ukraine and import only exotic food that is not domestically grown

The restoration of the Soviet practice of indicating the ethnic origin in passports and on birth certificates

Proportional representation on executive bodies of ethnic Ukrainians, on the one hand, and national minorities, on the other

Ban on adoptions by non-Ukrainians of Ukrainian children

Preferential treatment for Ukrainian students in the allocation of dormitory places, and a series of similar changes to existing legal provisions

Ordained persons should have no right to be elected to state authorities or local self-government authorities

Abolition of Crimean autonomy

Farmlands are to be state-owned and given to farmers in hereditary use

Ukraine should again re-acquire tactical nuclear weaponry



Svoboda (political party) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/QUOTE][/B]

 

[oldfart]

can florida just vote to not be part of the USA?

Only after Texas.

 

[Kevin_Kennedy]

Now doesn't this party platform give one pause to wonder, why are we backing these people?

And validate why the Crimeans are more than worried about Kiev?

Key words "ethnic Ukrainians" "nationalization" "Ukrainaphobia to be criminalized"
and of course the seizing of private farmland with the classic catch phrase "state owned". Oh and duly noted. Nuclear weaponry. Not energy. Weaponry.

Here's some of the platform. Rest at link.

Lustration of state authority: publication of lists of all Soviet KGB agents that served or continue to serve in Ukraine, dismissal of such people as well as members of the former Communist Party of the Soviet Union from state leadership positions, replace them with graduates of the Ukrainian universities

Criminal prosecution for “Ukrainophobia" *** any anti Ukraine sentiment

Only those born in Ukraine can become Ukrainian citizens, with the exceptions for those who have lived in Ukraine for more than 15 years, know the Ukrainian language, culture and Ukrainian Constitution

Renunciation of the 2010 Kharkiv agreements

Impeachment of President Viktor Yanukovych

Ban on abortion, except in cases of medical necessity, or rape and imprisonment from three to seven years for those who violate this ban

Criminalization of public promotion of abortions or calls for abortions (by introducing a fine for doing so)

Cancelling taxes on Ukrainian language products — films, music and literature — and instead imposing taxes on non-Ukrainian language products. The proceeds obtained this way will be channeled into developing Ukrainian language products

Nationalization of major enterprises, greater state control of the banking system and a ban on privatization of land

Ban on the import of the food products that are also produced inside Ukraine and import only exotic food that is not domestically grown

The restoration of the Soviet practice of indicating the ethnic origin in passports and on birth certificates

Proportional representation on executive bodies of ethnic Ukrainians, on the one hand, and national minorities, on the other

Ban on adoptions by non-Ukrainians of Ukrainian children

Preferential treatment for Ukrainian students in the allocation of dormitory places, and a series of similar changes to existing legal provisions

Ordained persons should have no right to be elected to state authorities or local self-government authorities

Abolition of Crimean autonomy

Farmlands are to be state-owned and given to farmers in hereditary use

Ukraine should again re-acquire tactical nuclear weaponry



Svoboda (political party) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

"The party was founded in 1991 as the Social-National Party of Ukraine (Ukrainian: Соціал-національна партія Україн&#1080, a reference to National Socialism."

Svoboda (political party) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I'd probably prefer Putin to Nazis as well.

 

[tinydancer]

Its NOT part of Russia.


they are a military presence in the area illegally and we are supposed to TRUST this vote as untampered with?


get a clue people

No you should get a clue. By a treaty between Ukraine and Russia in 1997 Russia is allowed to have up to 25,000 military personnel in Crimea. There is a huge naval base there.

AND when the treaty was renewed Russia was allowed to stay in Crimea for another 25 years past 2017.

The demographics in Crimea have ethnic Russians as approximately 60% of the population. The former President who was overthrown in this coup was wildly popular in Crimea.

Crimea has been autonomous for years. Another vote was coming. The new government formed out of the coup is seriously anti Russian and pro "ethnically pure Ukrainians".

It makes sense they would not want to be dominated by this new government dominated by whack job fascists.

 

[Sallow]

The Russians can not be allowed to just steal land from others

Make it stop.

Please.

Make it stop.

 

[tinydancer]

Now doesn't this party platform give one pause to wonder, why are we backing these people?

And validate why the Crimeans are more than worried about Kiev?

Key words "ethnic Ukrainians" "nationalization" "Ukrainaphobia to be criminalized"
and of course the seizing of private farmland with the classic catch phrase "state owned". Oh and duly noted. Nuclear weaponry. Not energy. Weaponry.

Here's some of the platform. Rest at link.

Lustration of state authority: publication of lists of all Soviet KGB agents that served or continue to serve in Ukraine, dismissal of such people as well as members of the former Communist Party of the Soviet Union from state leadership positions, replace them with graduates of the Ukrainian universities

Criminal prosecution for “Ukrainophobia" *** any anti Ukraine sentiment

Only those born in Ukraine can become Ukrainian citizens, with the exceptions for those who have lived in Ukraine for more than 15 years, know the Ukrainian language, culture and Ukrainian Constitution

Renunciation of the 2010 Kharkiv agreements

Impeachment of President Viktor Yanukovych

Ban on abortion, except in cases of medical necessity, or rape and imprisonment from three to seven years for those who violate this ban

Criminalization of public promotion of abortions or calls for abortions (by introducing a fine for doing so)

Cancelling taxes on Ukrainian language products — films, music and literature — and instead imposing taxes on non-Ukrainian language products. The proceeds obtained this way will be channeled into developing Ukrainian language products

Nationalization of major enterprises, greater state control of the banking system and a ban on privatization of land

Ban on the import of the food products that are also produced inside Ukraine and import only exotic food that is not domestically grown

The restoration of the Soviet practice of indicating the ethnic origin in passports and on birth certificates

Proportional representation on executive bodies of ethnic Ukrainians, on the one hand, and national minorities, on the other

Ban on adoptions by non-Ukrainians of Ukrainian children

Preferential treatment for Ukrainian students in the allocation of dormitory places, and a series of similar changes to existing legal provisions

Ordained persons should have no right to be elected to state authorities or local self-government authorities

Abolition of Crimean autonomy

Farmlands are to be state-owned and given to farmers in hereditary use

Ukraine should again re-acquire tactical nuclear weaponry



Svoboda (political party) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

"The party was founded in 1991 as the Social-National Party of Ukraine (Ukrainian: Соціал-національна партія Україн&#1080, a reference to National Socialism."

Svoboda (political party) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I'd probably prefer Putin to Nazis as well.

I'm no Putin fan (Ukrainian descent and I have no love for Russia due to the history of Stalin and my ancestors ) but given the platform and the previous actions of Svoboda I'd be running to Russia to protect me.

 

[Kondor3]

It looks like Svoboda has four (4) cabinet posts rather than five(5), out of a total of twenty(20) cabinet posts, or, 4/20 = 1/5 = 20% of all cabinet posts; including one (1) secondary Vice Prime Minister, and the Departments of Defense, Agriculture and Ecology (EPA?), if the Wiki article is accurate...

Yatsenyuk Government - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Sallow]

Now if some of you are ready to read the opinion of one of the smartest geo-political thinkers of our time:Henry Kissinger: To settle the Ukraine crisis, start at the end - The Washington Post

It was a Good Read... and, not that it matters a damn what this amateur thinks in the context of GeoPolitik experts like Kissinger... much of what he said made good sense, even if some of it strikes many (including myself) as difficult to sit still for.

Russia's not giving up that port.