Bye bye Crimea we hardly knew you

[Kondor3]

Now if some of you are ready to read the opinion of one of the smartest geo-political thinkers of our time:Henry Kissinger: To settle the Ukraine crisis, start at the end - The Washington Post

It was a Good Read... and, not that it matters a damn what this amateur thinks in the context of GeoPolitik experts like Kissinger... much of what he said made good sense, even if some of it strikes many (including myself) as difficult to sit still for.

Russia's not giving up that port.

Agreed.

But they already had it, before all The Fuss started.

 

[tinydancer]

It looks like Svoboda has four (4) cabinet posts rather than five(5), out of a total of twenty(20) cabinet posts, or, 4/20 = 1/5 = 20% of all cabinet posts; including one (1) secondary Vice Prime Minister, and the Departments of Defense, Agriculture and Ecology (EPA?), if the Wiki article is accurate...

Yatsenyuk Government - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Yeah I've seen from four to six. Interesting that they have been given such high ranking offices don't you think?

Considering that before the *cough* revolution throwing out a duly elected President they only had 37 seats.

 

[martybegan]

It looks like Svoboda has four (4) cabinet posts rather than five(5), out of a total of twenty(20) cabinet posts, or, 4/20 = 1/5 = 20% of all cabinet posts; including one (1) secondary Vice Prime Minister, and the Departments of Defense, Agriculture and Ecology (EPA?), if the Wiki article is accurate...

Yatsenyuk Government - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Yeah I've seen from four to six. Interesting that they have been given such high ranking offices don't you think?

Considering that before the *cough* revolution throwing out a duly elected President they only had 37 seats.

They are missing one key thing from being a true Nazi party, fuhrerprinzip.

The current party leader (elected every two years[27]) is Oleh Tyahnybok, who has held the role since February 2004.[2]

They are a natural if undesirable overreaction to nationalism caused by the 80+ years of soviet actions to smash their culture and russian-ize the Ukraine

 

[Kevin_Kennedy]

President Barack Obama said Thursday that the United States would not accept any referendum on the status of Crimea unless passed with the approval of the interim government in Kiev.

Doing otherwise, Obama said in a statement at the White House, would “violate the Ukrainian constitution and international law.”

“In 2014, we are well beyond the days when borders can be redrawn over the heads of democratic leaders,” Obama said.

Obama: Crimea referendum would violate international law - Edward-Isaac Dovere and Jennifer Epstein - POLITICO.com

I'm sorry, democratic leaders? Would those be the same "democratic" leaders installed by Obama's government, along with the E.U., that ousted an actual elected government in Kiev? And since when does the U.S. President get to decide internal Ukrainian affairs? Did they vote for him?

The hypocrisy here is unbelievable.

 

[tinydancer]

It looks like Svoboda has four (4) cabinet posts rather than five(5), out of a total of twenty(20) cabinet posts, or, 4/20 = 1/5 = 20% of all cabinet posts; including one (1) secondary Vice Prime Minister, and the Departments of Defense, Agriculture and Ecology (EPA?), if the Wiki article is accurate...

Yatsenyuk Government - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Yeah I've seen from four to six. Interesting that they have been given such high ranking offices don't you think?

Considering that before the *cough* revolution throwing out a duly elected President they only had 37 seats.

They are missing one key thing from being a true Nazi party, fuhrerprinzip.

The current party leader (elected every two years[27]) is Oleh Tyahnybok, who has held the role since February 2004.[2]

They are a natural if undesirable overreaction to nationalism caused by the 80+ years of soviet actions to smash their culture and russian-ize the Ukraine

The point is they are in power now with these key cabinet posts after the coup. And if I were as they put it an "ethnic Russian" I would be sweating it.

You have to remember that the President that they overthrew was a duly elected president and if you need me to go into my stack of stuff to show you the article where the election that he won was praised to high heaven by official observers from Europe I will.

Those in power in Kiev now seized that power technically from the rest of the country that had voted for him.

So those voters have every right to fear this new unelected transitional government.

 

[oldfart]

Ukraine being a different country and all we don't have a choice but to accept their vote. Should we go to war to prevent the people of another country from democratically exercising their right to self determination? We cannot stop Ukranians from considering themselves ethnically Russian. We cannot, without use of tyrannical force impose western policies on the unwilling population of an entire country.

I'm torn between wanting to agree with you and wanting to disagree with you.

I fully agree that interference with the decisions of politically competent peoples is a disagreeable business, and that the less we indulge in that, the better, generally speaking.

I disagree that an ethnic minority within a republic has an uncontested right to secede from a republic just because they happen to be a majority in a given state or province or region.

Especially when such secession is catalyzed by military interference from the outside.

We are soon going to have a fait accompli on our hands, with the Crimea seceding from the Ukraine, and, quite possibly, being annexed outright by Russia.

In general there may be principles of self-determination that come into play. This is not one of those circumstances; the territorial integrity of Ukraine was negotiated and guaranteed by Russia, the UK and the US in 1995. In the broader discussions, the status of the Russian minorities, the Russian naval base in Crimea, the status of local governmental autonomy in Crimea, the Crimean Tatars status, and the de-nuclearization of the Ukraine were all intertwined. No party has a right to unilaterally unravel any part of these agreements and stand on their treaty rights on the rest.

Ukraine was unfortunately caught in a situation where both Russia and the West attempted to cajol Ukraine into an either/or decision on economic union; either the European Union or the European-Asian Customs Union. Both efforts were a mistake. The result was to make worse a problematical political situation within Ukraine.

And Russia has done this before; Abkhazia, South Ossetia, and Transneistria. All are Russian puppet states recognized only by Russia and each other. There is a huge area of Eastern Europe with local Russian minorities, and if Russia has a right to intervene to "protect" them through setting up puppet states or direct annexation, we will have an inevitable war. The good news is that Russia certainly will not win it. The bad news is that it is possible no one else will win it either.

The NEXT BIG Question becomes: Will this lead to the annexation of the Ukraine, in whole or in part, now that Vladimir Putin has taken the (pathetic) measure of The West in this matter?

No. Putin does not want the whole Ukraine, he does not really want even the Crimea. What he wants is for Ukraine to remain united as a satellite of Russia.

Once this precedent has been established and tolerated internationally, at-law, I smell a division of the Ukraine into East and West Ukraine, in the not-too-distant future. As goes the Crimea, so goes the Eastern States within the Ukraine, yes?

Probably not. Separating the Donbas from the rest of Ukraine is problematical. Linguistically, the Donbas and Crimea are 80--86% Russian speaking, the area around Kiev 47%, and far West Ukraine less than 4%. But there are Russian ethnic or Russian speaking enclaves everywhere in Ukraine. On top of that, within each region except the East, the proportion of Russian speakers is higher in most urban areas. How do you partition block by block? Or do we ethnically cleanse and swap populations? The fragmented we make the Ukraine, the harder it will be to protect the rights of any minority anywhere within it.

And, if THAT happens, then the next Big Question THEN becomes, Will Russian annex WESTERN Ukraine, as well, so that they're snug-up against Poland and NATO again?

I really don't want to 'go to war' over the Crimea, but I think we should probably consider bitch-slapping Russia and Uncle Vlad in some meaningful and painful way, as a warning.

There are effective Western counters available. My carpool leaves shortly, so I have to leave that for later this afternoon!

But I DO think we should probably consider drawing a line in the sand, between East and West Ukraine - derived, probably, as a matter of Ethnic Majorities, I suppose, as dubious and distasteful as that sounds to our Western ears - and move to support the True Ukrainians - the citizens of West Ukraine - more manfully and solidly than we are at present.

I haven't really thought through all the implications yet, relevant to such a stance, but, at first glance, that seems like a sensible approach... sanctions re: the Crimea, more sanctions and other censure or punishments if Eastern Ukraine falls, but a line in the sand re: Western Ukraine.

Just thinkin' out loud...[/QUOTE]

 

[Katzndogz]

Sanctions are really off the table. Europe has already said no. All obama could do, at this point, is close Russian markets to our trade.

 

[skye]

Bye bye Crimea we hardly knew you.-


I don't get this bye bye nonsense! .... Crimea became part of Ukraine only in 1954, Crimea historically has been part of Russia, and if some don't know that, they should polish their facts about Soviet history ... when Nikita Khrushchev gave Crimea to Ukraine, people were totally dumbfounded and perplexed.... they didn't understand why did he do that, why did he pull Crimea out of the Russian hat and gave it as a "present" to Ukraine.

I don't have a horse in this race, but 60% of people in Crimea identify themselves as Russian.... and they certainly are not going to say bye bye Crimea.

The problem of Crimea is not an easy one by any means.

 

[Katzndogz]

There is no problem with Crimea. The United States just refuses to understand why there is no problem in Crimea.

 

[skye]

There is no problem with Crimea. The United States just refuses to understand why there is no problem in Crimea.

Sometimes the Foreign Policy of USA totally mystifies me!


And under Obama ...well.... there is no Foreign Policy at all, there is only mess....whatever Barry touches POOF! turns into you know what.

 

[Decus]

Ukraine's democatically elected parliament ousted Yankuovych. There was no coup:

"The truth is that Yanukovych’s own party turned against him. The Parliament today is made up of the same members as it was a before the revolution (besides a handful that are now on the run). Interim President Turchynov and Prime Minister Yatsenyuk are both former cabinet ministers and capable, experienced politicians and diplomats."

How The Western Press Is Getting It Terribly Wrong In Ukraine - Forbes

 

[Kondor3]

It looks like Svoboda has four (4) cabinet posts rather than five(5), out of a total of twenty(20) cabinet posts, or, 4/20 = 1/5 = 20% of all cabinet posts; including one (1) secondary Vice Prime Minister, and the Departments of Defense, Agriculture and Ecology (EPA?), if the Wiki article is accurate...

Yatsenyuk Government - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Yeah I've seen from four to six. Interesting that they have been given such high ranking offices don't you think?

What I find troubling is that Yulia's 'Fatherland' party included Svoboda under their umbrella in the first place, but parliamentary politics makes strange bedfelows, above and beyond what we're accustomed to here.

What bothers me more is that my own fluff-caliber reading on the subject this afternoon informs me that Svoboda only gleaned 33 seats (you saw 37) in Parliament in 2012, out of 400+ (less than 10% of all seats), yet they were given 20% of the cabinet posts.

The cabinet post that I find most cause for concern is that of 'Defense', in the hands of the nationalists.

"...Considering that before the *cough* revolution throwing out a duly elected President they only had 37 seats.

I really don't know what happened, to trigger this 'revolution' after a compromise had been worked out. I guess I'm going to have to do some supplemental and more serious reading on that (very important) sidebar.

 

[Decus]

For what it'sworth:

"In December the crowds grew larger. By the end of the year, millions of people had taken part in protests, all over the country. Journalists were beaten. Individual activists were abducted. Some of them were tortured. Dozens disappeared and have not yet been found."

"On January 16, Yanukovych signed a series of laws that had been “passed” through parliament, entirely illegally, by a minority using only a show of hands. These laws, introduced by pro-Russian legislators and similar to Russian models, severely constrained the freedom of speech and assembly, making of millions of protesters “extremists” who could be imprisoned."

"On February 20, an EU delegation was supposed to arrive to negotiate a truce. Instead, the regime orchestrated a bloodbath. The riot police fell back from some of the Maidan. When protesters followed, they were shot by snipers who had taken up positions on rooftops. Again and again people ran out to try to rescue the wounded, and again and again they were shot."

"As specialists in Russian and Ukrainian nationalism have been predicting for weeks, the claim that the Ukrainian revolution is a “nationalist coup,” as Yanukovych, in Russian exile, said on Friday, has become a pretext for Russian intervention."

"Thus far the new Ukrainian authorities have reacted with remarkable calm. It is entirely possible that a Russian attack on Ukraine will provoke a strong nationalist reaction: indeed, it would be rather surprising if it did not, since invasions have a way of bringing out the worst in people. If this is what does happen, we should see events for what they are: an entirely unprovoked attack by one nation upon the sovereign territory of another."

Ukraine: The Haze of Propaganda by Timothy Snyder | NYRblog | The New York Review of Books


.

 

[skye]

We are talking about Crimea! the rest of Ukraine is another story in my opinion.

Crimea belongs to Russia.

 

[Katzndogz]

We are talking about Crimea! the rest of Ukraine is another story in my opinion.

Crimea belongs to Russia.

That's what the people in Crimea say too.

 

[regent]

The British fought the Russians in the Crimea, I remember well the Light Brigade charging the Russian redoubts with Error Flynn on his charger. I think the British lost, but does that loss still give the British rights to the Crimea?
If the new thing is that people can vote as to who owns their land, would we lose Texas? Maybe this new process might work at that.

 

[Kondor3]

1. Is it true that the Ukrainian Parliament toppled Yanukovych via Impeachment or a No-Confidence Vote?

2. Is that legal, according to the Ukrainian Constitution?

3. Were the processes by which it was effected legal, according to the Ukrainian Constitution and Ukrainian parliamentary procedure?

Ukraine's democatically elected parliament ousted Yankuovych. There was no coup:

"The truth is that Yanukovych’s own party turned against him. The Parliament today is made up of the same members as it was a before the revolution (besides a handful that are now on the run). Interim President Turchynov and Prime Minister Yatsenyuk are both former cabinet ministers and capable, experienced politicians and diplomats."

How The Western Press Is Getting It Terribly Wrong In Ukraine - Forbes

 

[Katzndogz]

Can we find something less biased than something coming out of New York?

 

[theHawk]

Putin BROKE international LAWS you fools


jesus you people have NO integrity

Yes, Putin has broke international laws, what are you going to do about it?

What exactly do you want the Hussein to do about it? You honestly think Obama is going to put sanctions on Russia? European countries aren't going to stop buying Russian oil and natural gas because of this.

Yes, Putin is a giant asshole, who will attack and takes what he wants when America is weak. America's enemies are only inspired to be more aggressive when a spineless charlatan is leading our country. Obama projects weakness like no other President since Jimmy Carter.

 

[Decus]

1. Is it true that the Ukrainian Parliament toppled Yanukovych via Impeachment or a No-Confidence Vote?

2. Is that legal, according to the Ukrainian Constitution?

3. Were the processes by which it was effected legal, according to the Ukrainian Constitution and Ukrainian parliamentary procedure?

Ukraine's democatically elected parliament ousted Yankuovych. There was no coup:

"The truth is that Yanukovych’s own party turned against him. The Parliament today is made up of the same members as it was a before the revolution (besides a handful that are now on the run). Interim President Turchynov and Prime Minister Yatsenyuk are both former cabinet ministers and capable, experienced politicians and diplomats."

How The Western Press Is Getting It Terribly Wrong In Ukraine - Forbes

1. Was it legal that Yanukovych bankrupted the country and transferred the country's wealth abroad?

2. Was it legal for Yanukovych to order the killing of protestors?

I don't know but I'll research it.

.