Can Any Dem/lib Tell Us What Agency The Govt Has Run Efficiently?

[rightwinger]

We have the strongest military in the history of mankind, safe food and drugs, we went to the moon, we have made major strides in protecting our environment, government funded R&D in medicine, science and technology

I will take our government over any government on earth

Anyone want to argue with me?

Oh, nolo contendere...

However, even within the sampling domain of The Best that you cite here, there is great waste, and great fault, and great laziness, and great greed, and great inefficiency.

You can argue that one until you're blue in the face but it won't get you anywhere.

Show me a more efficient and effective government and we can start

Go at it

because everyone else is worse justifies mismanagement or our finances?????????????? only in the mind of a liberal.

Just putting things in perspective

The fact that you can't name a preferable govt speaks volumes

this is not about our govt vs some other govt. it is about our govt wasting our hard earned tax money and the fact that you libs want to turn more over to them to waste.

You are demanding an absolute without a comparable model of success from another nation

We do damned well

I am not denying that------------do you deny that we could to better? Do you really think that the govt could manage medical care for 330,000,000 people efficiently?

Why don't you quit dancing around and cut to the chase
You want to privatize our government


And yes, I think the government could do a better job at managing our medical care than a hodgepodge of insurance companies

 

[Redfish]

We have the strongest military in the history of mankind, safe food and drugs, we went to the moon, we have made major strides in protecting our environment, government funded R&D in medicine, science and technology

I will take our government over any government on earth

Anyone want to argue with me?

I agree with you 100%. But we are 17 trillion dollars in debt. We have not achieved those things you mentioned with fiscal efficiency. Are you now, as a liberal, claiming that NASA and DOD have been run efficiently?

We are 17 trillion in debt because we are lazy and demand we get more services for less taxes

We are getting what we the people asked for

so we should just say WTF and continue the path to fiscal ruin???????????? is that your plan?

but you are dodging. I asked if you think NASA and DOD were run efficiently. care to answer?

NASA and DOD....absolutely

Given the uncharted R&D mission they have undertaken they are both efficient and effective

Haven't seen a better space program or defense

OMG, $200 dollar hammers. bridges to nowhere. weapons systems that the military does not want or need, NASA being used for muslim outreach.

what planet are you on?

We do not have. $200 hammers, bridges to nowhere do not come from NASA or DOD, they come from politicians in red states demanding pork

Weapons systems are the most complex on earth. If we can keep politics out of the process we could be more efficient

the $200 hammers were bought on a Navy contract. Last time I checked the Navy was part of DOD. When did California and New York become red states? more pork goes to them than many red states combined.

I spent my entire career in and around DOD and weapons systems. I have seen the waste first hand.

But you are trying to change the subject. The government has never done anything efficiently. Never, nothing. Good results do not mean they were achieved efficiently. Is our welfare and food stamp program run efficiently? of course not. Could the govt manage healthcare efficiently? ask the vets who died waiting for an appointment at the VA.

 

[Redfish]

We have the strongest military in the history of mankind, safe food and drugs, we went to the moon, we have made major strides in protecting our environment, government funded R&D in medicine, science and technology

I will take our government over any government on earth

Anyone want to argue with me?

Oh, nolo contendere...

However, even within the sampling domain of The Best that you cite here, there is great waste, and great fault, and great laziness, and great greed, and great inefficiency.

You can argue that one until you're blue in the face but it won't get you anywhere.

Show me a more efficient and effective government and we can start

Go at it

because everyone else is worse justifies mismanagement or our finances?????????????? only in the mind of a liberal.

Just putting things in perspective

The fact that you can't name a preferable govt speaks volumes

this is not about our govt vs some other govt. it is about our govt wasting our hard earned tax money and the fact that you libs want to turn more over to them to waste.

You are demanding an absolute without a comparable model of success from another nation

We do damned well

I am not denying that------------do you deny that we could to better? Do you really think that the govt could manage medical care for 330,000,000 people efficiently?

Why don't you quit dancing around and cut to the chase
You want to privatize our government


And yes, I think the government could do a better job at managing our medical care than a hodgepodge of insurance companies

No, the federal government has a role. That role is clear in the constitution.

Why does anyone need to manage medical care? Why isn't your health your responsibility? Why should some pay and others get it free? Why do we need a new huge wasteful govt beaurocracy. Why should your insurance or the government pay for routine check ups and antibiotics for a sore throat?

We seem to think that someone other than us should be paying our medical bills.

 

[Vandalshandle]

Having mentioned my efficient government run water system and sewer system, I will add yet another example of efficient government. I am a member of my county's Sheriff Auxiliary Volunteers. This agency is run by my county sheriff's dept., and all 132 of us are supervised by one paid Lieutenant. We maintain and patrol 10 vehicles, patrol 363 days from 7 AM to 7 PM every year, and run approximately 30 separate community assistance programs, including keeping track of Alzheimer's victims, monitoring businesses in the community looking for after hour break ins, checking houses of people gone back to the North for the summer, running a scam squad, and too many other things to mention. We do this without a single dollar of funding from any government entity, federal, state, city, or county. We do it through community donations and unpaid volunteers. yet, we must maintain the same standards that apply to paid county employees, regarding compliance with state and federal laws. There is one of these organizations operating without taxpayer support, by most sheriffs departments in metropolitans areas of the USA.

 

[the_human_being]

You guys keep ranting about turning all of medicine over to the government. What has the government ever run efficiently? the post office? DOD? Social security? medicare? welfare? border security? the budget?

Why would you want to turn more of our economy over to them?

I think they're getting some monkeys drunk right now. Does that count?

 

[Kondor3]

We have the strongest military in the history of mankind, safe food and drugs, we went to the moon, we have made major strides in protecting our environment, government funded R&D in medicine, science and technology

I will take our government over any government on earth

Anyone want to argue with me?

Oh, nolo contendere...

However, even within the sampling domain of The Best that you cite here, there is great waste, and great fault, and great laziness, and great greed, and great inefficiency.

You can argue that one until you're blue in the face but it won't get you anywhere.

Show me a more efficient and effective government and we can start

Go at it

The challenge (in our own dialogue's narrow context) was not to show you a more efficient government by contrast.

The challenge (in that same context) was to posit (or deny) that our existing government is inefficient, oftentimes corrupt, and in need of much improvement.

I challenge which I accepted, and you keep dancing around (by the look of it, anyway).

 

[rightwinger]

We have the strongest military in the history of mankind, safe food and drugs, we went to the moon, we have made major strides in protecting our environment, government funded R&D in medicine, science and technology

I will take our government over any government on earth

Anyone want to argue with me?

I agree with you 100%. But we are 17 trillion dollars in debt. We have not achieved those things you mentioned with fiscal efficiency. Are you now, as a liberal, claiming that NASA and DOD have been run efficiently?

We are 17 trillion in debt because we are lazy and demand we get more services for less taxes

We are getting what we the people asked for

so we should just say WTF and continue the path to fiscal ruin???????????? is that your plan?

but you are dodging. I asked if you think NASA and DOD were run efficiently. care to answer?

NASA and DOD....absolutely

Given the uncharted R&D mission they have undertaken they are both efficient and effective

Haven't seen a better space program or defense

OMG, $200 dollar hammers. bridges to nowhere. weapons systems that the military does not want or need, NASA being used for muslim outreach.

what planet are you on?

We do not have. $200 hammers, bridges to nowhere do not come from NASA or DOD, they come from politicians in red states demanding pork

Weapons systems are the most complex on earth. If we can keep politics out of the process we could be more efficient

the $200 hammers were bought on a Navy contract. Last time I checked the Navy was part of DOD. When did California and New York become red states? more pork goes to them than many red states combined.

I spent my entire career in and around DOD and weapons systems. I have seen the waste first hand.

But you are trying to change the subject. The government has never done anything efficiently. Never, nothing. Good results do not mean they were achieved efficiently. Is our welfare and food stamp program run efficiently? of course not. Could the govt manage healthcare efficiently? ask the vets who died waiting for an appointment at the VA.

That $200 hammer contract was 30 years ago and was the result of an accounting method used on a huge defense contract. They never spent $200 on a hammer and they no longer uses that accounting method

 

[Londoner]

Problem is, the OP likely has more trust in government than most liberals.

He believed in the Iraq War, which came with a predicted expense that would stretch infinitely into the future.

He believed that BIG GOVERNMENT could effectively analyze the threat posed by Saddam Hussein, that is, he believed everything Bush said about Saddam's ties to 9/11, Al Qaeda and WMDs.

I'm guessing he believed that the Washington Defense Bureaucracy - the largest staff inside of Government, run ultimately by Bush - could stabilize Iraq, against predictions that there would be a never-ending wave of insurgents; against predictions that periods of relative calm would always been followed by uprisings because Washington cannot control an entire Arab region, despite the faith the OP likely has in Big Government. (You can blame Obama for losing the peace, but only a Big Government Republican like the OP would believe that Washington could prevent every insurgency from every country (Syria, Jordan, Pakistan, Iran, etc.,) from rising up and spilling into the Banana Republic created by Bush. We will always be sending troops back to Iraq, and the cost will destroy our grandchildren's future more than anything the petty and very diminished Hussein could have done)

This is why Libertarians don't trust Washington with BIG things, because it lacks the information and competency to control whole other contents. It's called the law of unintended consequences. (And don't tell me that Bush left it stable because that kind of ignorance is what created the war in the first place. Stability in the middle east is always temporary, especially when you replace whole governments)

If the OP doesn't trust big government....

If the OP doesn't think big government can run things effectively and efficiently....

If the OP doesn't think that Big Government can run a laundromat effectively and efficiently . . .

.... than why did he and his party give it the power to rebuild an entire Arab culture?

Whenever the OP's party controls Washington, it spends more than its Democratic predecessor. This is why Reagan tripled Carter's debt and Bush doubled Clinton's. Of course the Republicans blamed everyone but themselves for their big spending . . . but that is what they do.

Also, the OP sounds like a FOX News drone when he speaks about evil government versus the free market, as if those things are separate when you consider the lobbying efforts of the Koch brothers or any large player. I'm guessing the OP has not spent much time in a library or had much advanced education on this stuff. It would be nice to see the OP read the arguments and data for every point of view, and then come up with a thorough analysis of ALL the information on his own, rather than getting spoon-fed talking points from his media masters. This way he could give us more information to debate, not just bumper sticker fortune cookie mammer jammer. (I actually agree with some of the things the OP writes, but it's so tiresome to see the same posts repeated ad infinitum)

I urge the OP to revisit the the divide between evil government and the free market. Business has always gone begging to Washington for subsidies, bailouts, regulatory protection and infrastructure (roads, bridges, water & energy systems - to name only a fraction of what the market gets from Washington. This is not to mention the defense of global supply chains and trade routes). Our economy has always been run by a partnership between business and government - a partnership that business wants, and begs for, and lobbies to the tune of trillions per annum for. Boeing and aerospace technology wouldn't exist without the ultra-deep pockets of Government. Has the OP ever studied the subsidies given to our "free" market players. The biggest welfare has always gone to the special corporate interests who fund our elections and own our politicians. Our system is owned largely by our wealthiest capitalists. Do you know what happens to a Republican congressman who votes against the interests of Kochs' holdings? That congressman gets primaried and removed. This happens on both sides of the aisle. The market - its most powerful players - control Washington on more levels than the OP understands.

But let's talk about the OP's tireless single entendre assertion that government is bad, and only a hindrance. (I agree that it does many things terribly, but I see the issue as more complex than the OP) Does anyone really think the OP knows how much vital technology has come out of the state sector? Does anyone really think the OP knows about the technology that flowed from the Cold War Defense & NASA budget into the 80s consumer electronics boom? (This reprimand is equally aimed at Liberals, who under-report the benefits of military keynesianism. Reagan vastly improved the economy of Southern California by building up defense industrial capacity. People criticize him for the insane debt left by his excessive military spending - but so much of that spending put more workers and thus more consumers on main street. Ya' think the OP understands this? Reagan expanded the Federal workforce more than any of his contemporaries, and much more than Bush or Clinton, but those federal workers added to the aggregate purchasing power of the population, which kept many main street shops in business).

Again, though, the OP just lacks all the complicated information about how the government fits into the economy. Seriously, ask the OP to describe, say, where the satellite system came from, specifically what government sector lead its development and for what purpose. Secondly, ask the OP to describe how much private sector profit is made from our satellite system. Again, he wouldn't be able to tell you because FOX News, Rush Limbaugh, Mark Lavine, and Michael Savage never told him.

Pheonix would not exist but for the Hooever Damn and the trillion+ that flowed from government into the Colorado tributary. No single market player had the income for that kind of investment - this is why government did it - and yet the number of profit makers who benefit from that government planned infrastructure is a number that would blow the OPs mind. But of course the key is to use government effectively, and prevent it from taking over functions that it can't handle - and yes, this is a challenge that we have failed to meet. It will be a never ending problem, but it doesn't help when 1/2 the population can't name the things government has provided that help the economy, especially those things that our most powerful capitalists beg for with their army of lobbyists....

But yes, I agree with the OP. Government is inefficient, and it often lacks that information and incentive to create the kind of outcomes it promises. No shit. I just wish the OP could say something interesting or enlightening about this stuff.

 

[thereisnospoon]

You guys keep ranting about turning all of medicine over to the government. What has the government ever run efficiently? the post office? DOD? Social security? medicare? welfare? border security? the budget?

Why would you want to turn more of our economy over to them?

Call it "selective amnesia"...

 

[thereisnospoon]

Most of them.

Most of WHAT?

 

[bripat9643]

Most of them.

BWAHAHAHAHAHA!!!

 

[thereisnospoon]

Tens of thousands of babies in the 1950s-'60s were born with deformities like this from Thalidomide:​

Happened all over the world in over 40 countries. Didn't happen in the U.S.

Why not? Because the FDA put up a stop sign. And they were right.


This is Frances Kelsey of the FDA who put up that stop sign receiving the President's Award for Distinguished Citizen Service for doing that. She just turned 100 years old this summer.

​

I'm not sure what that has to do with "the economy" but there ya go.

That's not on point.
The issue is federal departments. Name ONE that does it's job within the confines of it's budget and on time...
Trillions of taxpayer dollars are wasted through waste fraud and abuse.
We have federal bureaucracies which are accountable to no one. We have federal departments which tell their workers to stay home( and get paid without having to take a PTO day) because it snows. We have departments ( The FAA is the biggest culprit)which operate with old technology.
We are paying for federal departments to administer and enforce rules and regulations( wage and hour laws or making sure social programs are not abused) and the work is NOT done.
We paying hundreds of millions of dollars to the Dept of the Interior so that the public property in and around Washington DC is properly maintained and landscaped and the National Mall looks like SHIT.
Some of the federal buildings ion DC and other places are literally falling apart. There is a budget to maintain these places....Where's he damned money?!!!!!
There are thousands of examples of misuse and abuse of taxpayer resources. And you people have the GALL to state "everything is fine"......

 

[bripat9643]

Tens of thousands of babies in the 1950s-'60s were born with deformities like this from Thalidomide:​

Happened all over the world in over 40 countries. Didn't happen in the U.S.

Why not? Because the FDA put up a stop sign. And they were right.


This is Frances Kelsey of the FDA who put up that stop sign receiving the President's Award for Distinguished Citizen Service for doing that. She just turned 100 years old this summer.

​

I'm not sure what that has to do with "the economy" but there ya go.

The German, British, Canadian, New Zealand and Australian governments all approved Thalidomide.

 

[bripat9643]

Tens of thousands of babies in the 1950s-'60s were born with deformities like this from Thalidomide:​

Happened all over the world in over 40 countries. Didn't happen in the U.S.

Why not? Because the FDA put up a stop sign. And they were right.


This is Frances Kelsey of the FDA who put up that stop sign receiving the President's Award for Distinguished Citizen Service for doing that. She just turned 100 years old this summer.

​

I'm not sure what that has to do with "the economy" but there ya go.

Great story, but off topic. Was the FDA efficient in banning that drug? "efficient" not "effective". DOD for the most part is effective, but it is never efficient.

How is it "effective" when thousands of people die every year because the FDA denies them life-saving drugs that haven't passed the billion dollar testing regime?

 

[bripat9643]

Tens of thousands of babies in the 1950s-'60s were born with deformities like this from Thalidomide:​

Happened all over the world in over 40 countries. Didn't happen in the U.S.

Why not? Because the FDA put up a stop sign. And they were right.


This is Frances Kelsey of the FDA who put up that stop sign receiving the President's Award for Distinguished Citizen Service for doing that. She just turned 100 years old this summer.

​

I'm not sure what that has to do with "the economy" but there ya go.

Additionally?

The safety record of American Airliners are remarkable. That's not because the captains of industry wish Americans to safely travel by air. That's because the Government has rigorous regulations in regards to air travel.

Then why did their safety record improve after the government deregulated them? Their safety record is entirely the result of their own efforts and procedures. The NTSB imposes new safety rules only after a serious accident has occurred. No airline or airframe manufacturer is stupid enough to continue a policy or design after it is known to be unsafe. You have to be retarded to believe they would. ValueJet went bankrupt after one of its planes went down in the Florida Everglades. That's why airlines are scrupulous about safety.

In typical libturd fashion, you give credit to the government it hasn't earned.

 

[bripat9643]

Tens of thousands of babies in the 1950s-'60s were born with deformities like this from Thalidomide:​

Happened all over the world in over 40 countries. Didn't happen in the U.S.

Why not? Because the FDA put up a stop sign. And they were right.


This is Frances Kelsey of the FDA who put up that stop sign receiving the President's Award for Distinguished Citizen Service for doing that. She just turned 100 years old this summer.

​

I'm not sure what that has to do with "the economy" but there ya go.

Additionally?

The safety record of American Airliners are remarkable. That's not because the captains of industry wish Americans to safely travel by air. That's because the Government has rigorous regulations in regards to air travel.

another dem/lib that does not know what "efficient" means. Yes, american airlines are pretty safe compared to those of maylaysia and kenya. But is the FAA efficient in its regulation of airlines? Is TSA an efficiently run agency? How about the border patrol? are we getting efficient effective border security from that govt agency?

Apparently YOU DON'T know what it means.

Efficiency in regards to running a government agency MEANS provisioning the right amount of RESOURCES to EFFECTIVELY get the job done.

If you DO NOT do that. Then you are NOT efficient.

Idiot.

Nope. Efficiency is getting the maximum result with the minimum cost. Typically, with government agencies, cost is no object, especially the costs they impose on private businesses.

 

[bripat9643]

Tens of thousands of babies in the 1950s-'60s were born with deformities like this from Thalidomide:​

Happened all over the world in over 40 countries. Didn't happen in the U.S.

Why not? Because the FDA put up a stop sign. And they were right.


This is Frances Kelsey of the FDA who put up that stop sign receiving the President's Award for Distinguished Citizen Service for doing that. She just turned 100 years old this summer.

​

I'm not sure what that has to do with "the economy" but there ya go.

Additionally?

The safety record of American Airliners are remarkable. That's not because the captains of industry wish Americans to safely travel by air. That's because the Government has rigorous regulations in regards to air travel.

another dem/lib that does not know what "efficient" means. Yes, american airlines are pretty safe compared to those of maylaysia and kenya. But is the FAA efficient in its regulation of airlines? Is TSA an efficiently run agency? How about the border patrol? are we getting efficient effective border security from that govt agency?

Apparently YOU DON'T know what it means.

Efficiency in regards to running a government agency MEANS provisioning the right amount of RESOURCES to EFFECTIVELY get the job done.

If you DO NOT do that. Then you are NOT efficient.

Idiot.

You really don't know what the word means do you.

efficient = capable of producing desired results without wasting materials, time, or energy.

Now, which goverment agency fits that definition?

Actually I do.

You don't.

I've owned and ran businesses. I work in the financial industry. I am a licensed practitioner of ITIL.

You have no fucking clue what you are talking about.

None.

What the hell is ITIL?

 

[bripat9643]

Tens of thousands of babies in the 1950s-'60s were born with deformities like this from Thalidomide:​

Happened all over the world in over 40 countries. Didn't happen in the U.S.

Why not? Because the FDA put up a stop sign. And they were right.


This is Frances Kelsey of the FDA who put up that stop sign receiving the President's Award for Distinguished Citizen Service for doing that. She just turned 100 years old this summer.

​

I'm not sure what that has to do with "the economy" but there ya go.

Additionally?

The safety record of American Airliners are remarkable. That's not because the captains of industry wish Americans to safely travel by air. That's because the Government has rigorous regulations in regards to air travel.

another dem/lib that does not know what "efficient" means. Yes, american airlines are pretty safe compared to those of maylaysia and kenya. But is the FAA efficient in its regulation of airlines? Is TSA an efficiently run agency? How about the border patrol? are we getting efficient effective border security from that govt agency?

Hey, you asked for an example, you got two --- now you want to "yeah but" cherrypick?

Poster please.

Your examples are bogus. The fact that the FDA had one success doesn't make it effective or efficient. The fact that airlines are safe has nothing whatsoever to do with the NTSB.

 

[thereisnospoon]

Tens of thousands of babies in the 1950s-'60s were born with deformities like this from Thalidomide:​

Happened all over the world in over 40 countries. Didn't happen in the U.S.

Why not? Because the FDA put up a stop sign. And they were right.


This is Frances Kelsey of the FDA who put up that stop sign receiving the President's Award for Distinguished Citizen Service for doing that. She just turned 100 years old this summer.

​

I'm not sure what that has to do with "the economy" but there ya go.

Additionally?

The safety record of American Airliners are remarkable. That's not because the captains of industry wish Americans to safely travel by air. That's because the Government has rigorous regulations in regards to air travel.

another dem/lib that does not know what "efficient" means. Yes, american airlines are pretty safe compared to those of maylaysia and kenya. But is the FAA efficient in its regulation of airlines? Is TSA an efficiently run agency? How about the border patrol? are we getting efficient effective border security from that govt agency?

Apparently YOU DON'T know what it means.

Efficiency in regards to running a government agency MEANS provisioning the right amount of RESOURCES to EFFECTIVELY get the job done.

If you DO NOT do that. Then you are NOT efficient.

Idiot.

Yeah? And who's fucking fault is THAT?
The federal government takes in every dime it needs to operate efficiently. because of political concerns, that does not happen. And you people demand that we the taxpayer or not forking over enough.
Our government operates on base line budgeting. Meaning all departments which are under non-discretionary finding rules receive mandated annual increases each fiscal year whether the Congress passes a budget or not.. Yet, many department heads claim year after year they simply do not have enough to spend.
We have been battling a so called war on poverty for over 70 years. Trillions of dollars spent on social programs that were designed as a hand up have turned into a hand out. And some $10 trillion later, we STILL have poverty. With all the money spent on social programs our government could cut a check for six figures to every poor person collecting a government check and STILL have money left over. Yet, we are told it's not enough.
We have an infinite number of dollars being paid to federal contractors who are late on their deadlines or are forced to start over on a project because something went amiss the first time( the Obamacare computer program is a great example) yet we are still paying these people. Yes, the company that wrote the programs and software for Obama care completely dropped the ball. They may as well have not done any work at all. The company was paid in full. That is ABSURD.
So you're claiming this is efficient government? That our elected officials and their agents are good stewards of the people's money?
No one is claiming these programs should end. No one is claiming government should not have departments such as Commerce, Treasury, Homeland Security or Law Enforcement. We taxpayers just want it done correctly.

 

[thereisnospoon]

Tens of thousands of babies in the 1950s-'60s were born with deformities like this from Thalidomide:​

Happened all over the world in over 40 countries. Didn't happen in the U.S.

Why not? Because the FDA put up a stop sign. And they were right.


This is Frances Kelsey of the FDA who put up that stop sign receiving the President's Award for Distinguished Citizen Service for doing that. She just turned 100 years old this summer.

​

I'm not sure what that has to do with "the economy" but there ya go.

Additionally?

The safety record of American Airliners are remarkable. That's not because the captains of industry wish Americans to safely travel by air. That's because the Government has rigorous regulations in regards to air travel.

another dem/lib that does not know what "efficient" means. Yes, american airlines are pretty safe compared to those of maylaysia and kenya. But is the FAA efficient in its regulation of airlines? Is TSA an efficiently run agency? How about the border patrol? are we getting efficient effective border security from that govt agency?

Apparently YOU DON'T know what it means.

Efficiency in regards to running a government agency MEANS provisioning the right amount of RESOURCES to EFFECTIVELY get the job done.

If you DO NOT do that. Then you are NOT efficient.

Idiot.

You really don't know what the word means do you.

efficient = capable of producing desired results without wasting materials, time, or energy.

Now, which goverment agency fits that definition?

Actually I do.

You don't.

I've owned and ran businesses. I work in the financial industry. I am a licensed practitioner of ITIL.

You have no fucking clue what you are talking about.

None.

How come you don't own a business now? Is it because your posts here were an example of your business model and your business failed?
And who gives a rat's ass if you work on Wall Street? What's that got to do with anything? Try again.