Can Atheists be Moral?

[Fort Fun Indiana]

Its proof to the self,

I.e., not proof, or even evidence.

 

[ding]

“I am the vine; you are the branches. If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. If you do not remain in me, you are like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned."

If you can believe, all things are possible to him who believes

Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent.”

Exactly. This is the power of faith. I cannot begin to explain how much it has transformed my life and the lives of those I love for the good of all.

I am really glad you are doing better. Kudos. I shudder at the thought of what you used to be like if praying to a matzo for spiritual life and perjuring yourself in the name of God is an improvement.

I doubt that you are glad.

Your dismissal of the power of faith was entirely predictable.

My dismissal of your professions of having faith in absurdities was entirely predictable because you know that what you profess to believe is a lie. You are beginning to suspect that I don't believe you. You are an amazing seer, a perfect reflection of that brazen, subtle, and very clever shining star of ancient days, the Nachash.

May I bring you some tea your highness?

No. Your dismissal of faith is because you don't believe in the supernatural. You are a secular humanist.

You try and give the perception that you aren't, but that is just a deception. Which is why you dodge the question do you believe that spirit created the material world. You think you are being clever about it but it is as obvious as the nose on my face.

 

[ding]

May I bring you some tea your highness?

There is nothing special about me. There is nothing special about any of us. We came from dust and we shall return to dust. We're just creatures.

 

[Fort Fun Indiana]

Your dismissal of faith is because you don't believe in the supernatural.

I would agree this is silly. Faith should be dismissed because it is absurd and deserves no respoect.

 

[ding]

The problem, ding, is that you attribute the wisdom to a deity with poor foundational proof,

I.e., not a shred of evidence whatsoever.

Wrong. Physical laws, biological laws and moral laws provide all the evidence you need.

If the universe were created through natural process and we are an accidental happenstance of matter and energy doing what matter and energy do, then there should be no expectation for absolute morals. Morals can be anything we want them to be. The problem is that nature does have a preference for an outcome. Societies and people which behave with virtue experience order and harmony. Societies and people which behave without virtue experience disorder and chaos. So we can see from the outcomes that not all behaviors have equal outcomes. That some behaviors have better outcomes and some behaviors have worse outcomes. This is the moral law at work. If the universe was created by spirit for the express purpose of creating beings that know and create we would expect that we would receive feedback on how we behave. The problem is that violating moral laws are not like violating physical laws. When we violate a physical law the consequences are immediate. If you try to defy gravity by jumping off a roof you will fall. Whereas the consequences for violating a moral law are more probabilistic in nature; many times we get away with it.

Morals are effectively standards. For any given thing there exists a standard which is the highest possible standard. This standard exists independent of anything else. It is in effect a universal standard. It exists for a reason. When we deviate from this standard and normalize our deviance from the standard, eventually the reason the standard exists will be discovered. The reason this happens is because error cannot stand. Eventually error will fail and the truth will be discovered. Thus proving that morals cannot be anything we want them to be but are indeed based upon some universal code of common decency that is independent of man.

So the question that naturally begs to be asked is if there is a universal code of common decency that is independent of man how come we all don't behave the same way when it comes to right and wrong? The reason man doesn't behave the same way is because of subjectivity. The difference between being objective and being subjective is bias. Bias is eliminated when there is no preference for an outcome. To eliminate a preference for an outcome one must have no thought of the consequences to one's self. If one does not practice this they will see subjective truth instead of objective truth. Subjective truth leads to moral relativism. Where consequences to self and preferences for an outcome leads to rationalizations of right and wrong.

Man does know right from wrong and when he violates it rather than abandoning the concept of right and wrong he rationalizes he did not violate it. You can see this behavior in almost all quarrels and disagreements. At the heart of every quarrel and disagreement is a belief in a universal right and wrong. So even though each side believes right to be different each side expects the other to believe their side should be universally known and accepted. It is this behavior which tells us there is an expectation for an absolute truth.

If there were never a universal truth that existed man would never have an expectation of fairness to begin with because fairness would have no meaning. The fact that each of us has an expectation of fairness and that we expect everyone else to follow ought to raise our suspicion on the origin of that expectation.

So no real proof, just personal opinion. Got it.

The proof you are so sorely seeking

Not backed up by a real science site, so just your personal opinion. Man, you sure suck at this.

Tell me what you disagree with and you back that up with what you believe is real science.

 

[hobelim]

If you can believe, all things are possible to him who believes

Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent.”

Exactly. This is the power of faith. I cannot begin to explain how much it has transformed my life and the lives of those I love for the good of all.

I am really glad you are doing better. Kudos. I shudder at the thought of what you used to be like if praying to a matzo for spiritual life and perjuring yourself in the name of God is an improvement.

I doubt that you are glad.

Your dismissal of the power of faith was entirely predictable.

My dismissal of your professions of having faith in absurdities was entirely predictable because you know that what you profess to believe is a lie. You are beginning to suspect that I don't believe you. You are an amazing seer, a perfect reflection of that brazen, subtle, and very clever shining star of ancient days, the Nachash.

May I bring you some tea your highness?

No. Your dismissal of faith is because you don't believe in the supernatural. You are a secular humanist.

You try and give the perception that you aren't, but that is just a deception. Which is why you dodge the question do you believe that spirit created the material world. You think you are being clever about it but it is as obvious as the nose on my face.

horseshit.

I read the Bible. What God is and what God is not is described in great detail.

What you profess to believe is a lie, not because I say so but because it contradicts what is written.

Anyone who can read and understand a sentence can see for themselves who is telling the truth.

You are a very stupid man.

 

[hobelim]

Your dismissal of faith is because you don't believe in the supernatural.

I would agree this is silly. Faith should be dismissed because it is absurd and deserves no respoect.

If he had any faith at all he would accept the evidence presented by reality every day and every night which to him, because reality contradicts everything he professes to believe, must seem like being in torment day and night in the fires of hell.

 

[ding]

Your dismissal of faith is because you don't believe in the supernatural.

I would agree this is silly. Faith should be dismissed because it is absurd and deserves no respoect.

Obviously you have never experienced the power of faith. Which is really odd because it's pretty common knowledge that if you don't believe you can accomplish something, you most likely can't. Not because you can't accomplish it, but because you don't believe you can.

I'm not trying to convince you of anything. I don't really care what happens to you in this life. I'm no saint. You probably deserve all the bad things you get in life because you have such a piss poor attitude about everything and your behaviors are that of a nazi.

But I really do want to thank you for admitting that you condemn respect for people of faith. Most militant atheists are too chicken shit to do that.

 

[ding]

Exactly. This is the power of faith. I cannot begin to explain how much it has transformed my life and the lives of those I love for the good of all.

I am really glad you are doing better. Kudos. I shudder at the thought of what you used to be like if praying to a matzo for spiritual life and perjuring yourself in the name of God is an improvement.

I doubt that you are glad.

Your dismissal of the power of faith was entirely predictable.

My dismissal of your professions of having faith in absurdities was entirely predictable because you know that what you profess to believe is a lie. You are beginning to suspect that I don't believe you. You are an amazing seer, a perfect reflection of that brazen, subtle, and very clever shining star of ancient days, the Nachash.

May I bring you some tea your highness?

No. Your dismissal of faith is because you don't believe in the supernatural. You are a secular humanist.

You try and give the perception that you aren't, but that is just a deception. Which is why you dodge the question do you believe that spirit created the material world. You think you are being clever about it but it is as obvious as the nose on my face.

horseshit.

I read the Bible. What God is and what God is not is described in great detail.

What you profess to believe is a lie, not because I say so but because it contradicts what is written.

Anyone who can read and understand a sentence can see for themselves who is telling the truth.

You are a very stupid man.

^ dunning effect

And you are dangerous because you discourage people to have a relationship with God for no other reason than it does not conform to your beliefs about God. God's a big boy. He doesn't need your help. See 2 Samuel 7:5.

 

[ding]

Your dismissal of faith is because you don't believe in the supernatural.

I would agree this is silly. Faith should be dismissed because it is absurd and deserves no respoect.

If he had any faith at all he would accept the evidence presented by reality every day and every night which to him, because reality contradicts everything he professes to believe, must seem like being in torment day and night in the fires of hell.

Speak for yourself. Your allies are atheists who don't believe in God at all. That says it all.

 

[hobelim]

May I bring you some tea your highness?

There is nothing special about me. There is nothing special about any of us. We came from dust and we shall return to dust. We're just creatures.

"we" came from the dust and "we" will return to dust..lol.. Exactly.

I come from God, and will return to paradise. See? I have other plans, so ya'll go and get on with it already.

 

[Moonglow]

May I bring you some tea your highness?

There is nothing special about me. There is nothing special about any of us. We came from dust and we shall return to dust. We're just creatures.

"we" came from the dust and "we" will return to dust..lol.. Exactly.

I come from God, and will return to paradise. See? I have other plans, so ya'll go and get on with it already.

So you are an agent for God or God impregnated yer Ma?

 

[hobelim]

Your dismissal of faith is because you don't believe in the supernatural.

I would agree this is silly. Faith should be dismissed because it is absurd and deserves no respoect.

If he had any faith at all he would accept the evidence presented by reality every day and every night which to him, because reality contradicts everything he professes to believe, must seem like being in torment day and night in the fires of hell.

Speak for yourself. Your allies are atheists who don't believe in God at all. That says it all.

Oh well. so what. In the end when Jesus floats down from the clouds to judge the living and the dead it will be far better to have been an atheist than to have wasted your life professing a belief in a false three in one edible god that never existed.

 

[Taz]

I.e., not a shred of evidence whatsoever.

Wrong. Physical laws, biological laws and moral laws provide all the evidence you need.

If the universe were created through natural process and we are an accidental happenstance of matter and energy doing what matter and energy do, then there should be no expectation for absolute morals. Morals can be anything we want them to be. The problem is that nature does have a preference for an outcome. Societies and people which behave with virtue experience order and harmony. Societies and people which behave without virtue experience disorder and chaos. So we can see from the outcomes that not all behaviors have equal outcomes. That some behaviors have better outcomes and some behaviors have worse outcomes. This is the moral law at work. If the universe was created by spirit for the express purpose of creating beings that know and create we would expect that we would receive feedback on how we behave. The problem is that violating moral laws are not like violating physical laws. When we violate a physical law the consequences are immediate. If you try to defy gravity by jumping off a roof you will fall. Whereas the consequences for violating a moral law are more probabilistic in nature; many times we get away with it.

Morals are effectively standards. For any given thing there exists a standard which is the highest possible standard. This standard exists independent of anything else. It is in effect a universal standard. It exists for a reason. When we deviate from this standard and normalize our deviance from the standard, eventually the reason the standard exists will be discovered. The reason this happens is because error cannot stand. Eventually error will fail and the truth will be discovered. Thus proving that morals cannot be anything we want them to be but are indeed based upon some universal code of common decency that is independent of man.

So the question that naturally begs to be asked is if there is a universal code of common decency that is independent of man how come we all don't behave the same way when it comes to right and wrong? The reason man doesn't behave the same way is because of subjectivity. The difference between being objective and being subjective is bias. Bias is eliminated when there is no preference for an outcome. To eliminate a preference for an outcome one must have no thought of the consequences to one's self. If one does not practice this they will see subjective truth instead of objective truth. Subjective truth leads to moral relativism. Where consequences to self and preferences for an outcome leads to rationalizations of right and wrong.

Man does know right from wrong and when he violates it rather than abandoning the concept of right and wrong he rationalizes he did not violate it. You can see this behavior in almost all quarrels and disagreements. At the heart of every quarrel and disagreement is a belief in a universal right and wrong. So even though each side believes right to be different each side expects the other to believe their side should be universally known and accepted. It is this behavior which tells us there is an expectation for an absolute truth.

If there were never a universal truth that existed man would never have an expectation of fairness to begin with because fairness would have no meaning. The fact that each of us has an expectation of fairness and that we expect everyone else to follow ought to raise our suspicion on the origin of that expectation.

So no real proof, just personal opinion. Got it.

The proof you are so sorely seeking

Not backed up by a real science site, so just your personal opinion. Man, you sure suck at this.

Tell me what you disagree with and you back that up with what you believe is real science.

You made the claim, it’s up to you to back it up.

 

[ding]

May I bring you some tea your highness?

There is nothing special about me. There is nothing special about any of us. We came from dust and we shall return to dust. We're just creatures.

"we" came from the dust and "we" will return to dust..lol.. Exactly.

I come from God, and will return to paradise. See? I have other plans, so ya'll go and get on with it already.

Technically everything came from God because God created the material world. But if you read the Bible it tells us that our father is Satan, right?

I figure there is zero chance of you understanding what this means but suffice it to say we are effectively creatures and to become adopted sons we literally have to renounce self and see reality and stop rationalizing our bad behaviors.

 

[RodISHI]

Your dismissal of faith is because you don't believe in the supernatural.

I would agree this is silly. Faith should be dismissed because it is absurd and deserves no respoect.

If he had any faith at all he would accept the evidence presented by reality every day and every night which to him, because reality contradicts everything he professes to believe, must seem like being in torment day and night in the fires of hell.

Speak for yourself. Your allies are atheists who don't believe in God at all. That says it all.

Oh well. so what. In the end when Jesus floats down from the clouds to judge the living and the dead it will be far better to have been an atheist than to have wasted your life professing a belief in a false three in one edible god that never existed.

You are typing in "the cloud".

 

[ding]

Wrong. Physical laws, biological laws and moral laws provide all the evidence you need.

If the universe were created through natural process and we are an accidental happenstance of matter and energy doing what matter and energy do, then there should be no expectation for absolute morals. Morals can be anything we want them to be. The problem is that nature does have a preference for an outcome. Societies and people which behave with virtue experience order and harmony. Societies and people which behave without virtue experience disorder and chaos. So we can see from the outcomes that not all behaviors have equal outcomes. That some behaviors have better outcomes and some behaviors have worse outcomes. This is the moral law at work. If the universe was created by spirit for the express purpose of creating beings that know and create we would expect that we would receive feedback on how we behave. The problem is that violating moral laws are not like violating physical laws. When we violate a physical law the consequences are immediate. If you try to defy gravity by jumping off a roof you will fall. Whereas the consequences for violating a moral law are more probabilistic in nature; many times we get away with it.

Morals are effectively standards. For any given thing there exists a standard which is the highest possible standard. This standard exists independent of anything else. It is in effect a universal standard. It exists for a reason. When we deviate from this standard and normalize our deviance from the standard, eventually the reason the standard exists will be discovered. The reason this happens is because error cannot stand. Eventually error will fail and the truth will be discovered. Thus proving that morals cannot be anything we want them to be but are indeed based upon some universal code of common decency that is independent of man.

So the question that naturally begs to be asked is if there is a universal code of common decency that is independent of man how come we all don't behave the same way when it comes to right and wrong? The reason man doesn't behave the same way is because of subjectivity. The difference between being objective and being subjective is bias. Bias is eliminated when there is no preference for an outcome. To eliminate a preference for an outcome one must have no thought of the consequences to one's self. If one does not practice this they will see subjective truth instead of objective truth. Subjective truth leads to moral relativism. Where consequences to self and preferences for an outcome leads to rationalizations of right and wrong.

Man does know right from wrong and when he violates it rather than abandoning the concept of right and wrong he rationalizes he did not violate it. You can see this behavior in almost all quarrels and disagreements. At the heart of every quarrel and disagreement is a belief in a universal right and wrong. So even though each side believes right to be different each side expects the other to believe their side should be universally known and accepted. It is this behavior which tells us there is an expectation for an absolute truth.

If there were never a universal truth that existed man would never have an expectation of fairness to begin with because fairness would have no meaning. The fact that each of us has an expectation of fairness and that we expect everyone else to follow ought to raise our suspicion on the origin of that expectation.

So no real proof, just personal opinion. Got it.

The proof you are so sorely seeking

Not backed up by a real science site, so just your personal opinion. Man, you sure suck at this.

Tell me what you disagree with and you back that up with what you believe is real science.

You made the claim, it’s up to you to back it up.

Ok, I will prove my point then. Here is a link to a video where a world renowned cosmologist explains what I have been telling you. It's slightly over 3 minutes long and I doubt you have ever even watched it.

You will dismiss it like you always do and you won't provide any evidence or links to support it. Checkmate.

 

[ding]

Your dismissal of faith is because you don't believe in the supernatural.

I would agree this is silly. Faith should be dismissed because it is absurd and deserves no respoect.

If he had any faith at all he would accept the evidence presented by reality every day and every night which to him, because reality contradicts everything he professes to believe, must seem like being in torment day and night in the fires of hell.

Speak for yourself. Your allies are atheists who don't believe in God at all. That says it all.

Oh well. so what. In the end when Jesus floats down from the clouds to judge the living and the dead it will be far better to have been an atheist than to have wasted your life professing a belief in a false three in one edible god that never existed.

Not so what. It is extremely telling that you side with atheists over people of faith.

And your response is some nonsense that is designed to make you seem like you have faith.

 

[hobelim]

May I bring you some tea your highness?

There is nothing special about me. There is nothing special about any of us. We came from dust and we shall return to dust. We're just creatures.

"we" came from the dust and "we" will return to dust..lol.. Exactly.

I come from God, and will return to paradise. See? I have other plans, so ya'll go and get on with it already.

So you are an agent for God or God impregnated yer Ma?

Are those the only two choices? I'll have to ask my mother if any strangers ever came to her window in the middle of the night to tell her she was chosen to have a special baby and then wham bam.

 

[ding]

^ proving my point that Hobelim has more in common with atheists than people of faith.