Can someone show me ONE liberal ideal that has actually worked?

[rdean]

No, its simpler than that.

The US Society was founded on a principle that it would be different and better than other modern societies. And until we tried so hard to be like all those other societies, we were.

Conservatives know that it is the rich who create jobs, who provide the money to build great university departments and hospital wings and museum exhibits and library extensions and fund great research foundations and help other companies grow by investing in them and provide the money for others to borrow. Without the rich, there would be much less opportunity for the poor.

Conservatives don't despise the rich. They understand their contribution to our society and appreciate a society in which everybody can aspire to become rich.

Liberals too often show their class envy when it comes to the rich. They rarely understand how anybody becomes rich, assume all did so unethically and dishonestly, and take a great deal of satisfaction in making the rich less rich. They also operate under the delusion that if we could somehow confiscate all the wealth of the rich, then everybody would be rich or at least richer.

It's really sad.

I blame the liberal education system.

It's that "liberal education system" that makes us the scientific and technological leaders of the world. Of course, Republicans are only 6% of US scientists and conservatives only 9%. Worse, if you look at the way the PEW Institute collected their data, they left out all University and College professors which mean the number is probably less than 6 and 9%.

What is that telling us?

It means Republicans depend on Democrats all out of proportion to their numbers.

It means Republicans have a disdain for education.

And finally, there is the very real possibility that there are more gay scientists than Republican scientists. Couldn't ya just die?

 

[The Rabbi]

Actually a very hefty percentage of "American" scientists were trained elsewhere, like Germany, India and China. So we can thank their education systems. They're here of course because all thsoe greedy businessmen pay very well so they come here.
I guess you can thank a CEO next time you find yourself shining his shoes for all those great inventions. Does it hurt yet?

 

[Ravi]

The US Society was founded on a principle that it would be different and better than other modern societies. And until we tried so hard to be like all those other societies, we were.

This is a silly thing to say. At the time of the American Revolution the vast majority of countries were monarchies/dictatorships and/or colonies of Britain, Spain, or France.

We have not tried to be like those other societies, rather, they have patterned themselves on us.

The real difference is that we are both the world's policeman and their savior. Cut out that, and our budget would be much smaller.

 

[Ravi]

Actually a very hefty percentage of "American" scientists were trained elsewhere, like Germany, India and China. So we can thank their education systems. They're here of course because all thsoe greedy businessmen pay very well so they come here.
I guess you can thank a CEO next time you find yourself shining his shoes for all those great inventions. Does it hurt yet?

Most of those countries do have better education systems...because they spend more on education. Are you suggesting we do the same?

 

[rightwinger]

Wow, thanks for the history lesson, Leftwinger. I guess before the advent of Big Government people were just dying in the streets like flies. There was no Salvation Army. There were no free hospitals. There were no mutual aid societies. No one ever made a charitable contribution and no one was ever supported by charitable contributions. It was pretty much law of the jungle.
Wow, glad you cleared that up for me. How did I ever get along without your misinformation?

Let me check there Rabbi.....

Yes, before big government, people WERE dying in the streets. Check out the streets during the Hoover administration, the Hoovervilles, people begging door to door, the treatment of veterans, the dust bowl, polio epidemic.....

Yes BIG Government made us into the modern society we are today.

 

[Ravi]

Wow, thanks for the history lesson, Leftwinger. I guess before the advent of Big Government people were just dying in the streets like flies. There was no Salvation Army. There were no free hospitals. There were no mutual aid societies. No one ever made a charitable contribution and no one was ever supported by charitable contributions. It was pretty much law of the jungle.
Wow, glad you cleared that up for me. How did I ever get along without your misinformation?

Let me check there Rabbi.....

Yes, before big government, people WERE dying in the streets. Check out the streets during the Hoover administration, the Hoovervilles, people begging door to door, the treatment of veterans, the dust bowl, polio epidemic.....

Yes BIG Government made us into the modern society we are today.

People dying on the street is a Republican ideal.

 

[rdean]

The Left would have everyone believe that if it were not for BIG GOVERNMENT nothing would get done: no free healthcare, no free meals, no assistence to the poor of any sort, no research and no cultural activities.
In fact the opposite is the case: without government there would be much more.

Without government, we would be Afghanistan.

The problem is too many people listen to dumbshit conservatives who believe "Noah's Ark" is a real historical event.

 

[emilynghiem]

How is public housing, allowing poor people to have a place to live, a failed policy?

The public housing program was not never designed to help the poor, but started out as a way to give govt money & jobs to contractors to keep them working during the Depression.

Like the public schools, the public housing is bureaucratic and corrupt without direct check by the taxpayers, much less the families herded through to get the federal funds.

I know this because I volunteered with residents who organized their own councils and even wrote their own corrective legislation to protect tenants rights and input in developing a proposed "campus plan" to convert public housing into sustainable residential colleges with service internships to break the cycle of poverty and abuse. These plans were not only censored by "competing" public housing officials, but the residents were evicted and housing torn down, so that contract money could go to people with conflicts of interest mixing government with private profiteers. Total abuse of public resources and power at taxpayers expense -- abused to deprive community residents of "inalienable" constitutional rights peaceably to assemble and to petition to redress legal grievances. Totally censored at at estimated cost of $25 million to taxpayers to demolish and reduce 1000 units to 500, instead of renovating all 1000 units into a campus with health services.

A neighbor is writing a book on this to expose the abuse of the African American community and voters. You can see the plans censored by government through unlawful evictions by abusing federal courts to bypass laws which would have protected the residents: http://www.houstonprogressive.org/campus94.html

Again I have firsthand knowledge as I witnessed these abuses, and paid thousands of dollars myself to return the head community leader back to the neighborhood after he and 10 families were evicted to demolish their plans despite protection under federal laws.

I only know 1 person who has benefited from public housing at this complex without constant fear of eviction or abuse, and even she had to fight bureaucratic rules that were counting her income as "too high" even though most of it was grants and donations to pay for her medical care and recovery as a paraplegic. There is not enough check on the government contract money that goes to cronies, even worse than the public schools.

Even fighting in federal court was doomed, because no lawyers would dare defend the poor residents against the will of corporate developers who fund and decide city elections.

Add to this demolition of entire vital old neighborhoods in the name of urban renewal. The people forced into the shiny new government projects unfortunately were unable to transfer the vitality and community spirit and support of those old neighborhoods. And the projects were soon rat infested slums that most of us would have nightmares if we had to live inone.

But in both cases, had the government provided tax incentives and worked to create favorable regulation for the private sector to provide low income housing, it would have been done far more efficiently, effectively, and compassionately. That would have been the conservative way.

Social security was well intentioned, but obviously it was not sustainable. And it has continued to drain the national resources even as it spirals out of control and cannot be maintained indefinitely. Tax incentives and favorable regulation that allows people to create and manage their own retirement funds in the private sector have been far more effecive and efficient. That is the conservative preference.

Programs to help and assist single moms and inner city poor were all well intentioned, but succeeded only in creating permanent under classes, almost intractable unemployment, and savaged the nuclear traditional family, especially among black Americans, even as it did little to alleviate poverty. Far better would have been providing tax incentives and favorable regulation to provide a path for people to become self sufficient, responsible, and successful contributors to society. That would be the conservative way.

So many liberal programs have been well intentioned and looked so noble on paper. In practice, however, I can't think of one that has been significantly successful.

The successful liberal programs I have found work in the private sector, as nonprofits or charitable outreach, based on voluntary funding, support and participation. Whether or not these can be transferred to government programs based on these models remains to be seen. Obama mentioned microcredit programs as a solution, but has yet to propose replacing current welfare with any kind of education based financing so it's not a handout.

 

[emilynghiem]

And just who would do the oversight?
The ones with the most money?

Human nature being what it is this will never work on a scale of any size.
Kickbacks, etc would abound.
Cops would be like gangsterts where you pay your protection money or bad things happen to you.

Sorry but I am a realist on this.

would be hard to explain, but I would have quite a bit of oversight built in at all levels as well as easy ways for people to go above each level to report on illegal activity

Dear Blu and USCitizen: You remind me of why I started distributing the local Houston Police Mission statement that calls for police to involve citizens in "all aspects of policing" defined as enforcing laws (democratic values under the Constitution), preserving peace and providing for a safe environment, without imposing judgment or punishment but treating all persons equitably. posted at ethics-commission.net (along with Code of Ethics I recommend all citizens and corporations enforce equally as government to stop corruption)

I do believe that a fully informed citizenry, trained in civil laws, Constitutional ethics, conflict resolution and defense is necessary to share equal power and responsibility for law enforcement and checking/correcting corruption or abuse. I do believe this level of democracy can be localized per district, and even forming local consensus on controversial laws such as drug legalization or immigration and restitution for past violations. That is the only way I see to get rid of the current crisis of violence, crime, abuse, bullying and corruption -- to empower local citizens to redress grievances directly until these are resolved by consensus, instead of relying on elected representatives and bureaucratic government which just compounds the problems and costs with added politics.

BTW all the "liberal" solutions I listed before incorporate this concept of local democracy:

So, let me ask again, what is ONE liberal Democratic policy that had positive results? Just one!!?? Liberal/progressive ideas that work to break the cycle of poverty and dependence on govt:

1. MICROLENDING instead of welfare handouts
Grameen Foundation | Combining the power of microfinance and technology to defeat global poverty.
Won the Nobel Prize in 2006. If you ask me, Obama's mother did more to earn the Nobel Prize than he did (she also was instrumental in setting up microlending in Indonesia)

2. Alternative Currency (more a Green idea, but still progressive/liberal)
Ithaca Hours - Local Currency - Ithaca, New York
Ithaca HOURs Online: Home Page

3. Students for Fair Trade/Students Against Sweatshops
Pushes for farmers to own and manage their own cooperatives, using the existing free enterprise/capitalist model but educating consumers to influence market forces freely

4. Any number of conflict resolution or violence prevention program, including recovery from abuse or addiction
* STAR / Success Through Addiction Recovery and "Drug Courts" that allow violators to keep working to support their families while undergoing rehab instead of sending to jail and putting their families on welfare
* No More Victims Inc (founder Marilyn Gambrell is featured in a Lifetime cable movie and also her program to get kids of incarcerated parents through school and into college instead of going to jail was featured on CNN and MTV)
* Center for the Healing of Racism
Heal Racism, Fight Prejudice | Houston, TX
http://www.houstonprogressive.org
Moderates and teaches forums for people to address their own personal issues and healing from racial, religious or political divisions instead of projecting blame on "other groups" seen as representing the problem

5. Pacifica Radio/public radio foundation
Instrumental in organizing local liberal/progressive activities in peace and justice; and fighting to stop the threat of media conglomerates monopolizing the industry.

 

[Dr Gregg]

Actually a very hefty percentage of "American" scientists were trained elsewhere, like Germany, India and China. So we can thank their education systems. They're here of course because all thsoe greedy businessmen pay very well so they come here.
I guess you can thank a CEO next time you find yourself shining his shoes for all those great inventions. Does it hurt yet?

Bullshit, they come to america and get their college and post-graduate work. THey may have better primary schools but many flock here for a superior colleges

 

[☭proletarian☭]

I think it's "50" sheckles.

Deuteronomy 22:28-29 NLT
If a man is caught in the act of raping a young woman who is not engaged, he must pay fifty pieces of silver to her father. Then he must marry the young woman because he violated her, and he will never be allowed to divorce her.

My bad, I was thinking of the price of god...

God costs less than a virgin woman?

Those priests got a damned good deal!

Oh no, you were right. Sorry.

Either way, the point remains valid, the exact price notwithstanding.

 

[The Rabbi]

Wow, thanks for the history lesson, Leftwinger. I guess before the advent of Big Government people were just dying in the streets like flies. There was no Salvation Army. There were no free hospitals. There were no mutual aid societies. No one ever made a charitable contribution and no one was ever supported by charitable contributions. It was pretty much law of the jungle.
Wow, glad you cleared that up for me. How did I ever get along without your misinformation?

Let me check there Rabbi.....

Yes, before big government, people WERE dying in the streets. Check out the streets during the Hoover administration, the Hoovervilles, people begging door to door, the treatment of veterans, the dust bowl, polio epidemic.....

Yes BIG Government made us into the modern society we are today.

You're using the worst depression in history as the baseline? Talk about flack.
And who was it treating the veterans so? Was it not the Federal government and Douglas MacArthur?
And do people not die in the streets today? Of course they do.
No, Leftwinger. You've failed again. Truth is your worst enemy.

 

[The Rabbi]

Actually a very hefty percentage of "American" scientists were trained elsewhere, like Germany, India and China. So we can thank their education systems. They're here of course because all thsoe greedy businessmen pay very well so they come here.
I guess you can thank a CEO next time you find yourself shining his shoes for all those great inventions. Does it hurt yet?

Most of those countries do have better education systems...because they spend more on education. Are you suggesting we do the same?

No they do not spend more on education. Do you have some proof for your assertion?

 

[☭proletarian☭]

Good points all.
Look at a Youtube video titled something like Must See on Detroit. It details how the very neighborhoods in detroit that are abandoned and dangerous were the subject of "model cities" programs in the 1960s.
The more gov't tries to "solve the problem" the worse they make the problem.

If the blacks would put down the crackpipes, their neighborhoods wouldn't be crack-infested slums.

 

[☭proletarian☭]

The Right seems to redefine 'conservative' and 'liberal' whenever it turns out they were on the wrong side of history.

 

[The Rabbi]

Good points all.
Look at a Youtube video titled something like Must See on Detroit. It details how the very neighborhoods in detroit that are abandoned and dangerous were the subject of "model cities" programs in the 1960s.
The more gov't tries to "solve the problem" the worse they make the problem.

If the blacks would put down the crackpipes, their neighborhoods wouldn't be crack-infested slums.

What can one say to a post so obvious and oblivious at the same time? Congratulations. I am speechless at your stupidity.

 

[☭proletarian☭]

Conservatives are very big on libraries.

So conservatives are very big on publicly owned property paid for by taxes and administered by the government?


There's a word for that....

 

[☭proletarian☭]

Good points all.
Look at a Youtube video titled something like Must See on Detroit. It details how the very neighborhoods in detroit that are abandoned and dangerous were the subject of "model cities" programs in the 1960s.
The more gov't tries to "solve the problem" the worse they make the problem.

If the blacks would put down the crackpipes, their neighborhoods wouldn't be crack-infested slums.

What can one say to a post so obvious and oblivious at the same time? Congratulations. I am speechless at your stupidity.

I thought conservatives were supposed to all for personal responsibility?

 

[☭proletarian☭]

Public libraries are a good idea.

I dont recall which liberal pushed for them in the 1960s however.

Probably since it's more of a socialist idea than a liberal one

 

[The Rabbi]

Public libraries are a good idea.

I dont recall which liberal pushed for them in the 1960s however.

Probably since it's more of a socialist idea than a liberal one

That would explain why it was pushed by that big socialist Ben Franklin.