Can we heal the divide?

[TruthNotBS]

If we do resort to civil war, you're right about the cause; it will be entitled vs non entitled.

What will set it off though won't be wanton hatred...it will be when resources are beginning to get profoundly scarce. If you recall the wildfires in California a couple of years ago, there was a widely reported story of the Kardashians utilizing private firefighters to defend their compound. Hiring private _____ has been a very long tradition from chefs to hit men. The thing is that the chefs are not utilizing thousands of gallons of a resource to feed one person; the firefighters do. As our politics go, the rich and entitled get their voices heard--thanks Citizens United--and those without money do not. So the real test is going to arise when we are again in a crisis and there will be a question of who gets the resources to deal with the crisis. In the past, the politicians have usually done the right thing--what helps the most people. Will that continue?

Kim Kardashian’s Private Firefighters Expose America’s Fault Lines

“Rich people don’t get their own ‘better’ firefighters, or at least they aren’t supposed to.”

www.theatlantic.com

It will be the wealthy self-entitled leeches, who live off of other people's labor, receiving tens of billions of dollars in public funds:

RANK	PARENT	SUBSIDY VALUE	NUMBER OF AWARDS
1	Boeing	$15,502,641,455	957
2	Intel	$8,360,460,516	128
3	Ford Motor	$7,742,056,086	703
4	General Motors	$7,550,136,090	786
5	Micron Technology	$6,856,681,915	19
6	Amazon.com	$5,802,700,434	455
7	Alcoa	$5,727,691,764	134
8	Cheniere Energy	$5,617,152,523	43
9	Foxconn Technology Group (Hon Hai Precision Industry Company)	$4,820,110,112	74
10	Texas Instruments	$4,286,328,869	69
11	Volkswagen	$3,977,630,513	216
12	Sempra Energy	$3,878,692,264	51
13	NRG Energy	$3,405,383,876	264
14	Venture Global LNG	$3,285,883,566	6
15	NextEra Energy	$3,008,691,129	116
16	Sasol	$2,836,049,845	72
17	Tesla Inc.	$2,829,855,494	114
18	Stellantis	$2,795,436,436	213
19	Nucor	$2,538,761,123	176
20	Walt Disney	$2,483,328,762	255
21	Iberdrola	$2,380,558,984	110
22	Hyundai Motor	$2,349,743,470	18
23	Oracle	$2,272,418,288	96
24	Shell PLC	$2,211,676,001	132
25	Samsung	$2,178,196,443	83
26	Mubadala Investment Company	$2,124,035,097	62
27	Toyota	$2,111,010,689	239
28	Nike	$2,104,917,829	153
29	Meta Platforms Inc.	$2,098,261,272	82
30	Alphabet Inc.	$2,054,325,527	125
31	Comcast	$2,032,609,740	398
32	Paramount Global	$1,973,256,854	336
33	Brookfield Corporation	$1,969,735,585	287
34	Exxon Mobil	$1,906,554,975	227
35	Apple Inc.	$1,900,308,359	63
36	Nissan	$1,892,314,165	98
37	Berkshire Hathaway	$1,838,569,373	1,194
38	Summit Power	$1,783,593,414	6
39	General Electric	$1,779,446,759	998
40	JPMorgan Chase	$1,762,150,650	1,151
41	Cleveland-Cliffs	$1,705,497,604	129
42	Southern Company	$1,694,958,172	45
43	Energy Transfer	$1,680,794,666	156
44	Vornado Realty Trust	$1,623,857,336	33
45	Duke Energy	$1,580,421,869	86
46	Wolfspeed Inc.	$1,564,430,563	64
47	Rivian Automotive Inc.	$1,536,054,012	5
48	IBM Corp.	$1,519,901,697	368
49	General Atomics	$1,505,785,957	111
50	OGE Energy	$1,427,570,182	15
51	SCS Energy	$1,419,011,796	5
52	Panasonic	$1,384,147,584	61
53	Microsoft	$1,366,243,159	113
54	Lockheed Martin	$1,337,674,082	323
55	Sagamore Development	$1,320,000,000	2
56	Northrop Grumman	$1,275,514,883	284
57	Corning Inc.	$1,269,303,359	400
58	Vingroup	$1,254,000,000	1
59	Continental AG	$1,244,875,478	111
60	RTX Corporation	$1,166,657,132	781
61	SK Holdings	$1,081,550,283	9
62	Valero Energy	$1,053,812,692	207
63	Dow Inc.	$1,049,354,213	640
64	AES Corp.	$1,039,510,135	136
65	Air Products & Chemicals	$1,025,557,482	88
66	Exelon	$986,892,877	98
67	CF Industries	$982,271,715	129
68	Pyramid Companies	$973,565,278	93
69	SkyWest	$922,686,541	339
70	Centene	$916,607,054	59
71	Mazda Toyota Manufacturing, U.S.A., Inc.	$900,000,000	1
72	Apollo Global Management	$891,705,089	592
73	LG	$883,168,466	88
74	Delta Air Lines	$871,485,833	13
75	Jefferies Financial Group	$871,137,335	16
76	Bayer	$852,475,226	217
77	Honda	$849,832,301	92
78	Shin-Etsu Chemical	$828,683,936	106
79	Enterprise Products Partners	$826,988,371	89
80	SunEdison	$817,425,725	115
81	Goldman Sachs	$800,873,386	253
82	Bank of America	$796,947,128	953
83	E.ON	$786,865,473	40
84	Warner Bros. Discovery Inc.	$772,994,690	218
85	EDF-Electricite de France	$766,205,550	36
86	Triple Five Worldwide	$748,000,000	4
87	EDP-Energias de Portugal	$733,674,868	14
88	Related Companies	$714,675,504	8
89	Koch Industries	$676,761,373	498
90	Caithness Energy	$672,688,888	30
91	Dell Technologies	$658,417,951	185
92	Wells Fargo	$657,333,216	542
93	FedEx	$647,035,546	632
94	Entergy	$638,533,387	235
95	OCI N.V.	$627,879,406	5
96	Chevron Phillips Chemical	$619,839,444	20
97	Bedrock Detroit	$618,000,000	1
98	Dominion Energy	$615,436,089	79
99	Eli Lilly	$601,741,368	77

vs those who work for a living.

 

[Mac-7]

It will be the wealthy self-entitled leeches, who live off of other people's labor, receiving tens of billions of dollars in public funds:

RANK	PARENT	SUBSIDY VALUE	NUMBER OF AWARDS
1	Boeing	$15,502,641,455	957
2	Intel	$8,360,460,516	128
3	Ford Motor	$7,742,056,086	703
4	General Motors	$7,550,136,090	786
5	Micron Technology	$6,856,681,915	19
6	Amazon.com	$5,802,700,434	455
7	Alcoa	$5,727,691,764	134
8	Cheniere Energy	$5,617,152,523	43
9	Foxconn Technology Group (Hon Hai Precision Industry Company)	$4,820,110,112	74
10	Texas Instruments	$4,286,328,869	69
11	Volkswagen	$3,977,630,513	216
12	Sempra Energy	$3,878,692,264	51
13	NRG Energy	$3,405,383,876	264
14	Venture Global LNG	$3,285,883,566	6
15	NextEra Energy	$3,008,691,129	116
16	Sasol	$2,836,049,845	72
17	Tesla Inc.	$2,829,855,494	114
18	Stellantis	$2,795,436,436	213
19	Nucor	$2,538,761,123	176
20	Walt Disney	$2,483,328,762	255
21	Iberdrola	$2,380,558,984	110
22	Hyundai Motor	$2,349,743,470	18
23	Oracle	$2,272,418,288	96
24	Shell PLC	$2,211,676,001	132
25	Samsung	$2,178,196,443	83
26	Mubadala Investment Company	$2,124,035,097	62
27	Toyota	$2,111,010,689	239
28	Nike	$2,104,917,829	153
29	Meta Platforms Inc.	$2,098,261,272	82
30	Alphabet Inc.	$2,054,325,527	125
31	Comcast	$2,032,609,740	398
32	Paramount Global	$1,973,256,854	336
33	Brookfield Corporation	$1,969,735,585	287
34	Exxon Mobil	$1,906,554,975	227
35	Apple Inc.	$1,900,308,359	63
36	Nissan	$1,892,314,165	98
37	Berkshire Hathaway	$1,838,569,373	1,194
38	Summit Power	$1,783,593,414	6
39	General Electric	$1,779,446,759	998
40	JPMorgan Chase	$1,762,150,650	1,151
41	Cleveland-Cliffs	$1,705,497,604	129
42	Southern Company	$1,694,958,172	45
43	Energy Transfer	$1,680,794,666	156
44	Vornado Realty Trust	$1,623,857,336	33
45	Duke Energy	$1,580,421,869	86
46	Wolfspeed Inc.	$1,564,430,563	64
47	Rivian Automotive Inc.	$1,536,054,012	5
48	IBM Corp.	$1,519,901,697	368
49	General Atomics	$1,505,785,957	111
50	OGE Energy	$1,427,570,182	15
51	SCS Energy	$1,419,011,796	5
52	Panasonic	$1,384,147,584	61
53	Microsoft	$1,366,243,159	113
54	Lockheed Martin	$1,337,674,082	323
55	Sagamore Development	$1,320,000,000	2
56	Northrop Grumman	$1,275,514,883	284
57	Corning Inc.	$1,269,303,359	400
58	Vingroup	$1,254,000,000	1
59	Continental AG	$1,244,875,478	111
60	RTX Corporation	$1,166,657,132	781
61	SK Holdings	$1,081,550,283	9
62	Valero Energy	$1,053,812,692	207
63	Dow Inc.	$1,049,354,213	640
64	AES Corp.	$1,039,510,135	136
65	Air Products & Chemicals	$1,025,557,482	88
66	Exelon	$986,892,877	98
67	CF Industries	$982,271,715	129
68	Pyramid Companies	$973,565,278	93
69	SkyWest	$922,686,541	339
70	Centene	$916,607,054	59
71	Mazda Toyota Manufacturing, U.S.A., Inc.	$900,000,000	1
72	Apollo Global Management	$891,705,089	592
73	LG	$883,168,466	88
74	Delta Air Lines	$871,485,833	13
75	Jefferies Financial Group	$871,137,335	16
76	Bayer	$852,475,226	217
77	Honda	$849,832,301	92
78	Shin-Etsu Chemical	$828,683,936	106
79	Enterprise Products Partners	$826,988,371	89
80	SunEdison	$817,425,725	115
81	Goldman Sachs	$800,873,386	253
82	Bank of America	$796,947,128	953
83	E.ON	$786,865,473	40
84	Warner Bros. Discovery Inc.	$772,994,690	218
85	EDF-Electricite de France	$766,205,550	36
86	Triple Five Worldwide	$748,000,000	4
87	EDP-Energias de Portugal	$733,674,868	14
88	Related Companies	$714,675,504	8
89	Koch Industries	$676,761,373	498
90	Caithness Energy	$672,688,888	30
91	Dell Technologies	$658,417,951	185
92	Wells Fargo	$657,333,216	542
93	FedEx	$647,035,546	632
94	Entergy	$638,533,387	235
95	OCI N.V.	$627,879,406	5
96	Chevron Phillips Chemical	$619,839,444	20
97	Bedrock Detroit	$618,000,000	1
98	Dominion Energy	$615,436,089	79
99	Eli Lilly	$601,741,368	77

vs those who work for a living.

vs those who work for a living.

Your list of companies reminds me of the Jimmy Strwart movie “Its A Wonderful Life”

Because almost all the tax money you complain about was was aimed at creating jobs or national defense

Unfortunately I dont have an angel to remind you how things would look without the results that money produced

But rest assured every American benefited from it

 

[TruthNotBS]

vs those who work for a living.

Your list of companies reminds me of the Jimmy Strwart movie “Its A Wonderful Life”

Because almost all the tax money you complain about was was aimed at creating jobs, national defense, or finding cures for horrible diseases

Unfortunately I dont have an angel to remind you how things would look without the results that money produced

But rest assured every American benefited from it

You're simply admitting that capitalism relies heavily on public funding to survive. Jobs don't rely on capitalists, because the government can very easily employ everyone who needs a job. Companies often create the conditions for war, in order to make money. They make sure the US always has a boogieman or enemy to worry about because that's how they turn a profit. Creating enemies for the US, by making sure the media demonizes another country, scaring Americans into thinking they need to spend more on defense.

When I was a 76-Yankee, Unit Supply Specialist in the US Army, back in the early 90s, we were paying $88 for a screwdriver that anyone could buy at Home Depot for less than ten bucks. That's the corruption that our government is subjected to under crony capitalism. Cronyism is endemic to capitalism and unavoidable.

If the rich have socialism, then the working class can have some socialism too. After all, it's the working class that risks life and limb in the workplace every day for their capitalist masters, so society should provide them with the infrastructure necessary to survive and thrive. Affordable housing, public transit, healthcare, education..etc. If the rich are going to get their subsidies and bailouts, the working class, are likewise going to get theirs.

 

[Mac-7]

You're simply admitting that capitalism relies heavily on public funding to survive.

Yeah, I suppose so

Just as Jimmy Stewart’s town depended on his bank to avoid a much more horrible future

Btw: the soviet and communist chinese boogyman you sneer at is real

 

[Mac-7]

You're simply admitting that capitalism relies heavily on public funding to survive. Jobs don't rely on capitalists, because the government can very easily employ everyone who needs a job. Companies often create the conditions for war, in order to make money. They make sure the US always has a boogieman or enemy to worry about because that's how they turn a profit. Creating enemies for the US, by making sure the media demonizes another country, scaring Americans into thinking they need to spend more on defense.

When I was a 76-Yankee, Unit Supply Specialist in the US Army, back in the early 90s, we were paying $88 for a screwdriver that anyone could buy at Home Depot for less than ten bucks. That's the corruption that our government is subjected to under crony capitalism. Cronyism is endemic to capitalism and unavoidable.

If the rich have socialism, then the working class can have some socialism too. After all, it's the working class that risks life and limb in the workplace every day for their capitalist masters, so society should provide them with the infrastructure necessary to survive and thrive. Affordable housing, public transit, healthcare, education..etc. If the rich are going to get their subsidies and bailouts, the working class, are likewise going to get theirs.

And, all the free stuff you demand is not needed from government when the public have jobs so they can buy it for themselves

 

[22lcidw]

what are the chances of that happening when both sides spend all their time and energy convincing their followers the other side is of the Devil?

Perhaps, however the Prog side has legalized the Devil's ways of living to excessiveness. If people are not Progs and do these things, the downside to what happens is not mentioned as always and the hypocrite words show up as always. The costs for this keep rising. And the taxpayers and people who do not cost much to survive pay the freight for those who cannot or live without any regard to health.

 

[TruthNotBS]

Yeah, I suppose so

Just as Jimmy Stewarts town depended on his bank to avoid a much more horrible future

Btw: the soviet and communist chinese boogyman you sneer at is real

Well, you Republicans are always accusing American Democrats of being "socialists" because they want to fund social programs and provide public services. If capitalism relies so heavily on socialism perhaps we should adopt socialism. Stop trying to make capitalism work with socialism and just go with socialism. Especially today with all of the advanced technology that we have available. The working class would be working less under socialism and would meet all of its needs while having more democracy in the workplace and politically.

Soviets don't exist anymore and they weren't nearly as bad as they were portrayed:

​

I like the movie, but it was mostly a bunch of Cold War hogwash propaganda. Fearmongering about the Soviet boogieman who supposedly wants to invade us. Soviets didn't want to invade us or Western Europe.

​

Due to advanced 21st-century automation, artificial intelligence, quantum computing and nanotech, we're going to be forced by necessity to adopt a non-profit, marketless, centrally planned, more democratic system of mass production. That's the nature of human progress. When technology significantly reduces wage-labor, that's when high-tech, democratic socialism saves the day.

​

Just as you admitted that capitalism can't survive without socialism. I'm not saying this to "rub it in", and make you feel bad or dumb, this is just the laws of physics and economics. America has been brainwashed against socialism. You're not stupid, you're just a victim of years of Cold War propaganda.

China isn't our enemy, we could become friends with China and Russia and transform this world into paradise. But the capitalist ruling class in our country, doesn't want the American working class discovering the truth about socialism.

 

[TruthNotBS]

And, all the free stuff you demand is not needed from government when the public have jobs so they can buy it for themselves

Nothing is free, it requires labor. So your silly claim that socialists want "free stuff", is absurd, especially when it's the capitalists who are receiving tens of billions in subsidies every year from the government. We just don't need to rely on markets or capitalists for anything, and your insistence that we do underscores your ignorance of economics and how technology affects production.

The #1 source of bankruptcy in America today is medical bills. People losing their homes over medical bills. None of that is going to happen with democratic socialism. We're the only country in the industrialized, modern world, that refuses to provide healthcare to its citizens as a human right. Same for education and other services. These other countries save on healthcare and have better outcomes.

 

[Mac-7]

Well, you Republicans are always accusing American Democrats of being "socialists" because they want to fund social programs and provide public services. If capitalism relies so heavily on socialism perhaps we should adopt socialism. Stop trying to make capitalism work with socialism and just go with socialism. Especially today with all of the advanced technology that we have available. The working class would be working less under socialism and would meet all of its needs while having more democracy in the workplace and politically.

Soviets don't exist anymore and they weren't nearly as bad as they were portrayed:

​

I like the movie, but it was mostly a bunch of Cold War hogwash propaganda. Fearmongering about the Soviet boogieman who supposedly wants to invade us. Soviets didn't want to invade us or Western Europe.

​

Due to advanced 21st-century automation, artificial intelligence, quantum computing and nanotech, we're going to be forced by necessity to adopt a non-profit, marketless, centrally planned, more democratic system of mass production. That's the nature of human progress. When technology significantly reduces wage-labor, that's when high-tech, democratic socialism saves the day.

​

Just as you admitted that capitalism can't survive without socialism. I'm not saying this to "rub it in", and make you feel bad or dumb, this is just the laws of physics and economics. America has been brainwashed against socialism. You're not stupid, you're just a victim of years of Cold War propaganda.

China isn't our enemy, we could become friends with China and Russia and transform this world into paradise. But the capitalist ruling class in our country, doesn't want the American working class discovering the truth about socialism.

I dont agree that giving tax incentives to private companies to locate their factory in a particular state is socialism

karl Marx never advocated such a thing

And communist china is our enemy

Or at least it’s my enemy since I dont want America to become a communist country under the thumb of Biijing

 

[TruthNotBS]

I dont agree that giving tax incentives to private companies to locate their factory in a particular state is socialism

karl Marx never advocated such a thing

And communist china is our enemy

Or at least it’s my enemy since I dont want America to become a communist country under the thumb of Biijing

Obviously, it's not just "tax incentives", it's all types of subsidies, grants, and bailout money from the government.

Marx was clear that markets and capitalists could exist under socialism in the beginning stages of its development into communism. There can be a transition period, from a well-regulated market economy to a non-profit, marketless economy. When the government does anything, to serve the working class, Republican conservatives start shouting "socialism!", "commie!", but when that same government gives billions to wealthy capitalists, that's not socialism or communism, it's just the government helping capitalists capitalize (make money). There's nothing wrong with that, right? Only when the government provides services to the public is it "socialism!", not when it deposits billions in subsidies in the checking accounts of the wealthy.

There's no reason to believe that America would ever be under the thumb of China or any other country, even if it adopts a marketless, socialist economy.

 

[Mac-7]

Obviously, it's not just "tax subsidies", it's all types of subsidies, grants, and bailout money from the government.

Marx was clear that markets and capitalists could exist under socialism in the beginning stages of its development into communism. There can be a transition period, from a well-regulated market economy to a non-profit, marketless economy. When the government does anything, to serve the working class, Republican conservatives start shouting "socialism!", "commie!", but when that same government gives billions to wealthy capitalists, that's not socialism or communism, it's just the government helping capitalists capitalize (make money). There's nothing wrong with that, right? Only when the government provides services to the public is it "socialism!", not when it deposits billions in subsidies in the checking accounts of the wealthy.

There's no reason to believe that America would ever be under the thumb of China or any other country, even if it adopts a marketless, socialist economy.

Talking to you is depressing

Fortunately Marxism’s historical failures prevent it from ever becoming a choice for most people

 

[TruthNotBS]

Talking to you is depressing

Fortunately Marxism’s historical failures prevent it from ever becoming a choice for most people

You're delusional. The younger generation today is mostly socialist. They know that advanced automation and AI require socialism. Even billionaires are begging the government now to give everyone a UBI i.e. Universal Basic Income. They see the writing on the wall for capitalism.

 

[Mac-7]

You're delusional. The younger generation today is mostly socialist. They know that advanced automation and AI require socialism.

I could have been convinced that socialism was the answer when I was their age

But most of us live and learn

 

[TruthNotBS]

I could have been convinced that socialism was the answer when I was their age

But most of us live and learn

You were just brainwashed by capitalist Cold War propaganda. Capitalism relies on wages. Significantly reduce wages or eliminate them and socialism is necessary. You can delude yourself and think otherwise, but those who think rationally know that advanced automation and artificial intelligence require socialism to maintain an economy. No wage-labor or not enough of it = no paying consumers or not enough customers = no market or not a large enough market worth investing in = no capitalism = socialism.

 

[Faun]

and the left will bring us together by attempting to imprison political opponents eh ?

Cries a member of the herd who chanted, "lock her up!"

 

[Mac-7]

You were just brainwashed by capitalist Cold War propaganda. Capitalism relies on wages. Significantly reduce wages or eliminate them and socialism is necessary. You can delude yourself and think otherwise, but those who think rationally know that advanced automation and artificial intelligence require socialism to maintain an economy. No wage-labor or not enough of it = no paying consumers or not enough customers = no market or not a large enough market worth investing in = no capitalism = socialism.

We are not going to agree on this

You accept the communist lie and I dont

 

[Mac-7]

Cries a member of the herd who chanted, "lock her up!"

Trump was complaining about how Hillary was treated as opposed to regular Americans

Now the left is at it again

 

[TruthNotBS]

We are not going to agree on this

You accept the communist lie and I dont

You're just suffering from cognitive dissonance, unable to come to terms with reality.

 

[Mac-7]

You're just suffering from cognitive dissonance, unable to come to terms with reality.

Yeah, maybe so

But from where I sit you are the one with delusions

 

[Faun]

Trump was complaining about how Hillary was treated as opposed to regular Americans

Now the left is at it again

2016: Lock her up!!

2020: Trump, 2020, fuck your feelings!

2024: Mommy! The left is being mean to us.