Can we ignore the partisan bickering and discuss mass murder?

[Claudette]

Nice try at diversion, but the topic isn't "gun deaths", it's "mass murder". And amazingly enough, the UK's gun laws have NOT stopped people from murdering each other, mass-murdering each other, spree-killing each other, serial-killing each other, and even shooting each other.

But thanks for answering the OP's question by proving that we can't, in fact, have a non-partisan discussion of the true causes behind heinous crimes.

In fact, after England banned guns in 1997, their rate of crime increased. According to the British Home Office and reported by BBC, street robberies were up 28% by 2001, violent crime up 11%, murders up 4%, and rape up 14%. The trend continued in 2004 with a 10% increase in street crime, 8% increase in muggings, and a 22% increase in robberies.

I'm beginning to think criminals don't obey the rules. Sup' with that?

Well, at least they got rid of all those evil handguns, right? Nope. According to a King's College study, handguns were used in 3,685 British offenses in 2000 compared with 2,648 in 1997, an increase of 40%.

Bummer.

So what's happening lately in the UK, now void of private gun ownership? According to a 2009 joint report of the European Commission and United Nations, the UK has the highest rate of violent crime in Europe...higher than the United States! And, they have the second highest overall crime rate in the EU. Then there's this gem: by 2007, firearms used in crimes doubled...fricken doubled!

But America's gun grabbing nanny staters know what's best...THEIR plan for more gun laws will surely do the trick.

And apparently, people are much "safer" if they're killed with a knife or a blunt object than if they're killed with a gun.

Gotta love liberal logic, if only because trying to follow it lets you feel like you're on LSD while still sober.

Yup. Knives and clubs work quite well when killing someone.

Shit happens, i.e. guns, and will continue to happen. The world is full of eviil, looney and just plain bad people.

 

[Noomi]

It happens all over the world, in the UK (very strict gun control laws), the whole of Europe and the rest. It's not guns, it's people that are the problem.

If people are the problem, then surely taking guns out of the hands of the people will prevent the problem that is created by a maniac with a gun?

There is no sense in allowing fucked up people to get their hands on a dangerous weapon...

 

[Sallow]

It happens all over the world, in the UK (very strict gun control laws), the whole of Europe and the rest. It's not guns, it's people that are the problem.

Wow.

Must be a major problem in the UK.

How many gun deaths..last year?

Can you link it?

Nice try at diversion, but the topic isn't "gun deaths", it's "mass murder". And amazingly enough, the UK's gun laws have NOT stopped people from murdering each other, mass-murdering each other, spree-killing each other, serial-killing each other, and even shooting each other.

But thanks for answering the OP's question by proving that we can't, in fact, have a non-partisan discussion of the true causes behind heinous crimes.

Well..if you want to go that route..

Add frequency to that.

Mass murders, of the type seen in Colorado..are getting to be a semi annual event.

 

[California Girl]

Wow.

Must be a major problem in the UK.

How many gun deaths..last year?

Can you link it?

Nice try at diversion, but the topic isn't "gun deaths", it's "mass murder". And amazingly enough, the UK's gun laws have NOT stopped people from murdering each other, mass-murdering each other, spree-killing each other, serial-killing each other, and even shooting each other.

But thanks for answering the OP's question by proving that we can't, in fact, have a non-partisan discussion of the true causes behind heinous crimes.

In fact, after England banned guns in 1997, their rate of crime increased. According to the British Home Office and reported by BBC, street robberies were up 28% by 2001, violent crime up 11%, murders up 4%, and rape up 14%. The trend continued in 2004 with a 10% increase in street crime, 8% increase in muggings, and a 22% increase in robberies.

I'm beginning to think criminals don't obey the rules. Sup' with that?

Well, at least they got rid of all those evil handguns, right? Nope. According to a King's College study, handguns were used in 3,685 British offenses in 2000 compared with 2,648 in 1997, an increase of 40%.

Bummer.

So what's happening lately in the UK, now void of private gun ownership? According to a 2009 joint report of the European Commission and United Nations, the UK has the highest rate of violent crime in Europe...higher than the United States! And, they have the second highest overall crime rate in the EU. Then there's this gem: by 2007, firearms used in crimes doubled...fricken doubled!

But America's gun grabbing nanny staters know what's best...THEIR plan for more gun laws will surely do the trick.

They have seen an increase in knife crime since the gun ban, I think. I would not swear to that, and I can't be arsed to google it, but a police officer buddy said it.

 

[PredFan]

The social history of the US is that we are, and were, turned into a violent society and we like it.

Ahh! Pessimism! A man after my own heart.

 

[PredFan]

It seems that some cannot keep the partisan bickering out of the conversation.

 

[Katzndogz]

You can't stop people from suddenly going crazy any more than Andrea Yates could have been stopped from killing her five children. Sometimes you can identify them in time and remove them, most of the time there is no prior warning or very little prior warning.

 

[eflatminor]

It happens all over the world, in the UK (very strict gun control laws), the whole of Europe and the rest. It's not guns, it's people that are the problem.

If people are the problem, then surely taking guns out of the hands of the people will prevent the problem that is created by a maniac with a gun?

There is no sense in allowing fucked up people to get their hands on a dangerous weapon...

Well, let's see how your suggestion worked out in Australia after you guys banned guns in 1996:

1) In the first two years after Australian gun-owners were forced to surrender 640,381 personal firearms, government statistics showed a dramatic increase in criminal activity. By 2001-2002, homicides were up 20% (Australian Institute of Criminology, April 2003)

2) By March of 2000, firearm-related murders were up 19%, armed robberies were up 69% and home invasions were up 21%.

3) In Sydney, robbery rates with guns rose 160% in 2001 (The Sydney Morning Herald, April 4, 2002)

4) According to the British Journal of Criminology (November 2006), a ten year Australian study has concluded that firearm confiscation had no effect on lowering crime rates.

So, when you proclaim that "surely taking guns out of the hands of the people will prevent the problem", I would agree with you...but you're wrong.

 

[VanceMack]

Wow.

Must be a major problem in the UK.

How many gun deaths..last year?

Can you link it?

Nice try at diversion, but the topic isn't "gun deaths", it's "mass murder". And amazingly enough, the UK's gun laws have NOT stopped people from murdering each other, mass-murdering each other, spree-killing each other, serial-killing each other, and even shooting each other.

But thanks for answering the OP's question by proving that we can't, in fact, have a non-partisan discussion of the true causes behind heinous crimes.

Well..if you want to go that route..

Add frequency to that.

Mass murders, of the type seen in Colorado..are getting to be a semi annual event.

Semi annual huh? Funny...you'd think that with all those firearms out there it would be happening more often. Could it be that it is the PEOPLE that are going off the deep end with greater frequency? Could it be that there are indeed societal trends that cause people to wallow more in their own self pity and self loathing, further fueled by violence as seen in the news and played out in theaters and video games that is planting the seeds in the minds of people like this asshole in Colorado that what he had planned was actually a GOOD thing?

Criminals...people with evil intent...will and always have got guns. They are the problem...not the guns.

You cited some 30k firearm deaths in the US...which is...wow...tragic...except that over half of those firearm deaths are suicide and the instrument is put somewhat into perspective when you examine the suicide deaths in places like...oh...say...Japan...where suicide is now the leading cause of death for men aged 21-33 and is brought about by "jumping in front of trains, leaping off high places, hanging, or overdosing on medication, or by using household products to make the poisonous gas hydrogen sulfide. In 2007, only 29 suicides used this gas, but in a span from January to September 2008, 867 suicides resulted from gas poisoning". Its all relative...except when you are a mindless ideologue dancing in the blood of tragedy to further a political agenda. You want this national discussion on banning guns...for the sole reason that you want to ban guns. Any death is just a happy coincidence for you. Guns are not and have never been 'the problem'.

 

[eflatminor]

Nice try at diversion, but the topic isn't "gun deaths", it's "mass murder". And amazingly enough, the UK's gun laws have NOT stopped people from murdering each other, mass-murdering each other, spree-killing each other, serial-killing each other, and even shooting each other.

But thanks for answering the OP's question by proving that we can't, in fact, have a non-partisan discussion of the true causes behind heinous crimes.

In fact, after England banned guns in 1997, their rate of crime increased. According to the British Home Office and reported by BBC, street robberies were up 28% by 2001, violent crime up 11%, murders up 4%, and rape up 14%. The trend continued in 2004 with a 10% increase in street crime, 8% increase in muggings, and a 22% increase in robberies.

I'm beginning to think criminals don't obey the rules. Sup' with that?

Well, at least they got rid of all those evil handguns, right? Nope. According to a King's College study, handguns were used in 3,685 British offenses in 2000 compared with 2,648 in 1997, an increase of 40%.

Bummer.

So what's happening lately in the UK, now void of private gun ownership? According to a 2009 joint report of the European Commission and United Nations, the UK has the highest rate of violent crime in Europe...higher than the United States! And, they have the second highest overall crime rate in the EU. Then there's this gem: by 2007, firearms used in crimes doubled...fricken doubled!

But America's gun grabbing nanny staters know what's best...THEIR plan for more gun laws will surely do the trick.

They have seen an increase in knife crime since the gun ban, I think. I would not swear to that, and I can't be arsed to google it, but a police officer buddy said it.

Correct. Not only has gun-related crime skyrocketed following the firearms ban, so have stabbings following laws restricting their private ownership. According to a 2007 report from The Telegraph, "Knife crime has grown in the last three decades despite the passage of various laws".

But hey, if it makes the Lefties FEEL good, then that's all that matters...

 

[Full-Auto]

It's not like you guys can..I think.

Any mention of any restriction on access to guns is met with harsh, absolutist and ridiculous resistance.

So much so..Democrats have mainly given up on gun control.

Not all of us get up every morning and put on the lambs suit like you.

When you have something that will be effective against criminals , but leaves the avg citizen alone. Wake us. The only thing you guys ever propose are restrictions for the law abiding.

I doubt you dumbasses ever catch on.

 

[Borillar]

Civilization is only a very thin veneer separating us from barbarity. Mass killings have been endemic to mankind from the dawn of history. Entire cities were put to the sword down to the last man, woman, and child in ancient times. It is only in the 20th century that technology caught up with the evil nature of some men. Now, one man can do the butchery of a platoon of soldiers of a century ago.

It isn't culture, movies, tv, parenting, etc. This has happened across all cultures long before movies and tv. It is part of man's nature.

Think so? That's a scary thought.

Humanity's capacity for evil is just the flip side of its capacity for good. You can't really have the one without the other.

As far as preventing it goes, the place for us to start is with being honest about the topic. We get nowhere by pretending it's all about the tools used, or that evil doesn't exist, or that evil is a mental disorder, or that we can eliminate the bad in human nature by passing enough laws, imposing ridiculous politically-correct behavior rules, and wishing really hard.

Indeed. In the face of such events, how can anyone deny that evil exists? But what can be done about it? Can we make it harder for evil people to obtain the tools for their murderous intent? Do we have to become like the "wild west" of a century and a half ago with everybody carrying guns?

 

[candycorn]

The gun is a tool, it is not the motive.

As long as we don't address what causes people to kill on a large scale, they will continue.

Is it culture? Is it movies and TV? Is it bad parenting? Is it a series of emotional and environmental triggers?

Discuss.

At the risk of getting the "duh" award, mass murder occurs when motive meets opportunity. Be it Anthrax, Sarin, or an automatic weapon. The obvious answer is to make the meetings with opportunity much more rare than we currently do

The cause? I denounce any sort of psychological problem or, better to say, ALMOST any sort of psychological problem. A 4 year old knows the difference between right and wrong. If you have a disease that puts you into the realm of having the mind of a 3 year old, maybe you're eligible for the insanity defense. Beyond that, you're responsible and hate is the cause.

Of your suggested answers, it's a series of emotional and environmental triggers. We've always had a culture (in recent memory) that included violence on movies, TV, and in our arts. Bad parenting goes back further than that.

When someone doesn't have the mental, physiccal, and psychological software to understand what is going on, you have those triggers.

 

[MuadDib]

Wow.

Must be a major problem in the UK.

How many gun deaths..last year?

Can you link it?

It's not an annual event in the UK. But...

Cumbria shootings - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Cumbria.... 2010... 12 dead.

Just a few weeks ago, some guy walked into a law office not far from where I live and shot a lawyer - he died yesterday.

Norway... it's the 1st anniversary this week of the mass murder of 77 - mainly kids.

It happens everywhere. We might have more of a problem, but we are not alone in the problem itself.

To pretend it is unique to the US or is some kind of fucking competition is just ludicrous... but i expect no more from you... intellect is not your forte.

Unique to the US? No.

But gun deaths in the UK rarely breaks over 100 each year.

And in the US it's something like 30K.

In terms of magnitude your comparison if off the scale.

Intellect..or math..is not your forte.

You're using a misleading figure. In 2004:

16,750 suicides (56% of all U.S gun deaths),
11,624 homicides (40% of all U.S gun deaths),
649 unintentional shootings, 311 from legal intervention and 235 from undetermined intent (4% of all U.S gun deaths combined).

 

[Cecilie1200]

It happens all over the world, in the UK (very strict gun control laws), the whole of Europe and the rest. It's not guns, it's people that are the problem.

If people are the problem, then surely taking guns out of the hands of the people will prevent the problem that is created by a maniac with a gun?

There is no sense in allowing fucked up people to get their hands on a dangerous weapon...

You dimwit, there are at least thirty things in your house RIGHT THIS SECOND that I could kill you with if I were there and had a mind to. Oh, and if I were there and had a mind to kill you, THEN there'd be at least THIRTY-TWO things to kill you with, because my hands would be there.

You don't stop murderers by trying to make the world 100% risk-free, because only an incredible fool thinks that's possible. And only an even more incredible fool thinks you stop murderers by disarming their potential victims.

Why is it every time I'm forced to talk to a woman who's attempting to sound smart and clever on a serious issue, I end up pitying heterosexual men?

 

[Cecilie1200]

Wow.

Must be a major problem in the UK.

How many gun deaths..last year?

Can you link it?

Nice try at diversion, but the topic isn't "gun deaths", it's "mass murder". And amazingly enough, the UK's gun laws have NOT stopped people from murdering each other, mass-murdering each other, spree-killing each other, serial-killing each other, and even shooting each other.

But thanks for answering the OP's question by proving that we can't, in fact, have a non-partisan discussion of the true causes behind heinous crimes.

Well..if you want to go that route..

Add frequency to that.

Mass murders, of the type seen in Colorado..are getting to be a semi annual event.

Mass murders are not a new thing, nor have they ever been particularly rare. What's really new and shiny on the scene is 24/7 news coverage just dying for something sensational to make headlines with, and thus telling us about events around the globe that we otherwise never would have heard of.

But if you're willing to get off the "The guns are the guilty parties!" kick and discuss what it is about human society today that's possibly increasing the incidence of violence and evil, I think I did mention that that would be a good place to start in dealing with the problem (you can't actually SOLVE the problem of human violence entirely).

 

[Cecilie1200]

You can't stop people from suddenly going crazy any more than Andrea Yates could have been stopped from killing her five children. Sometimes you can identify them in time and remove them, most of the time there is no prior warning or very little prior warning.

And the ones who aren't crazy? What do you do about that?

Oh, and Andrea Yates probably could have been stopped if her family had been paying a bit more attention.

 

[Cecilie1200]

It happens all over the world, in the UK (very strict gun control laws), the whole of Europe and the rest. It's not guns, it's people that are the problem.

If people are the problem, then surely taking guns out of the hands of the people will prevent the problem that is created by a maniac with a gun?

There is no sense in allowing fucked up people to get their hands on a dangerous weapon...

Well, let's see how your suggestion worked out in Australia after you guys banned guns in 1996:

1) In the first two years after Australian gun-owners were forced to surrender 640,381 personal firearms, government statistics showed a dramatic increase in criminal activity. By 2001-2002, homicides were up 20% (Australian Institute of Criminology, April 2003)

2) By March of 2000, firearm-related murders were up 19%, armed robberies were up 69% and home invasions were up 21%.

3) In Sydney, robbery rates with guns rose 160% in 2001 (The Sydney Morning Herald, April 4, 2002)

4) According to the British Journal of Criminology (November 2006), a ten year Australian study has concluded that firearm confiscation had no effect on lowering crime rates.

So, when you proclaim that "surely taking guns out of the hands of the people will prevent the problem", I would agree with you...but you're wrong.

Wow. It's like the criminals ignored the law, or something.

 

[Cecilie1200]

Think so? That's a scary thought.

Humanity's capacity for evil is just the flip side of its capacity for good. You can't really have the one without the other.

As far as preventing it goes, the place for us to start is with being honest about the topic. We get nowhere by pretending it's all about the tools used, or that evil doesn't exist, or that evil is a mental disorder, or that we can eliminate the bad in human nature by passing enough laws, imposing ridiculous politically-correct behavior rules, and wishing really hard.

Indeed. In the face of such events, how can anyone deny that evil exists? But what can be done about it? Can we make it harder for evil people to obtain the tools for their murderous intent? Do we have to become like the "wild west" of a century and a half ago with everybody carrying guns?

No, Einstein, you cannot "make it harder for evil people to obtain tools for their murderous intent". You are never going to turn the entire world into a giant Romper Room set with nothing but safety scissors and fat crayons in it. Say it with me now: THE TOOLS ARE NOT THE PROBLEM. If I decided to kill you, I could do it with a crochet hook. Are you going to outlaw crochet hooks (the security guards at the courthouse in my town actually do not allow you to bring crochet hooks or knitting needles into the building now)? I could bludgeon you to death with a heavy object. Are you going to outlaw all objects that weigh over a certain amount? Arson's pretty popular with mass murderers. Are you going to outlaw anything flammable? All poisonous substances?

Use your frigging head for something other than keeping your ears apart.

 

[blackhawk]

The gun is a tool, it is not the motive.

As long as we don't address what causes people to kill on a large scale, they will continue.

Is it culture? Is it movies and TV? Is it bad parenting? Is it a series of emotional and environmental triggers?

Discuss.

It's usually not one thing that sets someone like this Holmes guy off it's a combination of things that does it. Sadly when you get someone that determined to kill on a large scale unless they mess up and let something slip that gives away what they are planning there is little chance of stopping them.