Causes of Atheism

[Machaut]

Why are christians always wanting a fight about this?

I have no investment in what they believe, don't care, never think about it except when I read stuff like this thread.

Why are they constantly trying to get others to believe as they do?

Just quit the yammering and preaching and bible thumping and accept that not everyone believes as you do.

I can't speak for others, but I started this thread not to convert anyone, but to genuinely ask about what causes people to convert to atheism.

Of course, I've made frequent comments about butthurt atheists etc. throughout the thread, but I intended them as lighthearted rather than malicious.

I think that the Internet is a major obstacle to determining someone's intent and tone, and the fact that this site is the home to many heated discussion probably doesn't help. I encourage others to view this thread and the posts in it as laid back and inquisitive rather than angry and accusatory. Unless they use the face, which is the universal symbol for "I am not feeling laid back right now."

Threads like this one can be very informative if we debate ideas rather than the people who have them.

Starting with your thread title, you contradict yourself.

"causes"? We're born not believing in anything and as we grow, we are taught various beliefs.

You've been rude and sarcastic ad insulting but you say its okay because you knew you were being "lighthearted". And, no, there is no "universal" meaning for an emoticon.

And then, with your last line, you contradict yourself again because in fact, your sarcasm and rudeness is used as a defense so you don't have to defend your opinions.

My question stands:

Why are christians always wanting a fight about this?

Why won't christians accept that their way is not the only way and that its most certainly not the "right way".

 

[Disir]

Historical knowledge is taught. You aren't born with it. The concept of the Holocaust is taught. It isn't that hard.

Why can you not accept that all babies are Holocaust deniers?

Why can't you accept that the concept of a deity is taught? How is this hard? There is no historical Jesus.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m5EjA-JNiVk]Richard Dawkins Admits Jesus Existed - YouTube[/ame]

Did you have a point?

 

[Disir]

Ultra-mega irony: Most Chinese atheists are completely different from American atheists in their attitudes towards religion. All of the born-and-bred Chinese I've met, both online and in person, have been either irreligious (don't care about religion as opposed to the common American atheist stance of being anti-religion) or had a kind of "cool story bro" view of all other religions. Like, the same way we view the pagan/polytheist faiths in Lord of the Rings, Warcraft, D&D, etc. as being interesting (if you're into that sort of thing) but not real and thus not offensive or competing with our own beliefs, so too do they view the Torah, Bible, Qur'an, etc.

I call this irony because, although many "Christian fundies" do view atheism as evil, and China is thought of as being essentially the atheist state, Chinese atheism is more along the lines of that innate "Well I've never really thought about it" brand of atheism Disir is trying to allude to, not the typical conscious atheism found in the West.

I am very comfortable with my atheism. Thanks.

Me too and I don't need to convert people.

Me either.

 

[amrchaos]

Pffftttt...........Jake, Jake, Jake............what are we going to do with you, man?
Evidence=none:

Atheism doesn't require faith.

So you're saying that atheists do not have faith in their own ability to reason and discern truth? You believe that atheists do not have faith in their own senses, research, experiments, or conclusions? That is a very unscientific view for an atheist to have.

Strangely enough, I am agreeing with you to som extent, Machaut

Mature adult atheist do have some kind of 'trust-value' system(which could be called a 'faith'-based system of beliefs except ....) based on assumptions and axioms of reasoning. But there are some caveats to this.

One is that you do not need a trust-value system to be an atheist. In other words, lack of or disbelief in a religion does not translate to a ready made faith-based belief system for you. For instance, you could be ignorant of a religion. Therefore you have 'disbelief due to ignorance' of that religion since you cannot believe anything you do not know. Yet it is entirely possible for that person to lack a "trust-value" system as well. OR, the person is in the process of developing one that has no bearings on belief or disbelief of any religion.

Now here is a strange but true realization about this example, the person in question may have developed this "trust-value" system, and then come to learn and accept a religion afterwards..
.
Machaut--you have done this, the problem is that you are not presently separating your "trust-value" system from your "faith-based" system of beliefs. They are distinct, and your religious beliefs sits on top of your "trust-value" system.

Without this "distinction" in the minds of humans--deconversion would be an impossibility. Also, conversion from one religion to another would be an impossibility as well.


Another caveat, and one theist try to ask but have a habit of "messing their question up", is that a 'trust-value' system in an atheist does not necessarily lead to a code of absolute morals. However it can lead a system of 'personal' morals for the atheist which is a direct product product of the 'trust-value' system applied to real life situations.

As a theist, this 2nd caveat should be problematic for you!!

There are other problems with the 'trust-value' system such as it can be different in each individual, can produce different results for an individual based upon ones perspective, and can be separated into two parts--a subconscious part and a conscious part. An atheist can 'believe' he/she is rational(and this could be true), but our subconscious can lead us down a road of irrationality in a heart beat.

So deconverting does not lead one to some kind of Universal Enlightenment. In fact, it mainly changes the perspective with one added body of knowledge(knowing as in understanding to the individual): They no longer think the religion they had followed is ABSOLUTELY true. They may still accept some part of it and so forth, but the god based tenets are highly scrutinized and/or flat out rejected.

I hope I am answering some of your questions. Of course I should warn you-you may not want to keep going down this road. There is too much 'peeking behind the curtains " and it could 'land you in the fire'.

 

[Pennywise]

I was talking about the OP and his following posts. But, I mean...........sure you might qualify.

Yeah.

Or maybe you're just an arrogant moron hypocrite who thinks they have all the answers and tells the other guy he's wrong because he thinks he has the answers.

You're a joke.

Or maybe you're a chicken that pretends to sit on the fence thus making sure that you don't get nailed and can play any side that suits your fancy.

Sorry, you lose. I suspect you hear that plenty.

I believe I am incapable of discerning the truth of life. Unlike you and your arrogant little craptastic existence, I would never make claims as to the existence or non existence of God.

You can't wrap your head around that because your hubris is profound. Your arrogance masks a hurt child. If I were a Christian man I might pity you, but I am not, and so I just see you as a shit stain on the world.

 

[Disir]

Yeah.

Or maybe you're just an arrogant moron hypocrite who thinks they have all the answers and tells the other guy he's wrong because he thinks he has the answers.

You're a joke.

Or maybe you're a chicken that pretends to sit on the fence thus making sure that you don't get nailed and can play any side that suits your fancy.

Sorry, you lose. I suspect you hear that plenty.

I believe I am incapable of discerning the truth of life. Unlike you and your arrogant little craptastic existence, I would never make claims as to the existence or non existence of God.

You can't wrap your head around that because your hubris is profound. Your arrogance masks a hurt child. If I were a Christian man I might pity you, but I am not, and so I just see you as a shit stain on the world.

Never. Because I don't. You're just not bright enough to see your own vanity that masks your stupidity. Gee, that was fun. Now what? Let's say we mosey on over to the political side so I can smack you upside your head again. You don't bother reading through those articles presented there either, I wager.

 

[Luddly Neddite]

I can't speak for others, but I started this thread not to convert anyone, but to genuinely ask about what causes people to convert to atheism.

Of course, I've made frequent comments about butthurt atheists etc. throughout the thread, but I intended them as lighthearted rather than malicious.

I think that the Internet is a major obstacle to determining someone's intent and tone, and the fact that this site is the home to many heated discussion probably doesn't help. I encourage others to view this thread and the posts in it as laid back and inquisitive rather than angry and accusatory. Unless they use the face, which is the universal symbol for "I am not feeling laid back right now."

Threads like this one can be very informative if we debate ideas rather than the people who have them.

Starting with your thread title, you contradict yourself.

"causes"? We're born not believing in anything and as we grow, we are taught various beliefs.

You've been rude and sarcastic ad insulting but you say its okay because you knew you were being "lighthearted". And, no, there is no "universal" meaning for an emoticon.

And then, with your last line, you contradict yourself again because in fact, your sarcasm and rudeness is used as a defense so you don't have to defend your opinions.

My question stands:

Why are christians always wanting a fight about this?

Why won't christians accept that their way is not the only way and that its most certainly not the "right way".

If you want to discuss your homosexuality, start a new thread.

If you just want to avoid facing up to your own inconsistencies and contradictions, all you have to do is skip over the post.

My question stands:

Why are christians always wanting a fight about this?

Why won't christians accept that their way is not the only way and that its most certainly not the "right way".

 

[Pennywise]

Or maybe you're a chicken that pretends to sit on the fence thus making sure that you don't get nailed and can play any side that suits your fancy.

Sorry, you lose. I suspect you hear that plenty.

I believe I am incapable of discerning the truth of life. Unlike you and your arrogant little craptastic existence, I would never make claims as to the existence or non existence of God.

You can't wrap your head around that because your hubris is profound. Your arrogance masks a hurt child. If I were a Christian man I might pity you, but I am not, and so I just see you as a shit stain on the world.

Never. Because I don't. You're just not bright enough to see your own vanity that masks your stupidity. Gee, that was fun. Now what? Let's say we mosey on over to the political side so I can smack you upside your head again.

The chest puffing in the playground tactic. Bravo.

Try explaining instead, your claims that YOU know all. Tell us, how did life begin?

We'll wait.

 

[Disir]

Sorry, you lose. I suspect you hear that plenty.

I believe I am incapable of discerning the truth of life. Unlike you and your arrogant little craptastic existence, I would never make claims as to the existence or non existence of God.

You can't wrap your head around that because your hubris is profound. Your arrogance masks a hurt child. If I were a Christian man I might pity you, but I am not, and so I just see you as a shit stain on the world.

Never. Because I don't. You're just not bright enough to see your own vanity that masks your stupidity. Gee, that was fun. Now what? Let's say we mosey on over to the political side so I can smack you upside your head again.

The chest puffing in the playground tactic. Bravo.

Try explaining instead, your claims that YOU know all. Tell us, how did life begin?

We'll wait.

We just did a monstrosity of a thread about a month ago. You have zip. Same as you did before. Zero evidence. No chest puffing necessary.

 

[Machaut]

Pffftttt...........Jake, Jake, Jake............what are we going to do with you, man?
Evidence=none:

Atheism doesn't require faith.

So you're saying that atheists do not have faith in their own ability to reason and discern truth? You believe that atheists do not have faith in their own senses, research, experiments, or conclusions? That is a very unscientific view for an atheist to have.

Strangely enough, I am agreeing with you to som extent, Machaut

Mature adult atheist do have some kind of 'trust-value' system(which could be called a 'faith'-based system of beliefs except ....) based on assumptions and axioms of reasoning. But there are some caveats to this.

One is that you do not need a trust-value system to be an atheist. In other words, lack of or disbelief in a religion does not translate to a ready made faith-based belief system for you. For instance, you could be ignorant of a religion. Therefore you have 'disbelief due to ignorance' of that religion since you cannot believe anything you do not know. Yet it is entirely possible for that person to lack a "trust-value" system as well. OR, the person is in the process of developing one that has no bearings on belief or disbelief of any religion.

Now here is a strange but true realization about this example, the person in question may have developed this "trust-value" system, and then come to learn and accept a religion afterwards..
.
Machaut--you have done this, the problem is that you are not presently separating your "trust-value" system from your "faith-based" system of beliefs. They are distinct, and your religious beliefs sits on top of your "trust-value" system.

Without this "distinction" in the minds of humans--deconversion would be an impossibility. Also, conversion from one religion to another would be an impossibility as well.

I think that I am separating them more than you realize. I was raised as a Christian, but now I am a Muslim. In great detail, I have considered atheism, agnosticism, Buddhism, Taoism, Hinduism, Sikhism, Jainism, the Baha'i Faith, Mormonism, and various sects of Christianity, Islam, animism, and paganism, and I arrived at my current denomination based upon this trust-value system. I am willing to accept that I could be wrong, that I have missed something in my reasoning and research, and that some other religion that I may or may not have previously reviewed is either correct or at least more correct than my current one. However, I do not think it is likely. All the same, I constantly question my own beliefs; it seems to me that many Catholics, Muslims, and atheists share this agnostic quality amongst themselves, the idea that their current way of doing things could be wrong, but probably isn't.

You say that my religious beliefs sit on top of my trust-value system. What do you mean by this, that my religion is illogically overriding my trust-value system, or that my trust-value system is a foundation for my religious beliefs?

Another caveat, and one theist try to ask but have a habit of "messing their question up", is that a 'trust-value' system in an atheist does not necessarily lead to a code of absolute morals. However it can lead a system of 'personal' morals for the atheist which is a direct product product of the 'trust-value' system applied to real life situations.

As a theist, this 2nd caveat should be problematic for you!!

Why?

There are other problems with the 'trust-value' system such as it can be different in each individual, can produce different results for an individual based upon ones perspective, and can be separated into two parts--a subconscious part and a conscious part. An atheist can 'believe' he/she is rational(and this could be true), but our subconscious can lead us down a road of irrationality in a heart beat.

So deconverting does not lead one to some kind of Universal Enlightenment. In fact, it mainly changes the perspective with one added body of knowledge(knowing as in understanding to the individual): They no longer think the religion they had followed is ABSOLUTELY true. They may still accept some part of it and so forth, but the god based tenets are highly scrutinized and/or flat out rejected.

All of this applies to theists as well. It is interesting that Catholics, Muslims, and atheists (it has been these three primarily in my own experience, perhaps it is different for others?) seem to have so much in common in terms of this intellectual and spiritual journey. I think that all of these semi-agnostic people, myself included, tend to, as you said, have different results based upon their individual perspective. People who believe strongly in the first commandment would turn to Islam ("Why am I praying to Jesus or asking a saint for intercession, rather than talking to God Himself?"), while those with a sense of independence or rebelliousness may wind up as atheists ("Why must a higher power necessarily exist?"). Of course, I say this as someone with a very limited perspective of having lived only in the U.S., so I suppose that needs to be taken into account.

I hope I am answering some of your questions. Of course I should warn you-you may not want to keep going down this road. There is too much 'peeking behind the curtains " and it could 'land you in the fire'.

Yes, you are answering my questions. We seem to think a lot alike, in my opinion, but have somewhat different ways of expressing it.

If by "land you in the fire" you're implying that any kind of rigorous investigation of one's own beliefs is somehow un-Christian/un-Islamic, hateful, etc., then I must disagree. It is incumbent upon anyone with an opinion on religion to question their beliefs. Questioning a basic idea, including the existence of God, is not a sin; rather, it is an opportunity to grow. I have considered arguments against the existence of God many times, but each time, my faith in God's existence has only increased. I think that blind belief immune to constructive inquisition is ultimately harmful to anyone, theist or atheist.

 

[Pennywise]

Never. Because I don't. You're just not bright enough to see your own vanity that masks your stupidity. Gee, that was fun. Now what? Let's say we mosey on over to the political side so I can smack you upside your head again.

The chest puffing in the playground tactic. Bravo.

Try explaining instead, your claims that YOU know all. Tell us, how did life begin?

We'll wait.

We just did a monstrosity of a thread about a month ago. You have zip. Same as you did before. Zero evidence. No chest puffing necessary.

Same as I did before what?

You know everything, I get it. So be so kind as to tell everyone the origin of life.

Chest puffing will be essential, but I'll make allowances. The origin of life, please.

 

[Luddly Neddite]

I am very comfortable with my atheism. Thanks.

Me too and I don't need to convert people.

Me either.

But, every few days, another christian starts in about how what we believe is wrong.

I don't care what they believe. They're welcome to it. But it would be nice if they would just mind their own business.

 

[Disir]

The chest puffing in the playground tactic. Bravo.

Try explaining instead, your claims that YOU know all. Tell us, how did life begin?

We'll wait.

We just did a monstrosity of a thread about a month ago. You have zip. Same as you did before. Zero evidence. No chest puffing necessary.

Same as I did before what?

You know everything, I get it. So be so kind as to tell everyone the origin of life.

Chest puffing will be essential, but I'll make allowances. The origin of life, please.

It isn't a question of knowing everything you moronic lazy theist twit.

Abiogenesis and, specifically, the chemical reaction to hydrothermal vents does have some supportive data. Is that the only theory out there? Nope. Got empirical evidence? Nope. Now, you done being a dirtbag?

 

[Pennywise]

We just did a monstrosity of a thread about a month ago. You have zip. Same as you did before. Zero evidence. No chest puffing necessary.

Same as I did before what?

You know everything, I get it. So be so kind as to tell everyone the origin of life.

Chest puffing will be essential, but I'll make allowances. The origin of life, please.

It isn't a question of knowing everything you moronic lazy theist twit.

Abiogenesis and, specifically, the chemical reaction to hydrothermal vents does have some supportive data. Is that the only theory out there? Nope. Got empirical evidence? Nope. Now, you done being a dirtbag?

None of that explains the origin of life. You are just a loudmouth who hates religion. You don't have enough knowledge to be an atheist.

Your hilarious attempts at gotchas are merely a tool to try and mask that you know nothing.

 

[Disir]

Me too and I don't need to convert people.

Me either.

But, every few days, another christian starts in about how what we believe is wrong.

I don't care what they believe. They're welcome to it. But it would be nice if they would just mind their own business.

Some less than twenty years ago there were forums that were actually quite pleasant and capable of dealing with this topic. Before YouTube. Anymore it's a set up or an attempt to make pinko commie bastard connection that is beyond out of line. Or being placed in a position that I have to delve into the psych of someone else that is an atheist.

 

[Disir]

Same as I did before what?

You know everything, I get it. So be so kind as to tell everyone the origin of life.

Chest puffing will be essential, but I'll make allowances. The origin of life, please.

It isn't a question of knowing everything you moronic lazy theist twit.

Abiogenesis and, specifically, the chemical reaction to hydrothermal vents does have some supportive data. Is that the only theory out there? Nope. Got empirical evidence? Nope. Now, you done being a dirtbag?

None of that explains the origin of life. You are just a loudmouth who hates religion. You don't have enough knowledge to be an atheist.

Your hilarious attempts at gotchas are merely a tool to try and mask that you know nothing.

Where do you get that I hate religion out of that? Oh, you don't have that. That's your MO. You have zip now as usual.

There are no gotchas. You're simply uneducated. It isn't my problem it's yours.

 

[Pennywise]

It isn't a question of knowing everything you moronic lazy theist twit.

Abiogenesis and, specifically, the chemical reaction to hydrothermal vents does have some supportive data. Is that the only theory out there? Nope. Got empirical evidence? Nope. Now, you done being a dirtbag?

None of that explains the origin of life. You are just a loudmouth who hates religion. You don't have enough knowledge to be an atheist.

Your hilarious attempts at gotchas are merely a tool to try and mask that you know nothing.

Where do you get that I hate religion out of that? Oh, you don't have that. That's your MO. You have zip now as usual.

There are no gotchas. You're simply uneducated. It isn't my problem it's yours.

Of course, that's it. How silly of me.

Now on to the lesson, professor-

What is the origin of life?

 

[Mr Natural]

Either you believe or you don't.

It's as simple as that.

And to believe and deny that belief is as foolish as not believing and pretending you do.

 

[Pennywise]

]Either you believe or you don't.

It's as simple as that.

And to believe and deny that belief is as foolish as not believing and pretending you do.

In what? Your logic is elementary (as in school).

 

[Disir]

None of that explains the origin of life. You are just a loudmouth who hates religion. You don't have enough knowledge to be an atheist.

Your hilarious attempts at gotchas are merely a tool to try and mask that you know nothing.

Where do you get that I hate religion out of that? Oh, you don't have that. That's your MO. You have zip now as usual.

There are no gotchas. You're simply uneducated. It isn't my problem it's yours.

Of course, that's it. How silly of me.

Now on to the lesson, professor-

What is the origin of life?

Again. Where do you get that I hate religion?