Charlie Gard has passed

[koshergrl]

That is one situation where I would, literally, kill people. If my kid goes into a hospital, and I decide to remove him and they try to stop me, people are going to die.

More than likely you will be the one dying...

Not alone I won't.

 

[SassyIrishLass]

You're obviously not aware of Remote Medicine technology. They do SURGERY from 1000s of miles away. I think they can electronically send all the relative medical records and test results across the Atlantic now.

What they CAN'T DO is send a $80M specialized biochem lab on a plane with Dr Hirano..

What he could have done is look at the childs records. He could have done that in his own bedroom. You havent given one reason why that could not have happened.
Is it possible he only came to the UK when he found out how much money the Gards were sitting on ?

Researchers should have free access to ANY of the medical records. UNLESS Brit Health blocked that move by the parents. WHICH IN ITSELF is fucking sinister thing to do.. There is no reason to visit. The kid needed the specialized services of the Lab in the US. What part of that don't you understand?

I just told you, you can't put an $80M specialized lab and the folks that know the protocols on a plane. Since you don't understand the tactical challenges here -- maybe you should STFU....

And with all this access to the data the lab didnt bother to read any of it.Until they found out the parents had money. Maybe you should stfu and stop making politics out of this.

Britain's failed socialized medicine made it political. You clowns can't get anything right

The British have the most inept health service on our Continent, when we lived in London we never used it and always used private.

EG. if the British want to see a Consultant, they first must get a letter from their Doctor sent to and then they get placed upon a waiting list which can be waiting any time between two months to a year and a half, this on NHS.

The above same if they go Private, they still must get a letter from their Doctor but then they will have an appointment any time between two days to five days.

Also one time a friend of ours had a small accident and his wife had no choice but to take him to A&E (Accident and the Emergencies) and a chief nurse looked at him and then said okay but he would have to wait for the Doctor to look at him also to prescribe painkillers, they wait SIX hours for the Doctor to get to them.

This is the British NHS not a good situation for them.

Well it certainly did Charlie Gard no favors.

 

[Lucy Hamilton]

Well I will say it slowly.
The hospital invited Dr Hirano over to see if he could help. Nobody was standing in the way of that. The courts nor the evil left wing communist tory government were not parties to that.
He was invited as an expert in the field and nothing else.
I am not clear what debate you are referring to.You seem to be trying to drag a load of baggage into what is a straightforward situation.

You're obviously not aware of Remote Medicine technology. They do SURGERY from 1000s of miles away. I think they can electronically send all the relative medical records and test results across the Atlantic now.

What they CAN'T DO is send a $80M specialized biochem lab on a plane with Dr Hirano..

What he could have done is look at the childs records. He could have done that in his own bedroom. You havent given one reason why that could not have happened.
Is it possible he only came to the UK when he found out how much money the Gards were sitting on ?

Researchers should have free access to ANY of the medical records. UNLESS Brit Health blocked that move by the parents. WHICH IN ITSELF is fucking sinister thing to do.. There is no reason to visit. The kid needed the specialized services of the Lab in the US. What part of that don't you understand?

I just told you, you can't put an $80M specialized lab and the folks that know the protocols on a plane. Since you don't understand the tactical challenges here -- maybe you should STFU....

And with all this access to the data the lab didnt bother to read any of it.Until they found out the parents had money. Maybe you should stfu and stop making politics out of this.

Britain's failed socialized medicine made it political. You clowns can't get anything right

I forgot to mention the British also have a crisis getting a dentist because they too are NHS. This has nothing to do with money because the British Government always gives the NHS many many billions a year, so the problem is with bureaucracy and also shortage of nurses because the British pay their nurses the lowest wages in the whole of our Continent, in England a train driver gets twice the amount of wage that a nurse gets.

Is it a wonder that British nurses train in Britain and then go elsewhere to work when Britain treats them so badly and pays them a wage that they cannot live on, I think they get 15,000 Pounds a year starting wage.

Nurses deserve respect and a living wage, the British treat them like crap and take them for granted.

 

[SassyIrishLass]

You're obviously not aware of Remote Medicine technology. They do SURGERY from 1000s of miles away. I think they can electronically send all the relative medical records and test results across the Atlantic now.

What they CAN'T DO is send a $80M specialized biochem lab on a plane with Dr Hirano..

What he could have done is look at the childs records. He could have done that in his own bedroom. You havent given one reason why that could not have happened.
Is it possible he only came to the UK when he found out how much money the Gards were sitting on ?

Researchers should have free access to ANY of the medical records. UNLESS Brit Health blocked that move by the parents. WHICH IN ITSELF is fucking sinister thing to do.. There is no reason to visit. The kid needed the specialized services of the Lab in the US. What part of that don't you understand?

I just told you, you can't put an $80M specialized lab and the folks that know the protocols on a plane. Since you don't understand the tactical challenges here -- maybe you should STFU....

And with all this access to the data the lab didnt bother to read any of it.Until they found out the parents had money. Maybe you should stfu and stop making politics out of this.

Britain's failed socialized medicine made it political. You clowns can't get anything right

I forgot to mention the British also have a crisis getting a dentist because they too are NHS. This has nothing to do with money because the British Government always gives the NHS many many billions a year, so the problem is with bureaucracy and also shortage of nurses because the British pay their nurses the lowest wages in the whole of our Continent, in England a train driver gets twice the amount of wage that a nurse gets.

Is it a wonder that British nurses train in Britain and then go elsewhere to work when Britain treats them so badly and pays them a wage that they cannot live on, I think they get 15,000 Pounds a year starting wage.

Nurses deserve respect and a living wage, the British treat them like crap and take them for granted.

My sister is a medical flight nurse....uuuuge dollars.

 

[Lucy Hamilton]

What he could have done is look at the childs records. He could have done that in his own bedroom. You havent given one reason why that could not have happened.
Is it possible he only came to the UK when he found out how much money the Gards were sitting on ?

Researchers should have free access to ANY of the medical records. UNLESS Brit Health blocked that move by the parents. WHICH IN ITSELF is fucking sinister thing to do.. There is no reason to visit. The kid needed the specialized services of the Lab in the US. What part of that don't you understand?

I just told you, you can't put an $80M specialized lab and the folks that know the protocols on a plane. Since you don't understand the tactical challenges here -- maybe you should STFU....

And with all this access to the data the lab didnt bother to read any of it.Until they found out the parents had money. Maybe you should stfu and stop making politics out of this.

Britain's failed socialized medicine made it political. You clowns can't get anything right

The British have the most inept health service on our Continent, when we lived in London we never used it and always used private.

EG. if the British want to see a Consultant, they first must get a letter from their Doctor sent to and then they get placed upon a waiting list which can be waiting any time between two months to a year and a half, this on NHS.

The above same if they go Private, they still must get a letter from their Doctor but then they will have an appointment any time between two days to five days.

Also one time a friend of ours had a small accident and his wife had no choice but to take him to A&E (Accident and the Emergencies) and a chief nurse looked at him and then said okay but he would have to wait for the Doctor to look at him also to prescribe painkillers, they wait SIX hours for the Doctor to get to them.

This is the British NHS not a good situation for them.

Well it certainly did Charlie Gard no favors.

This below from several years ago everyone on our Continent heard about because Europol had an alert looking for his parents.

This young child had cancer and his parents were told by the British Doctors at the hospital they could not remove him to take him for Proton Beam Therapy in Prag and that he had to continue with Chemotherapy even though he was getting sicker instead of better, his parents disagreed and they knew Proton Beam Therapy has less side effects than Chemotherapy and a children's hospital in Prag they said they could take this young child immediately and begin the treatment, the parents sold their house to even pay for this.

The Doctors would NOT allow them to take their child, so in an extraordinary happening his parents had to KIDNAP their OWN child to get him to Prag. The Hospital and the British Police put out an alert for them for having taken their child without Medical Consent and Europol was activated to search for the parents and the child. The parents were ARRESTED in Spain, but later released and they took their child to Prag for the treatment.

The Doctors said that Proton Beam Therapy was experimental and was too expensive and Chemotherapy was the only option.

This below one of the original news items from 2014:

Time running out for missing boy with brain tumour, say police

Ashya King case - Wikipedia

This now from 2016:

Ashya King's proton beam cancer therapy is as good as chemotherapy | Daily Mail Online

Brain tumour boy Ashya King is free of cancer after proton therapy, parents say

 

[PredFan]

Here is the final word on Charlie Gard and the evils of Socialized medicine:

In socialized medicine, your child, your spouse, your elderly parent, does not belong to you, they belong to the government who is paying the bills.

People arent property and the rights of the child outweigh those of the parents. Its not a difficult concept to grasp.

The parents and guardians speak for the rights of those who cannot speak for themselves. Unless you live in a country with socialized medicine then the government and the courts decide. You belong to them. Your child belongs to them. It's not a difficult truth to grasp.

There are parents who would deny their children treatment because of their own personal religious beliefs. Who speaks up for the child then ?

Irrelevant.
Stop talking, admit you are wrong, be an adult. It won't hurt.

Im not sure that I can simplify the question any further. Who speaks for the child when the parents are wrong ?

I see you chose not to be an adult. Have fun with that.

 

[Coyote]

Here is the final word on Charlie Gard and the evils of Socialized medicine:

In socialized medicine, your child, your spouse, your elderly parent, does not belong to you, they belong to the government who is paying the bills.

People arent property and the rights of the child outweigh those of the parents. Its not a difficult concept to grasp.

The parents and guardians speak for the rights of those who cannot speak for themselves. Unless you live in a country with socialized medicine then the government and the courts decide. You belong to them. Your child belongs to them. It's not a difficult truth to grasp.

Not always. Sometimes the courts are needed to speak for the voiceless, because what the parents are doing is child abuse. A child isn't property.

In Socialized Medicine, a child is the property of the state. That is blatantly obvious in this case. There was no child abuse, it was exactly the opposite.

That is not the case here. It was a case of medical ethics and the child's interests vs the parents. It has nothing to do with socialized medicine.

 

[Coyote]

I think this child has been used, and it's a bit shameful. I listened to a British politician (conservative) being interviewed on this. Out of everyone arguing for the treatment outside the parents - none had seen the medical evidence on the child's condition. Not even the doctor offering the supposed treatment (who had a financial interest in it). He was invited to Britain in January to see the child and all his medical records and he didn't go. American politicians - in the current political atmosphere of repealing ACA are using it as political weapon against "socialized" medicine - that is exactly why there is so much attention focused on him. But it's not a fight between "socialized medicine" and a baby's life. As this conservative MP pointed out - socialized medicine is not perfect, but in this case it's medical ethics vs. the parents. She also pointed out that the unacknowledged tragedy of this was prolonging the baby's agony and prolonging the parents agony when they needed to come to terms with the reality of their baby's condition. The baby became a political pawn.

I addressed WHY researchers in the US are not ADVOCATES for dragging folks into experimental programs. They cannot assess this remotely. No NEED to go to Britain. They can get access to every test and record without traveling. What they NEEDED was for Charlie to be in THEIR unique and very specialized lab in order to determine the eligibility for treatment. Researchers should NOT beg for experimental patients --- ever. Or get entangled in LEGAL disputes about transferring care from one system to another.

It WAS a fight between "socialized medicine" and family rights. And families lost. All of the excuses about what the RESEARCHERS did or didn't do are MUTE -- if the Courts are gonna back up the arrogance and insensitivity of the Brit Health system... Again -- researchers are not advocates or salespeople. Don't expect them to get entangled in this.

Charlie could have HELPED hundreds of other children afflicted with this disease. Now he's just dead....

It had nothing. To. Do. With socialized medicine. Zip. Zero.

What unique and specialized lab? The stuff could be given in a drink.

This researcher had a financial interest in it. Not only that he was throwing around statistics with out ever having seeing the child OR HIS RECORDS and he even admitted that this experimental treatment had never been used on a child with Charlie's mutation.

When people consent to highly experimental therapy, the do so knowingly. Charlie couldn't. When some one can't and there is dispute between doctors and there ethics and parents and their wishes, the courts step in to represent the child's interest. This is not unique to countries with socialized medicine. Parents don't have an unlimited right to whatever they wish to their child.

The right is making it into a big bad socialist bogeyman and using Charlie.

 

[Coyote]

People arent property and the rights of the child outweigh those of the parents. Its not a difficult concept to grasp.

The parents and guardians speak for the rights of those who cannot speak for themselves. Unless you live in a country with socialized medicine then the government and the courts decide. You belong to them. Your child belongs to them. It's not a difficult truth to grasp.

There are parents who would deny their children treatment because of their own personal religious beliefs. Who speaks up for the child then ?

Irrelevant.
Stop talking, admit you are wrong, be an adult. It won't hurt.

Im not sure that I can simplify the question any further. Who speaks for the child when the parents are wrong ?

I see you chose not to be an adult. Have fun with that.

His last sentence is very adult. What is the answer?

 

[flacaltenn]

Here is the final word on Charlie Gard and the evils of Socialized medicine:

In socialized medicine, your child, your spouse, your elderly parent, does not belong to you, they belong to the government who is paying the bills.

People arent property and the rights of the child outweigh those of the parents. Its not a difficult concept to grasp.

The parents and guardians speak for the rights of those who cannot speak for themselves. Unless you live in a country with socialized medicine then the government and the courts decide. You belong to them. Your child belongs to them. It's not a difficult truth to grasp.

Not always. Sometimes the courts are needed to speak for the voiceless, because what the parents are doing is child abuse. A child isn't property.

In Socialized Medicine, a child is the property of the state. That is blatantly obvious in this case. There was no child abuse, it was exactly the opposite.

That is not the case here. It was a case of medical ethics and the child's interests vs the parents. It has nothing to do with socialized medicine.

The parents wanted to give him a chance at gene therapy. How is that NOT in the child's interest? The NHS told him to die.. WITHOUT the ability to TRY a new procedure that NHS doesn't WANT to cover.

What is this shit about being AGAINST the child's interest? He WAS dying rapidly... Do you understand that situation? WHY would anyone PROHIBIT by LAW of the realm taking him to America for experimental treatment?

The fact you don't see the REAL FAMILY abuse here -- worries me... This disease is POTENTIALLY reversible with custom gene therapy. You cannot bring a syringe on an Airplane and fix him 8,000 miles away.

 

[EvilCat Breath]

Very often in countries with socialized medicine people are killed for their own good. Sometimes when they want to live government doctors say they are incompetent to make that decision.

Now we know that even when the medical care can be paid out of pocket, when the government says you die - you die.

 

[EvilCat Breath]

In the enlightened countries of Belgium and the Netherlands if a child feels insufficiently happy they are killed. Almost a thousand every year.

Killing Children Legally In Belgium

 

[JoeB131]

Before I make a judgement, I should ask myself how would I think feel and behave if I was the mother of baby Charlie Gard.

Not really what is being discussed here....

Well it should be. In part at least.

No, it really shouldn't be. The question here was is it ethical to continue to expend resources on a child with absolutely no prognosis for recovery, just to make the parents feel better.

 

[JoeB131]

Here is the final word on Charlie Gard and the evils of Socialized medicine:

In socialized medicine, your child, your spouse, your elderly parent, does not belong to you, they belong to the government who is paying the bills.

again, how is that different than "Corporate" medicine, where they can decide you can die if you represent an economic loss to them?

The thing was, Nataline Sarkisyan had a chance to recover. Charlie Gard was a corpse being kept alive by artificial means.

Complete bull shit. People donate money all the time for parents of children fighting deadly diseases. Again, you are dead wrong. Time to be an adult and admit you are wrong.

Not really. Only reason why this corpse got money was because the anti-abortion nutters got involved.

If it happened in this country, you wouldn't give a shit.

 

[JoeB131]

Socialized medicine is veterinary medicine applied to humans. You pay the dog's bills. As the owner single payer, if you don't want to pay for a flea treatment, the loss of blood could kill the dog. No one cares. In socialized medicine the government is the owner we are all the pets.

again, how does that differ from Corporate Medicine?

Big insurance wants to go back to the good old days where they can declare you cancer a pre-existing condition and not pay for it.

Let me say this E-V-E-N s-l-o-w-e-r for YOU.. Researcher KNOWS he could give the kid a chance. CAN'T EVALUATE without days of testing in HIS Lab. No REASON for him to come over to plea. He MADE his case to the parents. And it's really THEIR CALL as to whether to accept Dr. Hirano's offer. NOT YOU. NOT the Govt..

So by your logic, Children should be subjected to whatever crazy medical advice they get from whatever quack walks in off the street?

Courts in this country overrule parental rights all the time.

What are parents' rights regarding a child's medical treatment? - CNN.com

Like Daniel, Noah Maxin had a blood cancerdoctors said would almost surely kill him if he didn't have chemotherapy. Like the Hausers, the Maxins rejected the doctor's recommendations in favor of supplements and other alternative treatments to boost his immune system. Both cases wound up in courtrooms.

But the similarities end there. A Minnesota court ordered Colleen and Anthony Hauser to have their son undergo chemotherapy and possibly radiation. The Maxins, however, won their case, and for a time gave Noah, who was then 7 years old, only alternative treatments.

 

[JoeB131]

The rights of the child and the parents outweigh the rights of the *state* to deny them treatment.

What happened to the whole "everybody has a right to healthcare" BS you baby killers are always touting? apparently you pigs think that means "the state has the right to decide who gets treatment, and who doesn't."

Which is one of the major problems the decent people have had with government health care all along. It always ends up being about who the state is allowed to kill off.

Again, this child was blind deaf and unable to breathe on his own.

The government overrules parents all the time in this country as well.

 

[PredFan]

Here is the final word on Charlie Gard and the evils of Socialized medicine:

In socialized medicine, your child, your spouse, your elderly parent, does not belong to you, they belong to the government who is paying the bills.

People arent property and the rights of the child outweigh those of the parents. Its not a difficult concept to grasp.

The parents and guardians speak for the rights of those who cannot speak for themselves. Unless you live in a country with socialized medicine then the government and the courts decide. You belong to them. Your child belongs to them. It's not a difficult truth to grasp.

Not always. Sometimes the courts are needed to speak for the voiceless, because what the parents are doing is child abuse. A child isn't property.

In Socialized Medicine, a child is the property of the state. That is blatantly obvious in this case. There was no child abuse, it was exactly the opposite.

That is not the case here. It was a case of medical ethics and the child's interests vs the parents. It has nothing to do with socialized medicine.

Yeah it does. This is what we have been saying will happen with Socialized Medicine. And it had nothing at all to do with ethics and everything to do with politics.

 

[JoeB131]

That is one situation where I would, literally, kill people. If my kid goes into a hospital, and I decide to remove him and they try to stop me, people are going to die.

Okay. You'd probably be arrested, though, if courts found against you.

Bullshit, the court should have no say in it one way or the other.

you're just totally committed to government ownership of people, aren't you?

courts overrule parents all the time, and they should when it's appropriate.

 

[Mindful]

Before I make a judgement, I should ask myself how would I think feel and behave if I was the mother of baby Charlie Gard.

Not really what is being discussed here....

Well it should be. In part at least.

No, it really shouldn't be. The question here was is it ethical to continue to expend resources on a child with absolutely no prognosis for recovery, just to make the parents feel better.

JUST to make the parents feel better?

It's easy to sit here and make judgement, forgetting the human element. But I know if I were that baby's mother, I would probably feel differently. I'd cling on to the slightest hope. Particularly in the light of Charlie having been born as a normal baby. Capable of responding and bonding. What came later was so cruel. If he had been born totally disabled from the start, these issues would have been easier to deal with.

 

[JoeB131]

JUST to make the parents feel better?

It's easy to sit here and make judgement, forgetting the human element. But I know if I were that baby's mother, I would probably feel differently. I'd cling on to the slightest hope. Particularly in the light of Charlie having been born as a normal baby. Capable of responding and bonding. What came later was so cruel. If he had been born totally disabled from the start, these issues would have been easier to deal with.

Yes, this is a very sad story.

And yes, they would cling on to the slightest hope. And that's kind of why you need someone who is objective to say, "enough". Based on the science, there is nothing more we can do.