Cheney Calls for full Release of Memos

[Iriemon]

You stated it was torture correct? So you must know from personal experience how severe and extreme the pain is. So please tell everyone how your waterboarding experience was?

I've stated several times that I do not base my conclusion on any personal assessment of what getting waterboarded is like to say it is torture; but principally on the fact that the US Govt prosecuted people as war criminals for torture for doing it.

Really then you would think it was atrocious for JFK to authorize waterboarding in the 60's?

Probably.

 

[jillian]

Who says JFK authorized waterboarding?

 

[Coyote]

Hmmm...Guess the Office of Legislative Counsel was conspiring with the President too?

Apparently. I wouldn't say "conspire" - but they all wanted a legal rationalization that allowed for torture. The first step is redefining it from torture to "enhanced interrogation techniques".

But a rose by any other name is still a rose.

The very definition of torture begs to differ with you, nothing is severe or extremely pain inducing about waterboarding. Its seems, that 4 directors of the CIA agree with me.

The very definition of torture...hmmmm


What is Waterboarding: Water boarding as it is currently described involves strapping a person to an inclined board, with his feet raised and his head lowered. The interrogators bind the person's arms and legs so he can't move at all, and they cover his face. In some descriptions, the person is gagged, and some sort of cloth covers his nose and mouth; in others, his face is wrapped in cellophane. The interrogator then repeatedly pours water onto the person's face. Depending on the exact setup, the water may or may not actually get into the person's mouth and nose; but the physical experience of being underneath a wave of water seems to be secondary to the psychological experience. The person's mind believes he is drowning, and his gag reflex kicks in as if he were choking on all that water falling on his face.

What is torture: Torture, according to the United Nations Convention Against Torture, is: "any act by which severe pain or suffering, whether physical or mental, is intentionally inflicted on a person for such purposes as obtaining from him, or a third person, information or a confession, punishing him for an act he or a third person has committed or is suspected of having committed, or intimidating or coercing him or a third person, or for any reason based on discrimination of any kind, when such pain or suffering is inflicted by or at the instigation of or with the consent or acquiescence of a public official or other person acting in an official capacity. It does not include pain or suffering arising only from, inherent in, or incidental to, lawful sanctions

Is waterboarding torture? Many CIA officials see water boarding as a poor interrogation method because it scares the prisoner so much you can't trust anything he tells you. Senator John McCain, who was tortured as a POW during the Vietnam War, says water boarding is definitely a form of torture. Human rights groups agree unanimously that "simulated drowning," causing the prisoner to believe he is about to die, is undoubtedly a form of psychological torture. The international community recognizes "mock executions" as a form of torture, and many place water boarding in that category. In 1947, a Japanese soldier who used water boarding against a U.S. citizen during World War II was sentenced to 15 years in U.S. prison for committing a war crime.


Is waterboarding "torture"? What do you think, safe in your armchair insisting it's just a "dunk in the water"?

 

[Coyote]

No they stopped a second 9/11 by waterboarding him. Read the 2005 Justice Department memo....

Given that the DoJ is severely compromised by politicization scandals along with its attempt to legally sanction and justify torture - I question how credible that memo is?

2008 - Bush’s FBI Director Said Torture Didn’t Foil Any Terror Plots

So Mueller the FBI director is critical of a method used by the CIA. Shocking....

No. Mueller stated that it did not foil any plots. In fact, in the NPR article, it stated that the important information was obtained prior to torture in both Padilla and Khaled. Torture revealed no new information.

Naturally, the CIA, with it's collective butts in the fire - will do all they can to protect themselves.

 

[Coyote]

Yet it took them 183 times to figure out they had the wrong guy?

Here's the transcript:

Interrogator: "Where is Bin Laden?"
Mohammed: "I do not know!"
Interrogator: "He's lying! Waterboard him!"
Splash, splash, gurgle, gurgle, splash, gurgle, splash

It's more likely like this...since those that were there should know...
JEFFREY: Waterboarding saved L.A. - Washington Times
. "Indeed, before the CIA used enhanced techniques in its interrogation of KSM, he resisted giving any answers to questions about future attacks, simply noting, 'Soon, you will know.' "


After he was waterboarded, KSM provided the CIA with information that enabled the U.S. government to close down a terror cell already "tasked" with flying a jet into a building in Los Angeles.

"You have informed us that the interrogation of KSM - once enhanced techniques were employed - led to the discovery of a KSM plot, the 'Second Wave,' 'to use East Asian operatives to crash a hijacked airliner into' a building in Los Angeles," the memo says, referring to information the CIA provided to the Justice Department.

FBI: Key Sept. 11 Leads Obtained Without Torture : NPR

Any independent verification of the CIA's claims? Ooops....no...they destroyed key videotapes didn't they?

 

[Coyote]

Torture is a slippery slope and history gives many excellent examples of this.

According to Torture and Democracy (Darius M. Rejali) - it is not one slippery slope, but three. He states: "...torture increasingly takes in more suspects then legally approved; leads to harsher interrogation methods then legally authorized; and leads to greater bureaucratic fragmentation..."

In historical cases - the acceptance of torture lead to a lesser reliance on other methods of obtaining information. According to memoires written by French torturers in Algiers (which contradict the congratulatory memos of the generals not directly involved) "...practicing torture "deprofessionalized" military soldiers and led to fragmentation of the military and that the intelligence produced from torture was inferior to that produced through a system of informants and other policing activities..."

And more - you can preview the book here Torture and democracy - Google Book Search

I doubt institutionalized torture (which is what giving it legal sanction no matter what you choose to call it) can co-exist with an open democracy.

 

[Yurt]

If a cop beats up a suspect and gets a confession, is that ok?

didn't think so...

same with torture... doesn't matter. it's illegal. it's wrong. and we should reject any effort to pervert this country with its use.

this is not about a confession, this is about saving lives

its funny how you guys keep throwing up this stawman about confessions. to my knowledge, everyone who supports waterboarding or some coercive interrogation methods that you would consider torture support it ONLY to save lives.

 

[Coyote]

If a cop beats up a suspect and gets a confession, is that ok?

didn't think so...

same with torture... doesn't matter. it's illegal. it's wrong. and we should reject any effort to pervert this country with its use.

this is not about a confession, this is about saving lives

its funny how you guys keep throwing up this stawman about confessions. to my knowledge, everyone who supports waterboarding or some coercive interrogation methods that you would consider torture support it ONLY to save lives.

The problem is, with torture - you don't know if the person has information that will save lives. That kind of perfect hypothetical situation almost never happens in real life. In the meantime how many innocent people to you go through before you hit one with information?

 

[DiveCon]

If a cop beats up a suspect and gets a confession, is that ok?

didn't think so...

same with torture... doesn't matter. it's illegal. it's wrong. and we should reject any effort to pervert this country with its use.

this is not about a confession, this is about saving lives

its funny how you guys keep throwing up this stawman about confessions. to my knowledge, everyone who supports waterboarding or some coercive interrogation methods that you would consider torture support it ONLY to save lives.

The problem is, with torture - you don't know if the person has information that will save lives. That kind of perfect hypothetical situation almost never happens in real life. In the meantime how many innocent people to you go through before you hit one with information?

well, they only waterboarded 3 people, which of those 3 were "innocent"?
please, do tell

 

[Coyote]

this is not about a confession, this is about saving lives

its funny how you guys keep throwing up this stawman about confessions. to my knowledge, everyone who supports waterboarding or some coercive interrogation methods that you would consider torture support it ONLY to save lives.

The problem is, with torture - you don't know if the person has information that will save lives. That kind of perfect hypothetical situation almost never happens in real life. In the meantime how many innocent people to you go through before you hit one with information?

well, they only waterboarded 3 people, which of those 3 were "innocent"?
please, do tell

They only CLAIMED they waterboarded 3 people.

Mind you, these are the same people that denied doing anything of the sort in the first place and destroyed videorecords of the sessions.

Can you see why I suspend belief at anything they say? Please do tell.

 

[DiveCon]

The problem is, with torture - you don't know if the person has information that will save lives. That kind of perfect hypothetical situation almost never happens in real life. In the meantime how many innocent people to you go through before you hit one with information?

well, they only waterboarded 3 people, which of those 3 were "innocent"?
please, do tell

They only CLAIMED they waterboarded 3 people.

Mind you, these are the same people that denied doing anything of the sort in the first place and destroyed videorecords of the sessions.

Can you see why I suspend belief at anything they say? Please do tell.

wow, you live in a fantasy world, dont ya?

 

[jreeves]

Who says JFK authorized waterboarding?

More sources if needed...
http://muslimmedianetwork.com/mmn/?p=1606
A CIA interrogation training manual declassified 12 years ago, “KUBARK Counterintelligence Interrogation — July 1963,” outlined a procedure similar to waterboarding. Subjects were suspended in tanks of water wearing blackout masks that allowed for breathing. Within hours, the subjects felt tension and so-called environmental anxiety. “Providing relief for growing discomfort, the questioner assumes a benevolent role,” the manual states.

The KUBARK manual was the product of more than a decade of research and testing, refining lessons learned from the Korean War, where U.S. airmen were subjected to a new type of “touchless torture” until they confessed to a bogus plan to use biological weapons against the North Koreans.

Used to train new interrogators, the handbook presented “basic information about coercive techniques available for use in the interrogation situation.” When it comes to torture, however, the handbook advised that “the threat to inflict pain . . . can trigger fears more damaging than the immediate sensation of pain.”

 

[jreeves]

The problem is, with torture - you don't know if the person has information that will save lives. That kind of perfect hypothetical situation almost never happens in real life. In the meantime how many innocent people to you go through before you hit one with information?

well, they only waterboarded 3 people, which of those 3 were "innocent"?
please, do tell

They only CLAIMED they waterboarded 3 people.

Mind you, these are the same people that denied doing anything of the sort in the first place and destroyed videorecords of the sessions.

Can you see why I suspend belief at anything they say? Please do tell.

Yet Blair claims the enhanced interrogations provided useful information. He wasn't director when the enhanced interrogations were being used. As a matter of fact he is Obama's director.

 

[jreeves]

Here's the transcript:

Interrogator: "Where is Bin Laden?"
Mohammed: "I do not know!"
Interrogator: "He's lying! Waterboard him!"
Splash, splash, gurgle, gurgle, splash, gurgle, splash

It's more likely like this...since those that were there should know...
JEFFREY: Waterboarding saved L.A. - Washington Times
. "Indeed, before the CIA used enhanced techniques in its interrogation of KSM, he resisted giving any answers to questions about future attacks, simply noting, 'Soon, you will know.' "


After he was waterboarded, KSM provided the CIA with information that enabled the U.S. government to close down a terror cell already "tasked" with flying a jet into a building in Los Angeles.

"You have informed us that the interrogation of KSM - once enhanced techniques were employed - led to the discovery of a KSM plot, the 'Second Wave,' 'to use East Asian operatives to crash a hijacked airliner into' a building in Los Angeles," the memo says, referring to information the CIA provided to the Justice Department.

FBI: Key Sept. 11 Leads Obtained Without Torture : NPR

Any independent verification of the CIA's claims? Ooops....no...they destroyed key videotapes didn't they?

Yep so libtards like you, couldn't get the shit released under the FOIA and have terrorist around the world using the videos as recruiting propaganda. Pretty smart if you ask me.

 

[jreeves]

The problem is, with torture - you don't know if the person has information that will save lives. That kind of perfect hypothetical situation almost never happens in real life. In the meantime how many innocent people to you go through before you hit one with information?

well, they only waterboarded 3 people, which of those 3 were "innocent"?
please, do tell

They only CLAIMED they waterboarded 3 people.

Mind you, these are the same people that denied doing anything of the sort in the first place and destroyed videorecords of the sessions.

Can you see why I suspend belief at anything they say? Please do tell.

Well why don't we just release the rest of the memos and find out? Oh wait, Obama won't do that cause he wants to cherry pick intell to release for his own political gain.

 

[jreeves]

Here's the transcript:

Interrogator: "Where is Bin Laden?"
Mohammed: "I do not know!"
Interrogator: "He's lying! Waterboard him!"
Splash, splash, gurgle, gurgle, splash, gurgle, splash

It's more likely like this...since those that were there should know...
JEFFREY: Waterboarding saved L.A. - Washington Times
. "Indeed, before the CIA used enhanced techniques in its interrogation of KSM, he resisted giving any answers to questions about future attacks, simply noting, 'Soon, you will know.' "


After he was waterboarded, KSM provided the CIA with information that enabled the U.S. government to close down a terror cell already "tasked" with flying a jet into a building in Los Angeles.

"You have informed us that the interrogation of KSM - once enhanced techniques were employed - led to the discovery of a KSM plot, the 'Second Wave,' 'to use East Asian operatives to crash a hijacked airliner into' a building in Los Angeles," the memo says, referring to information the CIA provided to the Justice Department.

FBI: Key Sept. 11 Leads Obtained Without Torture : NPR

Any independent verification of the CIA's claims? Ooops....no...they destroyed key videotapes didn't they?

The memo is from the DOJ, not the fucking CIA, libtard. Blair Obama's director of intelligence claims the enhanced interrogations provided useful intell.

 

[jreeves]

Apparently. I wouldn't say "conspire" - but they all wanted a legal rationalization that allowed for torture. The first step is redefining it from torture to "enhanced interrogation techniques".

But a rose by any other name is still a rose.

The very definition of torture begs to differ with you, nothing is severe or extremely pain inducing about waterboarding. Its seems, that 4 directors of the CIA agree with me.

The very definition of torture...hmmmm


What is Waterboarding: Water boarding as it is currently described involves strapping a person to an inclined board, with his feet raised and his head lowered. The interrogators bind the person's arms and legs so he can't move at all, and they cover his face. In some descriptions, the person is gagged, and some sort of cloth covers his nose and mouth; in others, his face is wrapped in cellophane. The interrogator then repeatedly pours water onto the person's face. Depending on the exact setup, the water may or may not actually get into the person's mouth and nose; but the physical experience of being underneath a wave of water seems to be secondary to the psychological experience. The person's mind believes he is drowning, and his gag reflex kicks in as if he were choking on all that water falling on his face.

What is torture: Torture, according to the United Nations Convention Against Torture, is: "any act by which severe pain or suffering, whether physical or mental, is intentionally inflicted on a person for such purposes as obtaining from him, or a third person, information or a confession, punishing him for an act he or a third person has committed or is suspected of having committed, or intimidating or coercing him or a third person, or for any reason based on discrimination of any kind, when such pain or suffering is inflicted by or at the instigation of or with the consent or acquiescence of a public official or other person acting in an official capacity. It does not include pain or suffering arising only from, inherent in, or incidental to, lawful sanctions

Is waterboarding torture? Many CIA officials see water boarding as a poor interrogation method because it scares the prisoner so much you can't trust anything he tells you. Senator John McCain, who was tortured as a POW during the Vietnam War, says water boarding is definitely a form of torture. Human rights groups agree unanimously that "simulated drowning," causing the prisoner to believe he is about to die, is undoubtedly a form of psychological torture. The international community recognizes "mock executions" as a form of torture, and many place water boarding in that category. In 1947, a Japanese soldier who used water boarding against a U.S. citizen during World War II was sentenced to 15 years in U.S. prison for committing a war crime.


Is waterboarding "torture"? What do you think, safe in your armchair insisting it's just a "dunk in the water"?

There is that damn pesky word severe, which the OLC determined that waterboarding didn't cause severe pain or suffering.

 

[Annie]

The very definition of torture begs to differ with you, nothing is severe or extremely pain inducing about waterboarding. Its seems, that 4 directors of the CIA agree with me.

The very definition of torture...hmmmm


What is Waterboarding: Water boarding as it is currently described involves strapping a person to an inclined board, with his feet raised and his head lowered. The interrogators bind the person's arms and legs so he can't move at all, and they cover his face. In some descriptions, the person is gagged, and some sort of cloth covers his nose and mouth; in others, his face is wrapped in cellophane. The interrogator then repeatedly pours water onto the person's face. Depending on the exact setup, the water may or may not actually get into the person's mouth and nose; but the physical experience of being underneath a wave of water seems to be secondary to the psychological experience. The person's mind believes he is drowning, and his gag reflex kicks in as if he were choking on all that water falling on his face.

What is torture: Torture, according to the United Nations Convention Against Torture, is: "any act by which severe pain or suffering, whether physical or mental, is intentionally inflicted on a person for such purposes as obtaining from him, or a third person, information or a confession, punishing him for an act he or a third person has committed or is suspected of having committed, or intimidating or coercing him or a third person, or for any reason based on discrimination of any kind, when such pain or suffering is inflicted by or at the instigation of or with the consent or acquiescence of a public official or other person acting in an official capacity. It does not include pain or suffering arising only from, inherent in, or incidental to, lawful sanctions

Is waterboarding torture? Many CIA officials see water boarding as a poor interrogation method because it scares the prisoner so much you can't trust anything he tells you. Senator John McCain, who was tortured as a POW during the Vietnam War, says water boarding is definitely a form of torture. Human rights groups agree unanimously that "simulated drowning," causing the prisoner to believe he is about to die, is undoubtedly a form of psychological torture. The international community recognizes "mock executions" as a form of torture, and many place water boarding in that category. In 1947, a Japanese soldier who used water boarding against a U.S. citizen during World War II was sentenced to 15 years in U.S. prison for committing a war crime.


Is waterboarding "torture"? What do you think, safe in your armchair insisting it's just a "dunk in the water"?

There is that damn pesky word severe, which the OLC determined that waterboarding didn't cause severe pain or suffering.

Wow, should the 'details' be looked at? How much easier to condemn based on the Japanese WWII citation, ignoring other atrocities, not too mention the differences, based on the agreements.

 

[Iriemon]

The very definition of torture...hmmmm


What is Waterboarding: Water boarding as it is currently described involves strapping a person to an inclined board, with his feet raised and his head lowered. The interrogators bind the person's arms and legs so he can't move at all, and they cover his face. In some descriptions, the person is gagged, and some sort of cloth covers his nose and mouth; in others, his face is wrapped in cellophane. The interrogator then repeatedly pours water onto the person's face. Depending on the exact setup, the water may or may not actually get into the person's mouth and nose; but the physical experience of being underneath a wave of water seems to be secondary to the psychological experience. The person's mind believes he is drowning, and his gag reflex kicks in as if he were choking on all that water falling on his face.

What is torture: Torture, according to the United Nations Convention Against Torture, is: "any act by which severe pain or suffering, whether physical or mental, is intentionally inflicted on a person for such purposes as obtaining from him, or a third person, information or a confession, punishing him for an act he or a third person has committed or is suspected of having committed, or intimidating or coercing him or a third person, or for any reason based on discrimination of any kind, when such pain or suffering is inflicted by or at the instigation of or with the consent or acquiescence of a public official or other person acting in an official capacity. It does not include pain or suffering arising only from, inherent in, or incidental to, lawful sanctions

Is waterboarding torture? Many CIA officials see water boarding as a poor interrogation method because it scares the prisoner so much you can't trust anything he tells you. Senator John McCain, who was tortured as a POW during the Vietnam War, says water boarding is definitely a form of torture. Human rights groups agree unanimously that "simulated drowning," causing the prisoner to believe he is about to die, is undoubtedly a form of psychological torture. The international community recognizes "mock executions" as a form of torture, and many place water boarding in that category. In 1947, a Japanese soldier who used water boarding against a U.S. citizen during World War II was sentenced to 15 years in U.S. prison for committing a war crime.


Is waterboarding "torture"? What do you think, safe in your armchair insisting it's just a "dunk in the water"?

There is that damn pesky word severe, which the OLC determined that waterboarding didn't cause severe pain or suffering.

Wow, should the 'details' be looked at? How much easier to condemn based on the Japanese WWII citation, ignoring other atrocities, not too mention the differences, based on the agreements.

Or better yet, just ignore the fact that our government sentenced people for war crimes for waterboarding.

Things were different back then. It's not the same. Back then, it was other governments doing it. Now its our government doing it.

Why does it have to be so difficult?

 

[jreeves]

There is that damn pesky word severe, which the OLC determined that waterboarding didn't cause severe pain or suffering.

Wow, should the 'details' be looked at? How much easier to condemn based on the Japanese WWII citation, ignoring other atrocities, not too mention the differences, based on the agreements.

Or better yet, just ignore the fact that our government sentenced people for war crimes for waterboarding.

Things were different back then. It's not the same. Back then, it was other governments doing it. Now its our government doing it.

Why does it have to be so difficult?

Look at the details, the two types of waterboarding weren't the same. Would you like to know some of the other atrocities that the Japanese criminals committed?