Child bride in Yemen dies of internal bleeding on wedding night: activist

[Roudy]

The entire Koran contradicts itself. What can we expect from an illiterate thug who hijacked Judaism and Christianity without being able to read a single word of their hoy books, and then comment and criticize it?

The Sahih Bukhari and Sahih Muslim aren't part of the Quran, nor was anything that I posted. Nor did Muhammad write them, in fact they weren't compiled until almost 200 years after his death. How can you pretend to be well versed in this stuff and not know that?

That's really basic stuff.

Did I say I am "well versed"? Does one need to know the New Testament by heart or be "well versed" to know enough about Christianity or Jesus? I know enough about Islam and how it applies and affects Muslim life. The effects of which we are seeing on a global basis, including, but not limited to, having to take off shoes at airports, and surrender large liquid containers, being exposed to all kinds of damaging rays and long lines. And that's the tip of the iceberg.

 

[Coyote]

An intelligent poster.

Whilst child marriage is clearly a problem as big as it is nasty in some Muslim countries, it also happens far too often in other cultures.
Sometimes it's poverty whist others do it for cultural reasons.
Many such cultures, perhaps the Mosuo being the strangest, are totally alien to western norms and many would consider their ideal of 'walking marriage' very strange indeed.

Basically, for the less than well educated, a girl becomes a potential sexual partner after her first period, will take as many lovers as she wishes during her life but never marry.
Kids are brought up by the women and men have absolutely no say in anything outside farming.

To actual child marriage.
As we'll see from the map, the spread is far greater in poorer countries than in richer ones.
Unlike the dafter poster (Sub quoted), if we use our brains, we see the problem isn't a Muslim one but one of social group and lack of cash.

I am guessing that the Muslim-haters and their groupies did not bother to look at that map you posted. A number of the countries are not Muslim.

That won't make any difference in the anti-Muslim hatefest, but that is a good post

It's not a hate fest, it is a fact of life. Child brides and lack of women's rights are not exclusive but prevalent in Muslim societies, and that is mainly due to religious influences which have become part of the culture. The more religious and Islamic, the more child abuse and less women's rights. Another fact. We can run but we can't hide. It is what it is.

It is what it is indeed - and what it is is not as simple as you make it out to be. It's not simply a matter of religion because in those regions, child brides are occur amongst all religions (for example the number is high in Mexico - hardly a Muslim country). There are many countries - for example Hindu dominated India, that have atrocious records of women's rights. Many African countries (both dominant Muslim and Christian) are similar in that respect. If you are going to tack some sort of sanctioned religious pedophilia to it - then you overlook both your own religion and Christianity in which child marriages and bigamy were the norm of their ancient worlds.

Making up excuses or false comparisons just won't do. It is simply because They are emulating Mohammad, who married a 9 year old.

It's not making up excuses Roudy - it's confronting bigotry head on. You are taking a real and tragic problem in many areas of the world and using it as a vehicle to promote your own anti-Muslim rhetoric and that is just plain sad.

 

[Roudy]

I am guessing that the Muslim-haters and their groupies did not bother to look at that map you posted. A number of the countries are not Muslim.

That won't make any difference in the anti-Muslim hatefest, but that is a good post

It's not a hate fest, it is a fact of life. Child brides and lack of women's rights are not exclusive but prevalent in Muslim societies, and that is mainly due to religious influences which have become part of the culture. The more religious and Islamic, the more child abuse and less women's rights. Another fact. We can run but we can't hide. It is what it is.

It is what it is indeed - and what it is is not as simple as you make it out to be. It's not simply a matter of religion because in those regions, child brides are occur amongst all religions (for example the number is high in Mexico - hardly a Muslim country). There are many countries - for example Hindu dominated India, that have atrocious records of women's rights. Many African countries (both dominant Muslim and Christian) are similar in that respect. If you are going to tack some sort of sanctioned religious pedophilia to it - then you overlook both your own religion and Christianity in which child marriages and bigamy were the norm of their ancient worlds.

Making up excuses or false comparisons just won't do. It is simply because They are emulating Mohammad, who married a 9 year old.

It's not making up excuses Roudy - it's confronting bigotry head on. You are taking a real and tragic problem in many areas of the world and using it as a vehicle to promote your own anti-Muslim rhetoric and that is just plain sad.

Saying that the reason Muslim men marry 9 year olds is because of their religion and Shariah law, is not bigotry ,it is the truth. The reasons could be different in non muslim societies. Saudi Arabia and Iran are not "impoverished" countries, yet it is indisputable fact that child marriages occur due to Islamic teachings.

 

[Coyote]

It's not a hate fest, it is a fact of life. Child brides and lack of women's rights are not exclusive but prevalent in Muslim societies, and that is mainly due to religious influences which have become part of the culture. The more religious and Islamic, the more child abuse and less women's rights. Another fact. We can run but we can't hide. It is what it is.

It is what it is indeed - and what it is is not as simple as you make it out to be. It's not simply a matter of religion because in those regions, child brides are occur amongst all religions (for example the number is high in Mexico - hardly a Muslim country). There are many countries - for example Hindu dominated India, that have atrocious records of women's rights. Many African countries (both dominant Muslim and Christian) are similar in that respect. If you are going to tack some sort of sanctioned religious pedophilia to it - then you overlook both your own religion and Christianity in which child marriages and bigamy were the norm of their ancient worlds.

Making up excuses or false comparisons just won't do. It is simply because They are emulating Mohammad, who married a 9 year old.

It's not making up excuses Roudy - it's confronting bigotry head on. You are taking a real and tragic problem in many areas of the world and using it as a vehicle to promote your own anti-Muslim rhetoric and that is just plain sad.

Saying that the reason Muslim marry 9 years is because of their religion and Shariah law, is not bigotry. The reasons could be different in non muslim societies. Saudi Arabia and Iran are not "impoverished" countries yet it is indisputable fact that child marriages occur due to Islamic teachings.

Saying it's "because" of their religion is not proof that it's "becuase" of their religion. You completely overlook facts presented over and over. It's a widespread problem that occurs in non-Islamic countries, it doesn't occur in all Islamic countries, and it PRE-DATES Islam. You completely overlook the fact that child marriages were largely the norm in the ancient world and that birthdates and ages were not well recorded. You claim it's due to "Islamic Teachings" but have yet to provide any of those teachings except your claim that they seek to emulate Mohammed who, oddly, preferred adult women since all his other wives were adults at marriage.

In other words you select your "facts" to fit your bias

 

[Osomir]

Did I say I am "well versed"?

Yes actually. Here: http://www.usmessageboard.com/middle-east-general/312066-the-stolen-land-of-iran-10.html#post7820737 you went on about how you've lived with Muslims your entire life and how your father knew most of the Quran by heart and how you knew more about Iranian culture (which one would assume would include theological or even basic knowledge of Islam) than i ever could.

And yet you not only didn't know that the Bukhari and Muslim collections (the most well known Hadith collections in the world) aren't shia (something anyone who has grown up with Muslims their entire life should know) but that they weren't written by Muhammad and aren't in the Quran (something anyone who has ever looked at Islamic theology even in passing should know).

You don't need to be well versed in Islam to know this stuff, these are the very basics, about as basic as you can get.

It would be like Christians confusing a priest's sermon or the apocrypha as a book of the Bible, or thinking that Jesus was the writer of the Bible, or that the 12 apostles hung out with Adam and Eve in the Book of Genesis.

I know enough about Islam and how it applies and affects Muslim life.

You obviously know very little if you don't even know the difference between hadith collections and the Quran.

How can you pretend to have any understanding of Shariah law sets and how they are derived when you don't even know what hadiths are?

 

[Coyote]

Interestingly, Saudi Arabia and Iran, which you single out for religiousity and child marriage are not amongst the top contenders for child brides.

Early and forced marriage - facts and figures - Plan UK

One in every five girls in the developing world is married by the age of 18. One in nine marries before they reach the age of 15. In countries like Niger, Chad, Mali, Bangladesh, Guinea and the Central African Republic (CAR), the rate of early and forced marriage is 60 per cent and over. Child brides are particularly prevalent in South Asia (46 per cent) and in sub-Saharan Africa (38 per cent).

 

[Osomir]

Interestingly, Saudi Arabia and Iran, which you single out for religiousity and child marriage are not amongst the top contenders for child brides.

Early and forced marriage - facts and figures - Plan UK

One in every five girls in the developing world is married by the age of 18. One in nine marries before they reach the age of 15. In countries like Niger, Chad, Mali, Bangladesh, Guinea and the Central African Republic (CAR), the rate of early and forced marriage is 60 per cent and over. Child brides are particularly prevalent in South Asia (46 per cent) and in sub-Saharan Africa (38 per cent).

And as far as total numbers go, India alone accounts for about 1/3rd of the world's total.

 

[Roudy]

It is what it is indeed - and what it is is not as simple as you make it out to be. It's not simply a matter of religion because in those regions, child brides are occur amongst all religions (for example the number is high in Mexico - hardly a Muslim country). There are many countries - for example Hindu dominated India, that have atrocious records of women's rights. Many African countries (both dominant Muslim and Christian) are similar in that respect. If you are going to tack some sort of sanctioned religious pedophilia to it - then you overlook both your own religion and Christianity in which child marriages and bigamy were the norm of their ancient worlds.




It's not making up excuses Roudy - it's confronting bigotry head on. You are taking a real and tragic problem in many areas of the world and using it as a vehicle to promote your own anti-Muslim rhetoric and that is just plain sad.

Saying that the reason Muslim marry 9 years is because of their religion and Shariah law, is not bigotry. The reasons could be different in non muslim societies. Saudi Arabia and Iran are not "impoverished" countries yet it is indisputable fact that child marriages occur due to Islamic teachings.

Saying it's "because" of their religion is not proof that it's "becuase" of their religion. You completely overlook facts presented over and over. It's a widespread problem that occurs in non-Islamic countries, it doesn't occur in all Islamic countries, and it PRE-DATES Islam. You completely overlook the fact that child marriages were largely the norm in the ancient world and that birthdates and ages were not well recorded. You claim it's due to "Islamic Teachings" but have yet to provide any of those teachings except your claim that they seek to emulate Mohammed who, oddly, preferred adult women since all his other wives were adults at marriage.

In other words you select your "facts" to fit your bias

He married the older ones for money, to help finance his conquests, the way Kings used to in medieval Europe.

If you want verses they are easily available but I can provide them. And yes, it is because they are emulating Mohammad in every way, including his marriage to Aisha. These are all very religious societies, almost everything they do has to do with their religion in one shape or another.

 

[Osomir]

He married the older ones for money, to help finance his conquests, the way Kings used to in medieval Europe.

Now you're just showing a poor understanding of basic Islamic history. This is when actually having read a book on Islamic history might have come in handy

If you want verses they are easily available but I can provide them. And yes, it is because they are emulating Mohammad in every way, including his marriage to Aisha. These are all very religious societies, almost everything they do has to do with their religion in one shape or another.

Except any Islamic country that doesn't fit into your generalization though right?

 

[Roudy]

Interestingly, Saudi Arabia and Iran, which you single out for religiousity and child marriage are not amongst the top contenders for child brides.

Early and forced marriage - facts and figures - Plan UK

One in every five girls in the developing world is married by the age of 18. One in nine marries before they reach the age of 15. In countries like Niger, Chad, Mali, Bangladesh, Guinea and the Central African Republic (CAR), the rate of early and forced marriage is 60 per cent and over. Child brides are particularly prevalent in South Asia (46 per cent) and in sub-Saharan Africa (38 per cent).

And as far as total numbers go, India alone accounts for about 1/3rd of the world's total.

Jaysus, ya think it has anything to do with India being one of the populous countries in the world? There are just 300 million Muslims in India alone.

 

[Roudy]

He married the older ones for money, to help finance his conquests, the way Kings used to in medieval Europe.

Now you're just showing a poor understanding of basic Islamic history. This is when actually having read a book on Islamic history might have come in handy

If you want verses they are easily available but I can provide them. And yes, it is because they are emulating Mohammad in every way, including his marriage to Aisha. These are all very religious societies, almost everything they do has to do with their religion in one shape or another.

Except any Islamic country that doesn't fit into your generalization though right?

Fair enough. Show me ONE Muslim country that practices child marriage not because of Islam or Shariah law.

You're running on empty buddy.

 

[Roudy]

He married the older ones for money, to help finance his conquests, the way Kings used to in medieval Europe.

Now you're just showing a poor understanding of basic Islamic history. This is when actually having read a book on Islamic history might have come in handy

If you want verses they are easily available but I can provide them. And yes, it is because they are emulating Mohammad in every way, including his marriage to Aisha. These are all very religious societies, almost everything they do has to do with their religion in one shape or another.

Except any Islamic country that doesn't fit into your generalization though right?

The fact that Mohammad married a 9 year old is almost universally accepted by the Muslim world. Hence the prevalence of child marriages in Muslim countries. In fact, it is the Muslims themselves that tell you this.

I don't understand why this is so hard for some to understand. Mohammad married a child and therefore that's why his followers do.

 

[Osomir]

Fair enough. Show me ONE Muslim country that practices child marriage not because of Islam or Shariah law.

Child marriage pre-dates Islam in a lot of countries.

You're running on empty buddy.

Says the guy who doesn't even know the difference between the Quran and Hadith collections.

Seriously, how can you pretend to know anything about Islamic theology or legal sets when you have absolutely no previous understanding of the differences between the Quran and Hadiths?

 

[Roudy]

He married the older ones for money, to help finance his conquests, the way Kings used to in medieval Europe.

Now you're just showing a poor understanding of basic Islamic history. This is when actually having read a book on Islamic history might have come in handy

If you want verses they are easily available but I can provide them. And yes, it is because they are emulating Mohammad in every way, including his marriage to Aisha. These are all very religious societies, almost everything they do has to do with their religion in one shape or another.

Except any Islamic country that doesn't fit into your generalization though right?

Untitled

"Islam did not rise except through Ali's sword and Khadija's wealth," a saying goes. Khadija al-Kubra daughter of Khuwaylid ibn (son of) Asad ibn Abdul-`Uzza ibn Qusayy belonged to the clan of Banu Hashim of the tribe of Banu Asad. She was a distant cousin of her husband the Messenger of Allah Muhammad ibn Abdullah ibn Abdul-Muttalib ibn Hashim ibn Abd Manaf ibn Qusayy, Allah's peace and blessings be upon him and his progeny.

 

[Roudy]

Fair enough. Show me ONE Muslim country that practices child marriage not because of Islam or Shariah law.

Child marriage pre-dates Islam in a lot of countries.

You're running on empty buddy.

Says the guy who doesn't even know the difference between the Quran and Hadith collections.

Seriously, how can you pretend to know anything about Islamic theology or legal sets when you have absolutely no previous understanding of the differences between the Quran and Hadiths?

One more time, show me a Muslim country where the reason for child marriages can be attributed to reasons other than Islam and Shariah law.

 

[Coyote]

Fair enough. Show me ONE Muslim country that practices child marriage not because of Islam or Shariah law.

Child marriage pre-dates Islam in a lot of countries.

You're running on empty buddy.

Says the guy who doesn't even know the difference between the Quran and Hadith collections.

Seriously, how can you pretend to know anything about Islamic theology or legal sets when you have absolutely no previous understanding of the differences between the Quran and Hadiths?

One more time, show me a Muslim country where the reason for child marriages can be attributed to reasons other than Islam and Shariah law.

Child marriages pre-date Islam.

Can you find me anything in Shariah law that mandates child marriages?

Your logic isn't working - you are asking him to prove a negative.

 

[Roudy]

Did I say I am "well versed"?

Yes actually. Here: http://www.usmessageboard.com/middle-east-general/312066-the-stolen-land-of-iran-10.html#post7820737 you went on about how you've lived with Muslims your entire life and how your father knew most of the Quran by heart and how you knew more about Iranian culture (which one would assume would include theological or even basic knowledge of Islam) than i ever could.

And yet you not only didn't know that the Bukhari and Muslim collections (the most well known Hadith collections in the world) aren't shia (something anyone who has grown up with Muslims their entire life should know) but that they weren't written by Muhammad and aren't in the Quran (something anyone who has ever looked at Islamic theology even in passing should know).

You don't need to be well versed in Islam to know this stuff, these are the very basics, about as basic as you can get.

It would be like Christians confusing a priest's sermon or the apocrypha as a book of the Bible, or thinking that Jesus was the writer of the Bible, or that the 12 apostles hung out with Adam and Eve in the Book of Genesis.

I know enough about Islam and how it applies and affects Muslim life.

You obviously know very little if you don't even know the difference between hadith collections and the Quran.

How can you pretend to have any understanding of Shariah law sets and how they are derived when you don't even know what hadiths are?

Yes, so where did I say I am "well versed"? My father did know the Koran by heart because he was forced to as part of his education, even if he was not a Muslim. And I am familiar with the Koran and Muslims as I grew up with them. In fact I have Muslim friends. Did I study the Koran like a devout Muslim, like you would? No why do I need to do that. However that doesn't negate my knowledge or my claims. Do I need to be a rabbi or priest to know about Judaism or Christianity? Get a grip on yourself. LOL.

 

[Osomir]

"Islam did not rise except through Ali's sword and Khadija's wealth," a saying goes. Khadija al-Kubra daughter of Khuwaylid ibn (son of) Asad ibn Abdul-`Uzza ibn Qusayy belonged to the clan of Banu Hashim of the tribe of Banu Asad. She was a distant cousin of her husband the Messenger of Allah Muhammad ibn Abdullah ibn Abdul-Muttalib ibn Hashim ibn Abd Manaf ibn Qusayy, Allah's peace and blessings be upon him and his progeny.

1.) He married Khadija (who was older than he and with whom he remained monogamous with until her death) long before any sort of military conquest and even before his break with Mecca.

2.) Khadija was the one who approached him for marriage, not the other way around.

3.) Khadija even died before any military action or war was declared or engaged in and before Muhammad's break with Mecca (when his uncle died and he lost his social protection from assassination).

4.) Seriously, try actually reading a book. Karen Armstrong's biography on Muhammad is pretty good and she isn't even a Muslim so you don't have to hate her (she was a former Catholic nun).

 

[Roudy]

Child marriage pre-dates Islam in a lot of countries.



Says the guy who doesn't even know the difference between the Quran and Hadith collections.

Seriously, how can you pretend to know anything about Islamic theology or legal sets when you have absolutely no previous understanding of the differences between the Quran and Hadiths?

One more time, show me a Muslim country where the reason for child marriages can be attributed to reasons other than Islam and Shariah law.

Child marriages pre-date Islam.

Can you find me anything in Shariah law that mandates child marriages?

Your logic isn't working - you are asking him to prove a negative.

And now a dose of reality:
Child marriage - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Lower legally allowed marriage age does not necessarily cause high rates of child marriages. However, there is a causative correlation between restrictions placed by laws and the average age of first marriage. In the United States, per 1960 Census data, 3.5% of girls married before the age of 16, while an additional 11.9% married between 16 and 18. States with lower marriage age limits saw higher percentages of child marriages.[7] This correlation between higher age of marriage in civil law and observed frequency of child marriages breaks down in countries with Islam as the state religion. In Islamic nations, many countries do not allow child marriage of girls under their civil code of laws. But, the state recognized Sharia religious laws and courts in all these nations have the power to override the civil code, and often do. UNICEF reports that the top five nations in the world - Niger (75%), Chad (72%), Mali (71%), Bangladesh (64%), Guinea (63%) - with highest observed child marriage rates are all Islamic majority countries.[2]

 

[Osomir]

And I am familiar with the Koran and Muslims as I grew up with them.

Once again how can you claim to be familiar with the Quran when you got it confused with the Sahih Muslim and Sahih Bukhari? Children know the difference between the two.

Did I study the Koran like a devout Muslim, like you would?

I don't think that you are quite grasping here that it in no way takes any sort of devout study to be able to distinguish between the Quran and hadith collections. Those things are about as basic as you can get. It would be like Christians not knowing who the apostles were, but claiming to have a decent understanding of the Bible.

It's ridiculous.

No why do I need to do that. However that doesn't negate my knowledge or my claims. Do I need to be a rabbi or priest to know about Judaism or Christianity? Get a grip on yourself. LOL.

And what's worse, you're apparently proud of your lack of education on the subject. Seriously, get some self respect.