Christian bakers who refused cake order for gay wedding forced to close shop

[paperview]

The cake is a lie.

 

[emilynghiem]

Yes G5000. Shellfish and bottomdwellers as seafood are bad for you. That wisdom is still true. And Pork is bad, even if it is cooked well, there are health issues with it.

So the wisdom in the Bible is true; and Buddhist and Nation of Islam and other spiritual groups are finding this out and following that for better health.

As for homosexuality, adultery in general is bad for the physical mental emotional and relationship health of people. Homosexuality just happens to be one expression of sex between people outside of a committed marital relationship.

Many Buddhists recognize homosexual relations are not natural, and they are not judgmental. The problem is teh karma that goes into people incarnated or manifesting in homosexual relations -- some karma can be that from person, but some of it may not be; so not all cases are the same and that is why it's impossible to judge from the outside.

In the end, the common factor is that it causes suffering. Something is wrong where it causes these conflicts. It is NOT natural. People may be born to live a life this way, but there is something unnatural causing it. Just because we don't judge the person for it, doesn't make it natural. It is still a sign of something out of balance outside the norm.

Adultery, fornication, promiscuity cause disease. It's not like they had antibiotics in those days. Better to just make a rule that says "don't".

Examination of Egyptian mummies do show the existence of an AIDS like virus. Egypt at its end normalized homosexuality. It does not take a biblical scholar to figure out that these rules made exceptional sense for the time. Don't allow a menstruating woman in your house at least until kotex is invented. Do not suffer a witch to live because those women who make a living gathering plants and small animals out in the wilderness make poisons that can kill days after the witch has moved on.

They were freaking geniuses to have figured out that much.

All dead people can have viruses in them and the viruses that the Egyptian mummies in no way indicated anything whatsoever that they were as a result of the mummies being homosexual or having been involved in homosexual sex.
Your claim is the craziest shit and stretch I have ever heard. Totally false and without any basis in fact whatsoever. Your claim that Egypt at its end normalized is also absurd. Other than a few drawings that some interpreted to be men embracing what evidence do you have to support your absurd claims?

Dear Gadawg and Katzndogz:
The simplest way i could sum up the common factor, in whether good things pass on and multiply or bad things escalate and implode on people, is not whether we are perfect or not, but whether we FORGIVE our faults so we can correct them and grow in bigger upward directions.

all these negatives you cite, nobody would be engaging in ill poisonings or things bringing on disease if they were healthy spiritually.

So that forgiveness or unforgiveness is the common factor.
And then it manifests as all this ill, whether someone's choice, unnatural or natural,
environmental or nurture. Things go wrong and don't get healed or corrected if
there is more ill will going on than good will.

So this power of good will to overcome bad will
is what it means to put God's will first, to do all things with love and truth
that place the "greater good of humanity" above any selfish reasons and choices.

You don't have to argue using the Bible to defend what is good will!

If it's not good for humanity and health in general, then it is on the side of
causing problems and imbalance. Religions have been used to establish agreement
on standards, but that does not work with people under different ways of
expressing universal laws or truths. why not stick to common wisdom you
both agree makes sense? that should be enough to arrive at the same
conclusions what is healthy or not. what is natural or not. just pure common sense!

 

[emilynghiem]

The cake is a lie.

And maybe the icing on the cake is equally sinful?

 

[Gadawg73]

Adultery, fornication, promiscuity cause disease. It's not like they had antibiotics in those days. Better to just make a rule that says "don't".

Examination of Egyptian mummies do show the existence of an AIDS like virus. Egypt at its end normalized homosexuality. It does not take a biblical scholar to figure out that these rules made exceptional sense for the time. Don't allow a menstruating woman in your house at least until kotex is invented. Do not suffer a witch to live because those women who make a living gathering plants and small animals out in the wilderness make poisons that can kill days after the witch has moved on.

They were freaking geniuses to have figured out that much.

All dead people can have viruses in them and the viruses that the Egyptian mummies in no way indicated anything whatsoever that they were as a result of the mummies being homosexual or having been involved in homosexual sex.
Your claim is the craziest shit and stretch I have ever heard. Totally false and without any basis in fact whatsoever. Your claim that Egypt at its end normalized is also absurd. Other than a few drawings that some interpreted to be men embracing what evidence do you have to support your absurd claims?

Dear Gadawg and Katzndogz:
The simplest way i could sum up the common factor, in whether good things pass on and multiply or bad things escalate and implode on people, is not whether we are perfect or not, but whether we FORGIVE our faults so we can correct them and grow in bigger upward directions.

all these negatives you cite, nobody would be engaging in ill poisonings or things bringing on disease if they were healthy spiritually.

So that forgiveness or unforgiveness is the common factor.
And then it manifests as all this ill, whether someone's choice, unnatural or natural,
environmental or nurture. Things go wrong and don't get healed or corrected if
there is more ill will going on than good will.

So this power of good will to overcome bad will
is what it means to put God's will first, to do all things with love and truth
that place the "greater good of humanity" above any selfish reasons and choices.

You don't have to argue using the Bible to defend what is good will!

If it's not good for humanity and health in general, then it is on the side of
causing problems and imbalance. Religions have been used to establish agreement
on standards, but that does not work with people under different ways of
expressing universal laws or truths. why not stick to common wisdom you
both agree makes sense? that should be enough to arrive at the same
conclusions what is healthy or not. what is natural or not. just pure common sense!

So if my brother breathed Agent Orange going against Charlie for 3 years in The Nam the reason he has cancer and thousands also do, many have died, is because they were not "healthy spiritually"?
You are bat shit crazy on that one.

 

[Hoffstra]

The Old Testament says that if someone curses their parents they should be put to death.

I wonder why all the homophobes refuse to enforce this Biblical law while feel its ok to harrass Gays due to the Bible.

 

[RKMBrown]

Lots of good responses that go in different directions so i'll reply in separate messages.

>>> How is not wanting to serve someone "throwing a stone"?

Great question. One would have to put one's feet in the shoes of the people in question. That's why I mentioned the refusal to serve black people. Remember "whites" only water fountains? Remember back of the bus?... yeah well this is the same thing only gays... refusing to serve gays is a vicious slap... not physical but a violation of human rights none the less. I'm white, as shown, but I've also been violated in this manner by anti-white male bias to "right the wrongs" of my forefathers. Whether it's being overlooked for a promotion cycle because of the color of ones skin and gender, or some other act of discrimination, being discriminated against in this fashion is a vicious blow.

Thank you for sharing your honest thinking and direct/to the point posts and replies.

1. I happen NOT to compare orientation with race. Because I know of cases where "spiritual healing" changed people's homosexual/transgender orientation that
was either caused by abuse or otherwise unnatural to them, unwanted or hurtful.

I have NEVER heard of someone "changing race" because spiritual healing changed it.
If anything, people become at peace with their natural race because of forgiveness healing them, as people who become at peace with their natural orientation following spiritual healing (whether they make peace with being gay, straight, trans, assexual/abstinent etc.)

So the same way you say 2. is not equivalent, I say 1 is also two different things also!

Two different topics, yes. But both are equally bad to be a victim of, from perspective of the victim. What does it matter why a person is being victimized? There is some subtle hint here that the victimization is justified in the case of orientation. I disagree. Is there a possibility someone can change orientation? why not.. But what point does it make to justify it? Because orientation can and has changed in some cases? Just because I can change gender from male to female, does that mean discrimination against males is suddenly ok because I have a way out of being male?

 

[JOSweetHeart]

The Old Testament says that if someone curses their parents they should be put to death.

I wonder why all the homophobes refuse to enforce this Biblical law while feel its ok to harrass Gays due to the Bible.

My sister cursed my mom the last time that they saw each other. She dropped the F bomb left and right which is why I hate the word so much and as much as I would have wanted to snap my sister in half like a hockey stick had I been there, I know that God will take care of her way better than I ever could...especially if she isn't sorry.

God bless you and my mom always!!!

Holly

P.S. "Thou shall not kill." is the reason why certain "laws" as you call them are not enforced. I guess that this means that God may be the only person who can put people to death.

 

[RKMBrown]

2. I'm saying "for whatever reason" you don't judge people for it. Maybe this is your reasoning, but it shows you don't judge the person for it. So why not respect all reasons?

I happen to be a consent person. If someone has some issue, even if it is wrong, I feel the problem needs to be RESOLVED before asking someone to change it - FREELY by consent.
Or it doesn't solve problems but creates more. (for ex: I am against abortion as most people I know want to avoid it, of course; but am pro-choice because it can't be forced.
No pro-life person I know has to be "forced by law" to have those beliefs. So why not
work things out where all people agree to respect consent by free choice, not by force.)

So if someone has an issue with serving blacks or gays, this or that, this issue/conflict should be addressed BEFORE doing business in any situation REQUIRING it. Why ask for problems to pop up later? why not address them up front? so just forcing people by law is NOT solving the problem. We should be working these things out regardless, just for the good in itself.

You say you are a "consent" person. Ok, I'm a committing harm is bad person...

In your case of abortion, how does the baby provide consent to be killed? Consent only works when the person being harmed is allowed to have a voice, to express consent or not. In the case of the gay person being discriminated against, the gay person did not consent to being harmed, nor did the baker consent to being harmed by being forced to bake for just anyone irregardless of orientation. So that makes this a traditional case requiring judgement to decide who is being harmed. If you believe this to be a civil rights case then which person's rights trump the others: The right of the individual to refuse service or the right of the individual to shop in America without being discriminated against? We created civil rights laws to eliminate discrimination. Honestly I don't see this as any different than race discrimination. If you want to sell to the public at large you should not be able to discriminate based on race, creed, orientation, etc... Well, not and still be able to sell to the public at large.

 

[TemplarKormac]

Not so much. There's maybe one vague reference to marriage being between a man and a woman in the new testament that has nothing to do with gays at all. And the old testament just had one mention to my understanding. The new testament is more than just an augmentation of the old testament. Would you say slavery is not a sin because it's in the bible? Just because there is one reference in the old test. to a Jewish law of antiquity, does not make being gay a sin. Should we be sacrificing goats and stoning sinners in the streets?

Sorry:


Lev. 18:22, "You shall not lie with a male as one lies with a female; it is an abomination."

Lev. 20:13, "If there is a man who lies with a male as those who lie with a woman, both of them have committed a detestable act; they shall surely be put to death. Their bloodguiltness is upon them"

1 Cor. 6:9-10, "Or do you not know that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, 10nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, shall inherit the kingdom of God."

Rom. 1:26-28, "For this reason God gave them over to degrading passions; for their women exchanged the natural function for that which is unnatural, 27 and in the same way also the men abandoned the natural function of the woman and burned in their desire toward one another, men with men committing indecent acts and receiving in their own persons the due penalty of their error. 28 And just as they did not see fit to acknowledge God any longer, God gave them over to a depraved mind, to do those things which are not proper."

Leviticus is the ancient law in the old testament i mentioned, it's from the Torah no less.

The verse in Corinthians is the vague reference in the new testament I mentioned. That reference was actually taking about whether to look for judgement from the Roman government or from the priests of the church. He was admonishing them for using the roman court. Then he lists a set of immoralities that they had done that were washed away by jesus...

The verse in Romans is again vague, talking about lustful sex acts. I suppose this in violation of church sanctified marriage.

Note: These are not told from Jesus. These are from people talking about jewish law and belief at the time.

There are a great many things in the bible that we have out grown. Such as thinking it's ok to have slaves.

Slaves, obey your earthly masters with deep respect and fear. Serve them sincerely as you would serve Christ. (Ephesians 6:5 NLT)

Christians who are slaves should give their masters full respect so that the name of God and his teaching will not be shamed. If your master is a Christian, that is no excuse for being disrespectful. You should work all the harder because you are helping another believer by your efforts. Teach these truths, Timothy, and encourage everyone to obey them. (1 Timothy 6:1-2 NLT)

The servant will be severely punished, for though he knew his duty, he refused to do it. "But people who are not aware that they are doing wrong will be punished only lightly. Much is required from those to whom much is given, and much more is required from those to whom much more is given." (Luke 12:47-48 NLT)

If the duty is just yes, he is to be punished. They entered into a contract, remember? Sigh, nice try though. You can't just explain me away Mr. Brown. Get serious.

 

[RKMBrown]

3. Actually, yes there are places to work with even extremely biased/intolerant groups
if you can pinpoint what their real focus or issue is they want to achieve.

I had spoken at length by phone with a Grand Dragon of the Klan, about how could we achieve the same goals they want for segregation and preservation of separate races WITHOUT breaking laws or imposing/oppressing unfairly?

One solution I mentioned was organizing communities and govts like university departments, where you HAVE people who specialize in "African American" culture/studies working on solving problems in both Africa and American, and guaranteeing self-representation and self-determination so there IS a recognition and allowance for the Black communities to represent themselves, as with the KKK wanting to represent themselves.

The difference is this affiliation is done FREELY not forced by discrimination or ugliness.

The Asian American interests are organized among those interested in this area.
And so why not the European American cultural interests and history? Everyone can be equally included, protected and cherished as a contributing culture to society worldwide.

So there is a way to work tolerably with groups with strong beliefs in this area.
I know someone whose Black relatives were friends with KKK in the South/Alabama and worked together because there was respect between families as having their own ways.

Yes, these issues are correcting themselves over time. We are becoming more civilized in some respects. It may not seem that way. But in my experience most people are focused on the now so much that they loose track of just how far we've come.

I live in a somewhat mixed family. I have a gay brother in law, a black sister in law, ...
We've come a very long way since the race riots of the 60s and 70s..

I thank you as well for the reasoned argument. FYI I'm very willing to change my mind on issues, for example, I used to hold your same opinion on the gay issues.

 

[Vandalshandle]

I find it fascinating how fundamental christains have decided that when the Bible says that homosexuality is an abomination, it is a sin, for which you can burn in hell, but when the Bible says that eating shellfish is an abomination, it is mearly a good suggestion since it might make you sick. This begs the question of all you cherry pickers: Is the crop good this year?

 

[TemplarKormac]

Besides:

The Law of Moses calls for the release of servants maimed by their employers:

26 An owner who hits a male or female slave in the eye and destroys it must let the slave go free to compensate for the eye. 27 And an owner who knocks out the tooth of a male or female slave must let the slave go free to compensate for the tooth.

Exodus 21:26-27

The Mosaic Law also condemns kidnapping a person to sell as a slave—an act punishable by death:

16 Anyone who kidnaps someone is to be put to death, whether the victim has been sold or is still in the kidnapper’s possession.

Exodus 21:16

7 If someone is caught kidnapping a fellow Israelite and treating or selling them as a slave, the kidnapper must die. You must purge the evil from among you.

Deuteronomy 24:7

Unlike the antebellum South, Israel was to offer safe harbor to (foreign) runaway slaves:

15 If a slave has taken refuge with you, do not hand them over to their master. 16 Let them live among you wherever they like and in whatever town they choose. Do not oppress them.

Deuteronomy 23:15

For one thing, the term “slave” or “slavery” in the Old Testament is often a mistranslation. The Mosaic Law typically refers to “servitude” as indentured service--much like arrangements in colonial America: those who couldn’t pay for their voyage to the New World would work for seven years to pay off their debt, and then they were free to operate in society as ordinary citizens.

What’s interesting about contracted servitude in Israel was that it was, first of all, voluntary: a person would “sell himself” or parcel out family members to work, and they would in return receive clothing, a roof over their heads, and food on the table. Servitude was also limited to seven years unless the servant voluntarily chose lifelong servitude, which brought both stability and security in difficult economic times.

I do know what I'm talking about.

 

[JoeB131]

People have the right to refuse to buy from a place.

and that's fine

the fact liberals went national with this is the real evil and tyranny. You got what you wanted, every little business now knows they must submit to any leftist ideal or else.

grats, you got what you wanted and now you don't like it. Tough, this is who you are and what team you support is.

People have a right to refuse to buy.

Businesses do not have a right to refuse to sell. This is actually black letter law.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

Because someone holds an idea that conflicts with your own, is not prima facie evidence that they are an idiot.

Anyone that thinks Columbus proved the Earth is round is an idiot.

Shit... do you mean to say that the Earth isn't FLAT? Dayyyuummmm!

Yeah, that is what I meant.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

Christian bakers who refused cake order for gay wedding forced to close shop - Washington Times

A year ago I would have said 'good.' But actually seeing that it happened, - I don't like how this feels. They shouldn't have been treated as they have been treated, not in my estimation.

They shouldn't have received threats to their safety. But they deserve every bit of lost business. They willingly flouted Oregon discrimination law out of their hatred for the gays - (oh, right, they don't 'hate' the gays, they just hate everything about the gays that makes them not straight - such a distinction) - I fail to see how any reasonable business owner could expect to get away with that. Oregon law is public and discrimination laws should be among the first laws that business owners learn about if they give a crap about actually abiding by the law.

Refusing to bake a cake for a ceremony you disagree with means you hate people? Does that mean people that refuse to make cakes for human toilet coming out parties hate kinky people?

 

[Quantum Windbag]

Do fags have to abide by the law?

The homosexual couple were not in the wrong here. The bakers were.

Neither were in the wrong. Before we started drawing bulls-eyes on the perceived "politically incorrect", the bakers had the right to refuse, and the couple had the right to shop elsewhere. And it ended there.
Today there is targeting, and a lopsided tolerance. The ones that demand it, have none.

It didn't end there, the couple filed a complaint with the state in order to force other people who bake cakes to conform to their beliefs.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

Gay rights go far FAR beyond gay marriage. It's a whole re-educative political agenda. Is about making people feel bad for being "homophobic". The definition of homophobia is changing and it will ultimately include people (and churches and businessmen) who oppose gay marriage.

When there is no legit reason to oppose marriage, one must wonder if the opposition is not, in fact, homophobia.

Where there is no legitimate reason to oppose free choice one must conclude that the person is a totalitarian asshole.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

A business is judged on the quality of their product and how they treat their customers

If a bakery makes horrible cakes then the customer is justified to let the community know that they make bad cakes
If a bakery refuses to serve you, the customer is justified to let the community know why they weren't served

And the bakery is equally justified in explaining that they don't serve assholes who want the state to force people into slavery.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

A baker has the right to say "We refuse to serve gay weddings and are willing to face the consequences"

Do they really think their decisions have no consequences?

Does the couple that thinks they can force people into slavery believe they can escape the consequences?

 

[Katzndogz]

I had a grandmother on the other side of the family that taught us that God would make usg blind if we masturbated.
I wondered if I could do it up and until I needed glasses.
The stupid shit many religious folks believe.

You don't know that she really believed that as a religious principle or just was using it as a stern warning.

In the supermarket I opened my bag of chocolate chips and was eating them in the checkout line. A man behind me said "Don't eat those. They aren't cooked you'll get sick." His mother told him that to keep him from eating the chips meant for cookie baking.