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Yeah, it does. It is a violation of my conscience. The gay couple should have enough decency to respect my beliefs in the same way they would want me to respect theirs. They only wish this to be one sided. Utter submission, no questions asked. Serve us or be sued out of business.
They are my friends because I am tolerant of their beliefs, they know full well I will never condone them. For it, they respect that, and we carry on a friendship regardless of what the PC crowd thinks. And no, I am working to disprove the notion that Christians are bigots. I am far from being a champion of homosexuality. Regardless of my views on homosexuality, I will never in my lifetime mistreat one.
Yeah, I thought that'd ring a bell. I know you are desperately trying to turn my argument on its head, but you can't. I doubt you can fathom how a Christian can get along with a homosexual. I bet you are raking that head of yours "THIS IS IMPOSSIBLE!" It's simple, you ignore their infirmities. If it were so easy for a fiery soul like mine to forgive, then why couldn't one lone gay couple do the same?
I don't see how baking a cake can be against your beliefs if you are a baker.
After all that's all this guy had to do was bake a cake and get paid.
He didn't have to agree with the customer's life style all he had to do was treat the person as he would have treated anyone else.
But I guess that's too much to ask.
It was not an issue of baking a cake. It was an issue of where the cake would be assembled.
Had the cake been assembled at the bakery and the customer picked it up there, there would have been no problem and I am 100% certain the baker would have cheerfully baked the cake.
But to assemble the cake at the reception place and thereby become part of the function itself was not within the scope of the baker's conscience. Any more than he would have been comfortable assembling a cake at that KKK convention or at a function at the Westboro Baptist Church or anything else that he could not support in good conscience.
He has the right to live his life and be master of his own convictions every bit as much as that gay couple does.
Those who think it is okay to destroy somebody financially purely because they hold a point of view you don't agree with is unAmerican, evil, and should never be condoned by anybody.
Or better yet, add more to their services provided.
If the couple asks them to go to their gay wedding to deliver it,
the business can ask them to let their prayer teams pray with them for healing
in order to receive a free cake, as part of their charity outreach.
If the couple passes on that, and just wants the free cake,
the business can still give them a free copy of the book
"Can Homosexuality be Healed" explaining the difference
between natural and unnatural cases of homosexuality,
and which cases can be healed by spiritual forgiveness therapy and deliverance.
They don't have to read it, if the business doesn't have to go to their wedding.
[and about the cost of giving away free cakes to couples they cannot do business
with but are not restricted from providing charity, for each request, the business
will distribute that to all sponsors of the program in order to solicit donations or
cakes to give to these couples. So as long as they are willing to have their
names distributed as charitable recipients, they can order their free cakes.
See how that works???]
Seriously? This makes sense to you? Do you know how much a wedding cake costs? Have you ever been married? Have you ever been with another woman?
Precisely my point. Not only does it cost an arm and a leg, you need a few arms and legs to deliver it on site. Are you gonna trust a customer to transport something that expensive on their own? I'm sure they had a delivery service as well. The point here is, given that delivering the cake to the wedding would be the only logical option, do you really sincerely believe that this couple would violate their conscience by rendering aid to something they deemed as sinful?
No. People economizing on their wedding can choose to pick it up and save the delivery charge. Each tier comes in it's own box, when you get to the reception you stick the pylons on the big one, set the next tier on top then put the Steve and mark figurines on top. This task is usually relegated to the mother in law or a sister of the bride.
It's not rocket science.
What's sinful abut a party? As mentined, the cake wasn't going TO THE CEREMONY, it was going to the RECEPTION.
Show me where in the bible god says it is sinful to sell baked goods for a party of homos. It says "THOU HALT NOT BE HOMO"...nothing about selling homos stuff so you can donate a little more to the television preacher.
You have no fucking idea what cake they were going to order.No it wasn't. They have pick up service.
You're still just making things up.
Do you really think that couple could have delivered a multi-tiered cake to their own wedding? Are you stupid?
They never even got to that point. The owner stated plainly he would not bake a cake for the wedding, and told other gay couples in the past he would not as well.
On their website they have all variety of cakes for weddings and they note the pick up option. They charge a dollar mile to deliver it.
I was at a wedding a few months ago. No delivery. Picked up. People do that, you know.
Admit you are talking out of your ass.
One thing is certain, these "homos" won't be able to buy anything from this bakery ever again. Not even a sugar cookie.
They will have to find another bakery, just as they would have had to do to bake their cake.
Except this "new" bakery will think twice about refusing them service based on their sexual orientation.
Oh snap. See how that works?
Actually exercising one's rights in the free market is very American.
Seems you missed this:...do you really sincerely believe that this couple would violate their conscience by rendering aid to something they deemed as sinful?
Quote:
"I was wondering if you could do two little cakes. My friend is a researcher at OHSU and she just got a grant for cloning human stem cells, so I thought Id get her two identical cakesbasically, two little clone cakes. How much would they cost?" the covert reporter asked an employee at Sweet Cakes By Melissa in Gresham, Ore.
Ha. All right. When are you looking to do it? Itll be $25.99 each, so about $50 to start," a bakery employee told the reporter, according to The Willamette Week.
In addition to agreeing to make a cake for a "pagan solstice party" (the reporter requested a pentagram of icing on the cake), Sweet Cakes also agreed to make custom cakes for a divorce party and a party for a woman who'd had multiple babies out of wedlock, the paper notes.
Maybe. but I would not refuse to serve someone in my business because I thoght they were intolerant. That is the very definition of tolerance now isn't it?
I really don't care what people think about me personally. But I do care what the consequences my decisions reap may do to my business.
Conscience? Telling people you are unhappy with a business because they refused a simple request to serve someone has nothing to do with conscience.
It's a simple fact of business that if you piss someone off they'll tell a hundred people about it but if you treat them fantastically they might tell 5.
Which is why you do your best not to piss people off if you care about your business.
I equate this as to them refusing to serve Blacks or Jews even if it was a religious belief to turn away blacks or jews.
But that's just me. Being free of religious dogma allows me treat everyone equally.
BTW can you tell me how baking this cake would somehow make the baker liable for the gay sin?
Any man who would sacrifice his conscience for the wills and whims of other men is not much of a man.
By baking that cake for a gay couple you are expressing condonement for that type of behavior, thus making it sinful.
You are not condoning anything you are getting paid to make a cake
By your logic if being gay is a sin and the baker baked anything for gay people is he not condoning their life style and therefore committing a sin?
Being free of "religious dogma" only allows you to treat others with impunity. This is what I mean by bigotry and intolerance. You folks are all the same, each and every time I encounter you, it's the same old line.
I do give people exemption. If what they do harms no one else why shouldn't I?
I'm sorry but no amount of religious dogma can explain how making birthday cakes for gay people is not a sin but making a wedding cake is.
And I'll ask again what if 2 atheists wanted a wedding cake? Would they be turned down since their marriage would not be sanctioned by the church therefore they would be sinning and by making a cake for sinners the baker is also sinning?
See how utterly ridiculous that argument is yet?
Make cakeNo what you don't understand is the people who boycotted had no issue with the bakers RIGHT to not serve them, even by going to their wedding. However, they chose to subject the baker to econ consequences for the baker's action in denying them catering. The baker can't have his cake and eat it too.
Sounds more like spite and revenge to me.
Spite and revenge is best served with a little cake...
Bingo.It was a boycott. Nobody boycotted "purely because you don't like the opinions of the owner", they boycotted because the owners took it that extra step of physically denying service to customers for no other reason then they were homos.
Nobody is endorsing hateful rhetoric and threats (if indeed they did happen), you just made that up because you're argument is weak and you needed some sensationalizing to breath some life into it.
BTW: Welcome to the forum Alfalfa.
Great to see you here!
What you fail to understand is the fact that after making said cake for the customer, they have to be on site to assemble a cake of that kind. The very act of going there was the issue, THAT'S what violated their conscience, not that cake itself. You people are so incredibly simple minded that you can't see that. Making that bakery go to the gay wedding would be like me making you sleep with a straight person. A crude analogy perhaps, but you simply don't understand when you so easily deny someone their conscience.
Although I'm a non-believer, I'm wondering why separation of Church and State does not apply in this situation?
Essentially the government is allowing persons who have different, and perhaps higher moral standards, to be discriminated against and even threatened physically.
The practical solution to the disagreement should have been for the couple to seek the services desired from another bakery in the competitive marketplace.
The Kleins, in my opinion, have legal grounds to seek and receive damages as a result of the actions taken against them in exercising their 1st Amendment right.
No what you don't understand is the people who boycotted had no issue with the bakers RIGHT to not serve them, even by going to their wedding. However, they chose to subject the baker to econ consequences for the baker's action in denying them catering. The baker can't have his cake and eat it too.
Sounds more like spite and revenge to me.
Spite and revenge is best served with a little cake...
Seriously? This makes sense to you? Do you know how much a wedding cake costs? Have you ever been married? Have you ever been with another woman?
Precisely my point. Not only does it cost an arm and a leg, you need a few arms and legs to deliver it on site. Are you gonna trust a customer to transport something that expensive on their own? I'm sure they had a delivery service as well. The point here is, given that delivering the cake to the wedding would be the only logical option, do you really sincerely believe that this couple would violate their conscience by rendering aid to something they deemed as sinful?
No. People economizing on their wedding can choose to pick it up and save the delivery charge. Each tier comes in it's own box, when you get to the reception you stick the pylons on the big one, set the next tier on top then put the Steve and mark figurines on top. This task is usually relegated to the mother in law or a sister of the bride.
It's not rocket science.
What's sinful abut a party? As mentined, the cake wasn't going TO THEW CEREMONY, it was going to the RECEPTION.
Show me where in the bible god says it is sinful to sell baked goods for a party of homos. It says "THOU HALT NOT BE HOMO"...nothing about selling homos stuff so you can donate a little more to the television preacher.
You're pretty dense, you know that? I have a good mind to put you in the red for doing so. Where specifically in the Bible does it say that we must capitulate ourselves to sinful ways or people?
Bingo.
BTW: Welcome to the forum Alfalfa.
Great to see you here!
What you fail to understand is the fact that after making said cake for the customer, they have to be on site to assemble a cake of that kind. The very act of going there was the issue, THAT'S what violated their conscience, not that cake itself. You people are so incredibly simple minded that you can't see that. Making that bakery go to the gay wedding would be like me making you sleep with a straight person. A crude analogy perhaps, but you simply don't understand when you so easily deny someone their conscience.
So setting up a cake hours beforehand in a nearly empty reception hall is a sin too?
One of their cakes:Seriously? This makes sense to you? Do you know how much a wedding cake costs? Have you ever been married? Have you ever been with another woman?
Precisely my point. Not only does it cost an arm and a leg, you need a few arms and legs to deliver it on site. Are you gonna trust a customer to transport something that expensive on their own? I'm sure they had a delivery service as well. The point here is, given that delivering the cake to the wedding would be the only logical option, do you really sincerely believe that this couple would violate their conscience by rendering aid to something they deemed as sinful?
No. People economizing on their wedding can choose to pick it up and save the delivery charge. Each tier comes in it's own box, when you get to the reception you stick the pylons on the big one, set the next tier on top then put the Steve and mark figurines on top. This task is usually relegated to the mother in law or a sister of the bride.
It's not rocket science.
What's sinful abut a party? As mentined, the cake wasn't going TO THE CEREMONY, it was going to the RECEPTION.
Show me where in the bible god says it is sinful to sell baked goods for a party of homos. It says "THOU HALT NOT BE HOMO"...nothing about selling homos stuff so you can donate a little more to the television preacher.
Wedding Cake Gallery - Sweet Cakes
But Imma tellin' you guys they hafta BE there, with the homoseckshual sinners to make that deviant cake HAPPEN!
Any man who would sacrifice his conscience for the wills and whims of other men is not much of a man.
By baking that cake for a gay couple you are expressing condonement for that type of behavior, thus making it sinful.
You are not condoning anything you are getting paid to make a cake
By your logic if being gay is a sin and the baker baked anything for gay people is he not condoning their life style and therefore committing a sin?
Being free of "religious dogma" only allows you to treat others with impunity. This is what I mean by bigotry and intolerance. You folks are all the same, each and every time I encounter you, it's the same old line.
I do give people exemption. If what they do harms no one else why shouldn't I?
I'm sorry but no amount of religious dogma can explain how making birthday cakes for gay people is not a sin but making a wedding cake is.
And I'll ask again what if 2 atheists wanted a wedding cake? Would they be turned down since their marriage would not be sanctioned by the church therefore they would be sinning and by making a cake for sinners the baker is also sinning?
See how utterly ridiculous that argument is yet?
And the next person could just as easily say that it is ridiculous that you can't see the difference between a birthday cake--all people of all definitions have birthdays every year--and a wedding cake that has to be assembled on location.
And in the end it doesn't matter. If we truly believe in the unalienable right to hold our own convictions, beliefs, and attitudes with impunity no matter who doesn't agree with us, then the bakers are entitled to the same unalienable right.
Unless you think you should be forced to park your truck at the location and be seen carrying a cake into a KKK convention hall and thereby be perceived as condoning that convention, you should be able to understand why a person who does not condone gay marriage should not be forced to participate in that.
To destroy these people purely because you don't share their beliefs and convictions is pure evil.
No it wasn't. They have pick up service.What you fail to understand is the fact that after making said cake for the customer, they have to be on site to assemble a cake of that kind. The very act of going there was the issue, THAT'S what violated their conscience, not that cake itself.
...
You're still just making things up.
Do you really think that couple could have delivered a multi-tiered cake to their own wedding? Are you stupid?
Seems you missed this:...do you really sincerely believe that this couple would violate their conscience by rendering aid to something they deemed as sinful?
Sweet Cakes By Melissa, Oregon Bakery That Refused Lesbian Couple, Pranked By Undercover Reporter
Quote:
"I was wondering if you could do two little cakes. My friend is a researcher at OHSU and she just got a grant for cloning human stem cells, so I thought Id get her two identical cakesbasically, two little clone cakes. How much would they cost?" the covert reporter asked an employee at Sweet Cakes By Melissa in Gresham, Ore.
Ha. All right. When are you looking to do it? Itll be $25.99 each, so about $50 to start," a bakery employee told the reporter, according to The Willamette Week.
In addition to agreeing to make a cake for a "pagan solstice party" (the reporter requested a pentagram of icing on the cake), Sweet Cakes also agreed to make custom cakes for a divorce party and a party for a woman who'd had multiple babies out of wedlock, the paper notes.
Their "Christian" beliefs violatin' seems to be cafeteria style.
The owner denied them service based on their sexual orientation and called them "abominations."Although I'm a non-believer, I'm wondering why separation of Church and State does not apply in this situation?
Essentially the government is allowing persons who have different, and perhaps higher moral standards, to be discriminated against and even threatened physically.
The practical solution to the disagreement should have been for the couple to seek the services desired from another bakery in the competitive marketplace.
The Kleins, in my opinion, have legal grounds to seek and receive damages as a result of the actions taken against them in exercising their 1st Amendment right.
While I agree with you in that this should not have happened and I think the gay community sucks for doing this to people who did nothing to them at all, remember the homosexual couple came to them not the other way around, I do not think the government has a role to play in this at all, as long as there have been no physical assaults, since this is just a form of boycott. Truthfully, it is no different than the techniques used by the pro-life movement against abortion mills.
Immie
Actually exercising one's rights in the free market is very American.
What about one's freedom of speech? Or of religion?
