Conservatives and Empathy

[Bfgrn]

"Making sure all our citizens share in the wealth of the nation" is pure and unadulterated socialism if the idea is implemented into law.

In the original post there was an article cited. In that article it stated

"Get these facts right and you can reach some elegant and surprising conclusions, but get them wrong and you end up with ideas that are totally ridiculous...."

We live in a Democratic Republic. That Democratic Republic was instituted in the premise that all men are created equal and that all men had a right to life liberty and the persuit of happiness. Nowhere in the founding of the country does it say that we should be "Making sure all our citizens share in the wealth of the nation" as a matter of fact it avoided that senario.

I hope I will not see the day that the United States of America goes socialist.

Choke on this...

"The equal rights of man, and the happiness of every individual, are now acknowledged to be the only legitimate objects of government. Modern times have the signal advantage, too, of having discovered the only device by which these rights can be secured, to wit: government by the people, acting not in person, but by representatives chosen by themselves, that is to say, by every man of ripe years and sane mind, who contributes either by his purse or person to the support of his country." --Thomas Jefferson to A. Coray, 1823. ME 15:482

"I willingly acquiesce in the institutions of my country, perfect or imperfect, and think it a duty to leave their modifications to those who are to live under them and are to participate of the good or evil they may produce. The present generation has the same right of self-government which the past one has exercised for itself." --Thomas Jefferson to John Hampden Pleasants, 1824. ME 16:29

"What is true of every member of the society, individually, is true of them all collectively; since the rights of the whole can be no more than the sum of the rights of the individuals." --Thomas Jefferson to James Madison, 1789. ME 7:455, Papers 15:393

"To unequal privileges among members of the same society the spirit of our nation is, with one accord, adverse." --Thomas Jefferson to Hugh White, 1801. ME 10:258

"The most sacred of the duties of a government [is] to do equal and impartial justice to all its citizens." --Thomas Jefferson: Note in Destutt de Tracy, "Political Economy," 1816. ME 14:465

"The legitimate object of Government is to do for a community of people whatever they need to have done but cannot do at all, or cannot so well do, for themselves in their separate and individual capacities. But in all that people can individually do as well for themselves, Government ought not to interfere."
President Abraham Lincoln

"In all those things which deal with people, be liberal, be human. In all those things which deal with people's money, or their economy, or their form of government, be conservative."
President Dwight D. Eisenhower

In all of these rights and entitlements of legislation, nowhere does it preclude my right to the persuit of happines. I still stand strong on my ideas that the present generation is in the midst of destroying the structure that made America great. If they cannot see the result of those actions, maybe it is the responsibility of myself and people who are like minded to bring it to their attention.

Hey edjax1952, WHAT 'rights and entitlements of legislation' are destroying the structure that made America great?

 

[edjax1952]

Choke on this...

"The equal rights of man, and the happiness of every individual, are now acknowledged to be the only legitimate objects of government. Modern times have the signal advantage, too, of having discovered the only device by which these rights can be secured, to wit: government by the people, acting not in person, but by representatives chosen by themselves, that is to say, by every man of ripe years and sane mind, who contributes either by his purse or person to the support of his country." --Thomas Jefferson to A. Coray, 1823. ME 15:482

"I willingly acquiesce in the institutions of my country, perfect or imperfect, and think it a duty to leave their modifications to those who are to live under them and are to participate of the good or evil they may produce. The present generation has the same right of self-government which the past one has exercised for itself." --Thomas Jefferson to John Hampden Pleasants, 1824. ME 16:29

"What is true of every member of the society, individually, is true of them all collectively; since the rights of the whole can be no more than the sum of the rights of the individuals." --Thomas Jefferson to James Madison, 1789. ME 7:455, Papers 15:393

"To unequal privileges among members of the same society the spirit of our nation is, with one accord, adverse." --Thomas Jefferson to Hugh White, 1801. ME 10:258

"The most sacred of the duties of a government [is] to do equal and impartial justice to all its citizens." --Thomas Jefferson: Note in Destutt de Tracy, "Political Economy," 1816. ME 14:465

"The legitimate object of Government is to do for a community of people whatever they need to have done but cannot do at all, or cannot so well do, for themselves in their separate and individual capacities. But in all that people can individually do as well for themselves, Government ought not to interfere."
President Abraham Lincoln

"In all those things which deal with people, be liberal, be human. In all those things which deal with people's money, or their economy, or their form of government, be conservative."
President Dwight D. Eisenhower

In all of these rights and entitlements of legislation, nowhere does it preclude my right to the persuit of happines. I still stand strong on my ideas that the present generation is in the midst of destroying the structure that made America great. If they cannot see the result of those actions, maybe it is the responsibility of myself and people who are like minded to bring it to their attention.

Hey edjax1952, WHAT 'rights and entitlements of legislation' are destroying the structure that made America great?

American Ideas and Solutions › Log In

Social justice is based on the idea that a group of people are entitled to certain treatment or resources due to circumstances other than what the general population experiences. It usually involves taking resources, provided by someone else, and providing them to the group of people. It also involves allowing for different treatment or rights when a group of people do not have access to liberties, rights or resources due to a disadvantaged position in society. It requires government to dictate conditions in order to regulate private affairs and gain “equality” for the disadvantaged group of people. This is one main tool of politicians who call themselves Progressives. Why are they called Progressives? One brick at a time they progressively dismantle the original foundation of our nation, based on freedom and equality for all, to gain government control over each of the issues brought to “social justice”. The government must regulate these issues in order to maintain “equality” through “social justice”. In order to maintain social justice, the government must regulate the behavior of the people to comply with each issue addressed. Each time a law is passed in the name of Social Justice, there is a chip taken away from the liberties and rights of someone. I submit that this practice must be stopped in order to preserve the original foundation of our great country! Read Wikipedia’s definition of Social Justice: Social justice - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Here are some examples:
Using equal justice, the Civil Rights Act gave all people, regardless of race, religion, gender or sexual preference equal rights to participate in the workforce having equal rights to access public resources. This allowed for the freedom of all citizens to access any public resources available without requiring government or institutions to instill mandates to comply with the law. The law was self explanatory and required no physical resources to administer it with the exception that the individual citizen would have to use his own resources to gain access to public resources such as getting to a certain school or job.
Using social justice, integration legislation required employers to hire a ratio of races, and required schools to enroll a ratio of races disregarding cost or need of the institutions. This put the burden of cost on the institutions instead of the individual in order to comply with the law. It required taxpayer money to be spent, such as in the case of school busing.

 

[Bfgrn]

In all of these rights and entitlements of legislation, nowhere does it preclude my right to the persuit of happines. I still stand strong on my ideas that the present generation is in the midst of destroying the structure that made America great. If they cannot see the result of those actions, maybe it is the responsibility of myself and people who are like minded to bring it to their attention.

Hey edjax1952, WHAT 'rights and entitlements of legislation' are destroying the structure that made America great?

American Ideas and Solutions › Log In

Social justice is based on the idea that a group of people are entitled to certain treatment or resources due to circumstances other than what the general population experiences. It usually involves taking resources, provided by someone else, and providing them to the group of people. It also involves allowing for different treatment or rights when a group of people do not have access to liberties, rights or resources due to a disadvantaged position in society. It requires government to dictate conditions in order to regulate private affairs and gain “equality” for the disadvantaged group of people. This is one main tool of politicians who call themselves Progressives. Why are they called Progressives? One brick at a time they progressively dismantle the original foundation of our nation, based on freedom and equality for all, to gain government control over each of the issues brought to “social justice”. The government must regulate these issues in order to maintain “equality” through “social justice”. In order to maintain social justice, the government must regulate the behavior of the people to comply with each issue addressed. Each time a law is passed in the name of Social Justice, there is a chip taken away from the liberties and rights of someone. I submit that this practice must be stopped in order to preserve the original foundation of our great country! Read Wikipedia’s definition of Social Justice: Social justice - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Here are some examples:
Using equal justice, the Civil Rights Act gave all people, regardless of race, religion, gender or sexual preference equal rights to participate in the workforce having equal rights to access public resources. This allowed for the freedom of all citizens to access any public resources available without requiring government or institutions to instill mandates to comply with the law. The law was self explanatory and required no physical resources to administer it with the exception that the individual citizen would have to use his own resources to gain access to public resources such as getting to a certain school or job.
Using social justice, integration legislation required employers to hire a ratio of races, and required schools to enroll a ratio of races disregarding cost or need of the institutions. This put the burden of cost on the institutions instead of the individual in order to comply with the law. It required taxpayer money to be spent, such as in the case of school busing.

So passing a law is enough...enforcing that law is the problem?

What about programs like Social Security and Medicare?

 

[edjax1952]

Empathy has no bearing on the ability or will of a society to assist those at the lower end of it. Empathy can, in fact, be used as an excuse to patronize those at the lower end, giving them just enough to keep them alive and reasonably comfortable without a chance to elevate thier status, in return for poltical support.

The object of any support given to the lower strata of society should have the sole goal of making those people self supporting, not keeping them on the dole. This however is the exact opposite effect progressive authoritarians want, after all a self reliant voter is an unreliable voter. A voter still on the dole will keep supporting the dole controllers.

This statement alsosays it well.

 

[edjax1952]

Choke on this...

"The equal rights of man, and the happiness of every individual, are now acknowledged to be the only legitimate objects of government. Modern times have the signal advantage, too, of having discovered the only device by which these rights can be secured, to wit: government by the people, acting not in person, but by representatives chosen by themselves, that is to say, by every man of ripe years and sane mind, who contributes either by his purse or person to the support of his country." --Thomas Jefferson to A. Coray, 1823. ME 15:482

"I willingly acquiesce in the institutions of my country, perfect or imperfect, and think it a duty to leave their modifications to those who are to live under them and are to participate of the good or evil they may produce. The present generation has the same right of self-government which the past one has exercised for itself." --Thomas Jefferson to John Hampden Pleasants, 1824. ME 16:29

"What is true of every member of the society, individually, is true of them all collectively; since the rights of the whole can be no more than the sum of the rights of the individuals." --Thomas Jefferson to James Madison, 1789. ME 7:455, Papers 15:393

"To unequal privileges among members of the same society the spirit of our nation is, with one accord, adverse." --Thomas Jefferson to Hugh White, 1801. ME 10:258

"The most sacred of the duties of a government [is] to do equal and impartial justice to all its citizens." --Thomas Jefferson: Note in Destutt de Tracy, "Political Economy," 1816. ME 14:465

"The legitimate object of Government is to do for a community of people whatever they need to have done but cannot do at all, or cannot so well do, for themselves in their separate and individual capacities. But in all that people can individually do as well for themselves, Government ought not to interfere."
President Abraham Lincoln

"In all those things which deal with people, be liberal, be human. In all those things which deal with people's money, or their economy, or their form of government, be conservative."
President Dwight D. Eisenhower

In all of these rights and entitlements of legislation, nowhere does it preclude my right to the persuit of happines. I still stand strong on my ideas that the present generation is in the midst of destroying the structure that made America great. If they cannot see the result of those actions, maybe it is the responsibility of myself and people who are like minded to bring it to their attention.

Hey edjax1952, WHAT 'rights and entitlements of legislation' are destroying the structure that made America great?

I got caught up in your misleading statement. Good job on your part in swaying the topic. I did not challenge the 'rights and entitlements of legislation' I challenged the result of legislation they may pass.

In all of these rights and entitlements of legislation, nowhere does it preclude my right to the persuit of happines.

 

[Immanuel]

Fighting against poor legislation is as helpful to the poor and middle class as authoring legislation if not more important.

Immie

Wow! That line could sum up so much of modern America, it contains the 'I got mine' attitude of today, the negativity of hope, it assumes we have done enough, in its background is an attitude of mild, or maybe not so mild, social Darwinism. Immie as a religious person you surprise me. I have always wondered at the change in religion from help to defeatism. When and how did that happen?

Taming the Savage Market


The Social Welfare State, beyond Ideology: Scientific American

What is says is that stopping us from making terrible mistakes is as important as adding more legislation. No where did I say that we should not try to come up with good legislation. I believe strongly and have for many many years before Obamacare came along that we need to repair our broken healthcare system.

I simply do not believe that Obamacare did that and conservatives who fought against it were doing this country a favor.

Obamacare has made things worse for the poor and unemployed, not better.

Immie

 

[edjax1952]

Hey edjax1952, WHAT 'rights and entitlements of legislation' are destroying the structure that made America great?

American Ideas and Solutions › Log In

Here are some examples:
Using equal justice, the Civil Rights Act gave all people, regardless of race, religion, gender or sexual preference equal rights to participate in the workforce having equal rights to access public resources. This allowed for the freedom of all citizens to access any public resources available without requiring government or institutions to instill mandates to comply with the law. The law was self explanatory and required no physical resources to administer it with the exception that the individual citizen would have to use his own resources to gain access to public resources such as getting to a certain school or job.
Using social justice, integration legislation required employers to hire a ratio of races, and required schools to enroll a ratio of races disregarding cost or need of the institutions. This put the burden of cost on the institutions instead of the individual in order to comply with the law. It required taxpayer money to be spent, such as in the case of school busing.

So passing a law is enough...enforcing that law is the problem?

What about programs like Social Security and Medicare?

You can enforce laws without providing entitlements to those who may not be able to take advantage of any given situation. The problem arises when resources or priveledges are taken and reallocated by government dictate.

As for Social Security. It began as a workable solution. The problem arose when succeeding genrerations started tweeking it.

Read my blog on the History and Evolution of Social Security. It show a timetable of changes to make it into the problem it is now.

 

[freedombecki]

Bfgrn, I didn't see your response to this post.

NAME the legislation authored and passed by Republicans that have helped the poor and middle class.

The Republican Party was created in 1854 by anti-slavery activists.

The 13th amendment, which formally abolished slavery in the United States, passed the Senate on April 8, 1864, and the House on January 31, 1865. On February 1, 1865, President Abraham Lincoln​ approved the Joint Resolution of Congress submitting the proposed amendment to the state legislatures. The necessary number of states ratified it by December 6, 1865. The 13th amendment to the United States Constitution provides that "Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction."

The 14th Amendment

Text of the 14th Amendment

Section 1.
All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.
Section 2.
Representatives shall be apportioned among the several States according to their respective numbers, counting the whole number of persons in each State, excluding Indians not taxed. But when the right to vote at any election for the choice of electors for President and Vice-President of the United States, Representatives in Congress, the Executive and Judicial officers of a State, or the members of the Legislature thereof, is denied to any of the male inhabitants of such State, being twenty-one years of age,* and citizens of the United States, or in any way abridged, except for participation in rebellion, or other crime, the basis of representation therein shall be reduced in the proportion which the number of such male citizens shall bear to the whole number of male citizens twenty-one years of age in such State.
Section 3.
No person shall be a Senator or Representative in Congress, or elector of President and Vice-President, or hold any office, civil or military, under the United States, or under any State, who, having previously taken an oath, as a member of Congress, or as an officer of the United States, or as a member of any State legislature, or as an executive or judicial officer of any State, to support the Constitution of the United States, shall have engaged in insurrection or rebellion against the same, or given aid or comfort to the enemies thereof. But Congress may by a vote of two-thirds of each House, remove such disability.
Section 4.
The validity of the public debt of the United States, authorized by law, including debts incurred for payment of pensions and bounties for services in suppressing insurrection or rebellion, shall not be questioned. But neither the United States nor any State shall assume or pay any debt or obligation incurred in aid of insurrection or rebellion against the United States, or any claim for the loss or emancipation of any slave; but all such debts, obligations and claims shall be held illegal and void.
Section 5.
The Congress shall have the power to enforce, by appropriate legislation, the provisions of this article.
*Changed by section 1 of the 26th amendment.

The 15th Amendment

The 15th Amendment to the US Constitution was ratified on February 3, 1870 during Reconstruction. Along with the 13th amendment and the 14th amendment, it is one of the three Reconstruction amendments.
Text of the 15th Amendment

Section 1.
The right of citizens of the United States to vote shall not be denied or abridged by the United States or by any State on account of race, color, or previous condition of servitude.
Section. 2.
The Congress shall have power to enforce this article by appropriate legislation.

Admission of Wyoming to the Union gave Wyoming women the right to vote.
Date Admitted to the Union:

July 10, 1890 - Wyoming was the 44th state.


The 19th Amendment to the US Constitution was ratified on August 18, 1920. This amendment gave women the right to vote.

Text of the 19th Amendment

The right of citizens of the United States to vote shall not be denied or abridged by the United States or by any State on account of sex.

Congress shall have power to enforce this article by appropriate legislation.

The Civil Rights Act of 1957

Text is here.

After it was proposed to Congress by Republican President Eisenhower, Democrat Senator Strom Thurmond set the longest 1-man filibuster in history of 24 hours and 18 minutes. The bill passed the House with a vote of 270 to 97 and the Senate 60 to 15. President Eisenhower​ signed it on 9 September 1957. Senator John F Kennedy voted against the Civil Rights Act of 1957.

The Democrats in power have removed this online document from the national archives about Republican President Eisenhower's role in desegregating the Little Rock Schools in 1954. All you get is a blank page. They have also excised all information on Republican activities from Wikipedia due to their extremism which is thoroughly Disgusting:

Civil Rights: The Little Rock School Integration Crisis. On May 17, 1954 ... A Moderate Among Extremists: Dwight D. Eisenhower and the School Desegregation Crisis by James C ...
www.eisenhower.archives.gov/Research/Digital_Documents/​LittleRock/​littlerockdocuments.html


​

Reublican opponents have systematically removed all references to Republican accomplishments. They did more, I've been on this for several hours it seems, because headers leading into pages about Eisenhower omit Eisenhower's and Republicans entirely disappear when you get there on the first several pages of internet findings. The Democrats have excised Republican activities from the internet except where Republicans control the content. That is most evil in my humble opinion. They want to take credit for everything my party did, so they're doing it in extremely underhanded and diabolical, lying ways oft referred to as "errors of omission".

Sandy Berger was the first Democrat to get caught messing with the National Archives.. for those who are new to the net and don't know. He was convicted and fined $50,000 among other things.

Bfgrn, I didn't see your response to this post.

What say you?

 

[edjax1952]

Bfgrn, I didn't see your response to this post.

NAME the legislation authored and passed by Republicans that have helped the poor and middle class.

The Republican Party was created in 1854 by anti-slavery activists.

The 13th amendment, which formally abolished slavery in the United States, passed the Senate on April 8, 1864, and the House on January 31, 1865. On February 1, 1865, President Abraham Lincoln​ approved the Joint Resolution of Congress submitting the proposed amendment to the state legislatures. The necessary number of states ratified it by December 6, 1865. The 13th amendment to the United States Constitution provides that "Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction."

The 14th Amendment

Text of the 14th Amendment

Section 1.
All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.
Section 2.
Representatives shall be apportioned among the several States according to their respective numbers, counting the whole number of persons in each State, excluding Indians not taxed. But when the right to vote at any election for the choice of electors for President and Vice-President of the United States, Representatives in Congress, the Executive and Judicial officers of a State, or the members of the Legislature thereof, is denied to any of the male inhabitants of such State, being twenty-one years of age,* and citizens of the United States, or in any way abridged, except for participation in rebellion, or other crime, the basis of representation therein shall be reduced in the proportion which the number of such male citizens shall bear to the whole number of male citizens twenty-one years of age in such State.
Section 3.
No person shall be a Senator or Representative in Congress, or elector of President and Vice-President, or hold any office, civil or military, under the United States, or under any State, who, having previously taken an oath, as a member of Congress, or as an officer of the United States, or as a member of any State legislature, or as an executive or judicial officer of any State, to support the Constitution of the United States, shall have engaged in insurrection or rebellion against the same, or given aid or comfort to the enemies thereof. But Congress may by a vote of two-thirds of each House, remove such disability.
Section 4.
The validity of the public debt of the United States, authorized by law, including debts incurred for payment of pensions and bounties for services in suppressing insurrection or rebellion, shall not be questioned. But neither the United States nor any State shall assume or pay any debt or obligation incurred in aid of insurrection or rebellion against the United States, or any claim for the loss or emancipation of any slave; but all such debts, obligations and claims shall be held illegal and void.
Section 5.
The Congress shall have the power to enforce, by appropriate legislation, the provisions of this article.
*Changed by section 1 of the 26th amendment.

The 15th Amendment

The 15th Amendment to the US Constitution was ratified on February 3, 1870 during Reconstruction. Along with the 13th amendment and the 14th amendment, it is one of the three Reconstruction amendments.
Text of the 15th Amendment

Section 1.
The right of citizens of the United States to vote shall not be denied or abridged by the United States or by any State on account of race, color, or previous condition of servitude.
Section. 2.
The Congress shall have power to enforce this article by appropriate legislation.

Admission of Wyoming to the Union gave Wyoming women the right to vote.
Date Admitted to the Union:

July 10, 1890 - Wyoming was the 44th state.


The 19th Amendment to the US Constitution was ratified on August 18, 1920. This amendment gave women the right to vote.

Text of the 19th Amendment

The right of citizens of the United States to vote shall not be denied or abridged by the United States or by any State on account of sex.

Congress shall have power to enforce this article by appropriate legislation.

The Civil Rights Act of 1957

Text is here.

After it was proposed to Congress by Republican President Eisenhower, Democrat Senator Strom Thurmond set the longest 1-man filibuster in history of 24 hours and 18 minutes. The bill passed the House with a vote of 270 to 97 and the Senate 60 to 15. President Eisenhower​ signed it on 9 September 1957. Senator John F Kennedy voted against the Civil Rights Act of 1957.

The Democrats in power have removed this online document from the national archives about Republican President Eisenhower's role in desegregating the Little Rock Schools in 1954. All you get is a blank page. They have also excised all information on Republican activities from Wikipedia due to their extremism which is thoroughly Disgusting:

Civil Rights: The Little Rock School Integration Crisis. On May 17, 1954 ... A Moderate Among Extremists: Dwight D. Eisenhower and the School Desegregation Crisis by James C ...
www.eisenhower.archives.gov/Research/Digital_Documents/​LittleRock/​littlerockdocuments.html


​

Reublican opponents have systematically removed all references to Republican accomplishments. They did more, I've been on this for several hours it seems, because headers leading into pages about Eisenhower omit Eisenhower's and Republicans entirely disappear when you get there on the first several pages of internet findings. The Democrats have excised Republican activities from the internet except where Republicans control the content. That is most evil in my humble opinion. They want to take credit for everything my party did, so they're doing it in extremely underhanded and diabolical, lying ways oft referred to as "errors of omission".

Sandy Berger was the first Democrat to get caught messing with the National Archives.. for those who are new to the net and don't know. He was convicted and fined $50,000 among other things.

Bfgrn, I didn't see your response to this post.

What say you?

And some people say that 'Big Brother' is just a character in a book.

 

[Big Fitz]

Choke on this...

"The equal rights of man, and the happiness of every individual, are now acknowledged to be the only legitimate objects of government. Modern times have the signal advantage, too, of having discovered the only device by which these rights can be secured, to wit: government by the people, acting not in person, but by representatives chosen by themselves, that is to say, by every man of ripe years and sane mind, who contributes either by his purse or person to the support of his country." --Thomas Jefferson to A. Coray, 1823. ME 15:482

"I willingly acquiesce in the institutions of my country, perfect or imperfect, and think it a duty to leave their modifications to those who are to live under them and are to participate of the good or evil they may produce. The present generation has the same right of self-government which the past one has exercised for itself." --Thomas Jefferson to John Hampden Pleasants, 1824. ME 16:29

"What is true of every member of the society, individually, is true of them all collectively; since the rights of the whole can be no more than the sum of the rights of the individuals." --Thomas Jefferson to James Madison, 1789. ME 7:455, Papers 15:393

"To unequal privileges among members of the same society the spirit of our nation is, with one accord, adverse." --Thomas Jefferson to Hugh White, 1801. ME 10:258

"The most sacred of the duties of a government [is] to do equal and impartial justice to all its citizens." --Thomas Jefferson: Note in Destutt de Tracy, "Political Economy," 1816. ME 14:465

"The legitimate object of Government is to do for a community of people whatever they need to have done but cannot do at all, or cannot so well do, for themselves in their separate and individual capacities. But in all that people can individually do as well for themselves, Government ought not to interfere."
President Abraham Lincoln

"In all those things which deal with people, be liberal, be human. In all those things which deal with people's money, or their economy, or their form of government, be conservative."
President Dwight D. Eisenhower

In all of these rights and entitlements of legislation, nowhere does it preclude my right to the persuit of happines. I still stand strong on my ideas that the present generation is in the midst of destroying the structure that made America great. If they cannot see the result of those actions, maybe it is the responsibility of myself and people who are like minded to bring it to their attention.

Choke on this...

In order to choke on it I must try to swallow it first. I will not swallow it or try to. I give people the right to pass laws in a lawfull manner. But I do not have to agree with them or tolerate their ligitimacy in our culture by standing aside and remaining silent. Socialism did not work for the USSR and it will not work in America.

It's not worked anywhere, and it only has killed off 250 million people worldwide throughout history.

 

[midcan5]

It's not worked anywhere, and it only has killed off 250 million people worldwide throughout history.

Huh? Not sure what that refers to, but you and I and most posters here live in liberal democratic republics. Democracy does not war against each other, and until Bush Jr's invasion of Iraq did not cause massive unnecessary deaths. Dictators and tyrants whether they presume to be right or left or are labeled right or left are not democratic republican nor liberal.


"President Eisenhower describes his administration's political philosophy as 'dynamic conservatism,' then as 'progressive, dynamic conservatism,' then as 'progressive moderation,' then as 'moderate progressivism,' and then as 'positive progressivism.'" William Manchester

 

[Big Fitz]

It's not worked anywhere, and it only has killed off 250 million people worldwide throughout history.

Huh? Not sure what that refers to, but you and I and most posters here live in liberal democratic republics. Democracy does not war against each other, and until Bush Jr's invasion of Iraq did not cause massive unnecessary deaths. Dictators and tyrants whether they presume to be right or left or are labeled right or left are not democratic republican nor liberal.


"President Eisenhower describes his administration's political philosophy as 'dynamic conservatism,' then as 'progressive, dynamic conservatism,' then as 'progressive moderation,' then as 'moderate progressivism,' and then as 'positive progressivism.'" William Manchester

Mao and Red China starved 50 million to death before they finally realized their central planning wasn't working.

Stalin's purges and pogroms killed upwards of 18 million Jews alone.

Hitler killed over 10 million Jews (Fascism is just a type of socialism)

Pol Pot killed a few million including exterminating an entire city the size of Milwaukee of all those tainted by western capitalist culture.

And those are just the biggest on the hit parade. It doesn't even touch on those who cannot be accounted for.

That's what I'm talking about.

 

[editec]

I think, judging from the TOPIC DRIFT into the health care debate, that many of you do not really GET the difference between empathy and sympathy.

If one is capable of it, one can EMPATHIZE with people who we truly loathe.

For instance, a detective tracking down a serial killer who can EMPATAIZE with that killer is more likely to understand his next move.

The detective can GET OUT OF HIS OWN HEAD and IMAGINE the POV of the killer.

GET it NOW?

Empathy is NOT sympathy.

Empathy does not force one to be NICE to the other.

Successful sociopathic personalities are capable of EMPATHIZING the other but NOT synpathizing with the other.

EMPATHY is really one of the 7 known types of human intelligence --AKA the interpersonal intelligence.

Interpersonal intelligence is the ability to understand another POV and the interactions that occur between the empathizer and the other.

 

[Big Fitz]

I think, judging from the TOPIC DRIFT into the health care debate, that many of you do not really GET the difference between empathy and sympathy.

If one is capable of it, one can EMPATHIZE with people who we truly loathe.

For instance, a detective tracking down a serial killer who can EMPATAIZE with that killer is more likely to understand his next move.

The detective can GET OUT OF HIS OWN HEAD and IMAGINE the POV of the killer.

GET it NOW?

Empathy is NOT sympathy.

Empathy does not force one to be NICE to the other.

Successful sociopathic personalities are capable of EMPATHIZING the other but NOT synpathizing with the other.

EMPATHY is really one of the 7 known types of human intelligence --AKA the interpersonal intelligence.

Interpersonal intelligence is the ability to understand another POV and the interactions that occur between the empathizer and the other.

Empathy NOR sympathy feed the bulldog either. Practicality does.

 

[Bfgrn]

Bfgrn, I didn't see your response to this post.

NAME the legislation authored and passed by Republicans that have helped the poor and middle class.

The Republican Party was created in 1854 by anti-slavery activists.

The 13th amendment, which formally abolished slavery in the United States, passed the Senate on April 8, 1864, and the House on January 31, 1865. On February 1, 1865, President Abraham Lincoln​ approved the Joint Resolution of Congress submitting the proposed amendment to the state legislatures. The necessary number of states ratified it by December 6, 1865. The 13th amendment to the United States Constitution provides that "Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction."

The 14th Amendment

Text of the 14th Amendment

Section 1.
All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.
Section 2.
Representatives shall be apportioned among the several States according to their respective numbers, counting the whole number of persons in each State, excluding Indians not taxed. But when the right to vote at any election for the choice of electors for President and Vice-President of the United States, Representatives in Congress, the Executive and Judicial officers of a State, or the members of the Legislature thereof, is denied to any of the male inhabitants of such State, being twenty-one years of age,* and citizens of the United States, or in any way abridged, except for participation in rebellion, or other crime, the basis of representation therein shall be reduced in the proportion which the number of such male citizens shall bear to the whole number of male citizens twenty-one years of age in such State.
Section 3.
No person shall be a Senator or Representative in Congress, or elector of President and Vice-President, or hold any office, civil or military, under the United States, or under any State, who, having previously taken an oath, as a member of Congress, or as an officer of the United States, or as a member of any State legislature, or as an executive or judicial officer of any State, to support the Constitution of the United States, shall have engaged in insurrection or rebellion against the same, or given aid or comfort to the enemies thereof. But Congress may by a vote of two-thirds of each House, remove such disability.
Section 4.
The validity of the public debt of the United States, authorized by law, including debts incurred for payment of pensions and bounties for services in suppressing insurrection or rebellion, shall not be questioned. But neither the United States nor any State shall assume or pay any debt or obligation incurred in aid of insurrection or rebellion against the United States, or any claim for the loss or emancipation of any slave; but all such debts, obligations and claims shall be held illegal and void.
Section 5.
The Congress shall have the power to enforce, by appropriate legislation, the provisions of this article.
*Changed by section 1 of the 26th amendment.

The 15th Amendment

The 15th Amendment to the US Constitution was ratified on February 3, 1870 during Reconstruction. Along with the 13th amendment and the 14th amendment, it is one of the three Reconstruction amendments.
Text of the 15th Amendment

Section 1.
The right of citizens of the United States to vote shall not be denied or abridged by the United States or by any State on account of race, color, or previous condition of servitude.
Section. 2.
The Congress shall have power to enforce this article by appropriate legislation.

Admission of Wyoming to the Union gave Wyoming women the right to vote.
Date Admitted to the Union:

July 10, 1890 - Wyoming was the 44th state.


The 19th Amendment to the US Constitution was ratified on August 18, 1920. This amendment gave women the right to vote.

Text of the 19th Amendment

The right of citizens of the United States to vote shall not be denied or abridged by the United States or by any State on account of sex.

Congress shall have power to enforce this article by appropriate legislation.

The Civil Rights Act of 1957

Text is here.

After it was proposed to Congress by Republican President Eisenhower, Democrat Senator Strom Thurmond set the longest 1-man filibuster in history of 24 hours and 18 minutes. The bill passed the House with a vote of 270 to 97 and the Senate 60 to 15. President Eisenhower​ signed it on 9 September 1957. Senator John F Kennedy voted against the Civil Rights Act of 1957.

The Democrats in power have removed this online document from the national archives about Republican President Eisenhower's role in desegregating the Little Rock Schools in 1954. All you get is a blank page. They have also excised all information on Republican activities from Wikipedia due to their extremism which is thoroughly Disgusting:

Civil Rights: The Little Rock School Integration Crisis. On May 17, 1954 ... A Moderate Among Extremists: Dwight D. Eisenhower and the School Desegregation Crisis by James C ...
www.eisenhower.archives.gov/Research/Digital_Documents/​LittleRock/​littlerockdocuments.html


​

Reublican opponents have systematically removed all references to Republican accomplishments. They did more, I've been on this for several hours it seems, because headers leading into pages about Eisenhower omit Eisenhower's and Republicans entirely disappear when you get there on the first several pages of internet findings. The Democrats have excised Republican activities from the internet except where Republicans control the content. That is most evil in my humble opinion. They want to take credit for everything my party did, so they're doing it in extremely underhanded and diabolical, lying ways oft referred to as "errors of omission".

Sandy Berger was the first Democrat to get caught messing with the National Archives.. for those who are new to the net and don't know. He was convicted and fined $50,000 among other things.

Bfgrn, I didn't see your response to this post.

What say you?

Yea, in the 19th century, two principal groups stood opposed to human bondage - liberals and Christian abolitionists. Lincoln was a liberal.

HOW do you connect the 19th amendment to Republicans and/or conservatives?

Proposal and ratification
A flurry of activity began in 1910 and 1911 with surprise successes in Washington and California. Over the next few years, most western states passed legislation or voter referenda enacting full or partial suffrage for women. These successes were linked to the 1912 election, which saw the rise of the Progressive and Socialist parties, as well as the election of Democratic President Woodrow Wilson. Not until 1914 was the constitutional amendment again considered by the Senate, where it was again rejected.

On January 12, 1915, a proposal to amend the Constitution to provide for women's suffrage was brought before the House of Representatives, but was defeated by a vote of 204 to 174. Another proposal was brought before the House on January 10, 1918. During the previous evening, President Wilson made a strong and widely published appeal to the House to pass the amendment. It was passed by the required two-thirds of the House, with only one vote to spare. The vote was then carried into the Senate. Wilson again made an appeal, but on September 30, 1918, the proposal fell two votes short of passage. On February 10, 1919, it was again voted upon and failed by only one vote.

There was considerable desire among politicians of both parties to have the proposal made part of the Constitution before the 1920 general elections, so the President called a special session of the Congress so the proposal would be brought before the House again. On May 21, 1919, it passed the House, 42 votes more than necessary being obtained. On June 4, 1919, it was brought before the Senate and, after a long discussion, it was passed with 56 ayes and 25 nays. Within a few days, Illinois, Wisconsin, and Michigan ratified the amendment, their legislatures being in session. Other states followed suit at a regular pace, until the amendment had been ratified by 35 of the necessary 36 state legislatures. On August 18, 1920, Tennessee narrowly approved the Nineteenth Amendment, with 50 of 99 members of the Tennessee House of Representatives voting yes. This provided the final ratification necessary to enact the amendment.

 

[Oldstyle]

Bfgrn, I didn't see your response to this post.

The Republican Party was created in 1854 by anti-slavery activists.

The 13th amendment, which formally abolished slavery in the United States, passed the Senate on April 8, 1864, and the House on January 31, 1865. On February 1, 1865, President Abraham Lincoln​ approved the Joint Resolution of Congress submitting the proposed amendment to the state legislatures. The necessary number of states ratified it by December 6, 1865. The 13th amendment to the United States Constitution provides that "Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction."

The 14th Amendment

Text of the 14th Amendment

Section 1.
All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.
Section 2.
Representatives shall be apportioned among the several States according to their respective numbers, counting the whole number of persons in each State, excluding Indians not taxed. But when the right to vote at any election for the choice of electors for President and Vice-President of the United States, Representatives in Congress, the Executive and Judicial officers of a State, or the members of the Legislature thereof, is denied to any of the male inhabitants of such State, being twenty-one years of age,* and citizens of the United States, or in any way abridged, except for participation in rebellion, or other crime, the basis of representation therein shall be reduced in the proportion which the number of such male citizens shall bear to the whole number of male citizens twenty-one years of age in such State.
Section 3.
No person shall be a Senator or Representative in Congress, or elector of President and Vice-President, or hold any office, civil or military, under the United States, or under any State, who, having previously taken an oath, as a member of Congress, or as an officer of the United States, or as a member of any State legislature, or as an executive or judicial officer of any State, to support the Constitution of the United States, shall have engaged in insurrection or rebellion against the same, or given aid or comfort to the enemies thereof. But Congress may by a vote of two-thirds of each House, remove such disability.
Section 4.
The validity of the public debt of the United States, authorized by law, including debts incurred for payment of pensions and bounties for services in suppressing insurrection or rebellion, shall not be questioned. But neither the United States nor any State shall assume or pay any debt or obligation incurred in aid of insurrection or rebellion against the United States, or any claim for the loss or emancipation of any slave; but all such debts, obligations and claims shall be held illegal and void.
Section 5.
The Congress shall have the power to enforce, by appropriate legislation, the provisions of this article.
*Changed by section 1 of the 26th amendment.

The 15th Amendment

The 15th Amendment to the US Constitution was ratified on February 3, 1870 during Reconstruction. Along with the 13th amendment and the 14th amendment, it is one of the three Reconstruction amendments.
Text of the 15th Amendment

Section 1.
The right of citizens of the United States to vote shall not be denied or abridged by the United States or by any State on account of race, color, or previous condition of servitude.
Section. 2.
The Congress shall have power to enforce this article by appropriate legislation.

Admission of Wyoming to the Union gave Wyoming women the right to vote.
Date Admitted to the Union:

July 10, 1890 - Wyoming was the 44th state.


The 19th Amendment to the US Constitution was ratified on August 18, 1920. This amendment gave women the right to vote.

Text of the 19th Amendment

The right of citizens of the United States to vote shall not be denied or abridged by the United States or by any State on account of sex.

Congress shall have power to enforce this article by appropriate legislation.

The Civil Rights Act of 1957

Text is here.

After it was proposed to Congress by Republican President Eisenhower, Democrat Senator Strom Thurmond set the longest 1-man filibuster in history of 24 hours and 18 minutes. The bill passed the House with a vote of 270 to 97 and the Senate 60 to 15. President Eisenhower​ signed it on 9 September 1957. Senator John F Kennedy voted against the Civil Rights Act of 1957.

The Democrats in power have removed this online document from the national archives about Republican President Eisenhower's role in desegregating the Little Rock Schools in 1954. All you get is a blank page. They have also excised all information on Republican activities from Wikipedia due to their extremism which is thoroughly Disgusting:

Civil Rights: The Little Rock School Integration Crisis. On May 17, 1954 ... A Moderate Among Extremists: Dwight D. Eisenhower and the School Desegregation Crisis by James C ...
www.eisenhower.archives.gov/Research/Digital_Documents/​LittleRock/​littlerockdocuments.html


​

Reublican opponents have systematically removed all references to Republican accomplishments. They did more, I've been on this for several hours it seems, because headers leading into pages about Eisenhower omit Eisenhower's and Republicans entirely disappear when you get there on the first several pages of internet findings. The Democrats have excised Republican activities from the internet except where Republicans control the content. That is most evil in my humble opinion. They want to take credit for everything my party did, so they're doing it in extremely underhanded and diabolical, lying ways oft referred to as "errors of omission".

Sandy Berger was the first Democrat to get caught messing with the National Archives.. for those who are new to the net and don't know. He was convicted and fined $50,000 among other things.

Bfgrn, I didn't see your response to this post.

What say you?

Yea, in the 19th century, two principal groups stood opposed to human bondage - liberals and Christian abolitionists. Lincoln was a liberal.

HOW do you connect the 19th amendment to Republicans and/or conservatives?

Proposal and ratification
A flurry of activity began in 1910 and 1911 with surprise successes in Washington and California. Over the next few years, most western states passed legislation or voter referenda enacting full or partial suffrage for women. These successes were linked to the 1912 election, which saw the rise of the Progressive and Socialist parties, as well as the election of Democratic President Woodrow Wilson. Not until 1914 was the constitutional amendment again considered by the Senate, where it was again rejected.

On January 12, 1915, a proposal to amend the Constitution to provide for women's suffrage was brought before the House of Representatives, but was defeated by a vote of 204 to 174. Another proposal was brought before the House on January 10, 1918. During the previous evening, President Wilson made a strong and widely published appeal to the House to pass the amendment. It was passed by the required two-thirds of the House, with only one vote to spare. The vote was then carried into the Senate. Wilson again made an appeal, but on September 30, 1918, the proposal fell two votes short of passage. On February 10, 1919, it was again voted upon and failed by only one vote.

There was considerable desire among politicians of both parties to have the proposal made part of the Constitution before the 1920 general elections, so the President called a special session of the Congress so the proposal would be brought before the House again. On May 21, 1919, it passed the House, 42 votes more than necessary being obtained. On June 4, 1919, it was brought before the Senate and, after a long discussion, it was passed with 56 ayes and 25 nays. Within a few days, Illinois, Wisconsin, and Michigan ratified the amendment, their legislatures being in session. Other states followed suit at a regular pace, until the amendment had been ratified by 35 of the necessary 36 state legislatures. On August 18, 1920, Tennessee narrowly approved the Nineteenth Amendment, with 50 of 99 members of the Tennessee House of Representatives voting yes. This provided the final ratification necessary to enact the amendment.

I believe that Lincoln was a Republican.

 

[edjax1952]

Bfgrn, I didn't see your response to this post.


Bfgrn, I didn't see your response to this post.

What say you?

Yea, in the 19th century, two principal groups stood opposed to human bondage - liberals and Christian abolitionists. Lincoln was a liberal.

HOW do you connect the 19th amendment to Republicans and/or conservatives?

Proposal and ratification
A flurry of activity began in 1910 and 1911 with surprise successes in Washington and California. Over the next few years, most western states passed legislation or voter referenda enacting full or partial suffrage for women. These successes were linked to the 1912 election, which saw the rise of the Progressive and Socialist parties, as well as the election of Democratic President Woodrow Wilson. Not until 1914 was the constitutional amendment again considered by the Senate, where it was again rejected.

On January 12, 1915, a proposal to amend the Constitution to provide for women's suffrage was brought before the House of Representatives, but was defeated by a vote of 204 to 174. Another proposal was brought before the House on January 10, 1918. During the previous evening, President Wilson made a strong and widely published appeal to the House to pass the amendment. It was passed by the required two-thirds of the House, with only one vote to spare. The vote was then carried into the Senate. Wilson again made an appeal, but on September 30, 1918, the proposal fell two votes short of passage. On February 10, 1919, it was again voted upon and failed by only one vote.

There was considerable desire among politicians of both parties to have the proposal made part of the Constitution before the 1920 general elections, so the President called a special session of the Congress so the proposal would be brought before the House again. On May 21, 1919, it passed the House, 42 votes more than necessary being obtained. On June 4, 1919, it was brought before the Senate and, after a long discussion, it was passed with 56 ayes and 25 nays. Within a few days, Illinois, Wisconsin, and Michigan ratified the amendment, their legislatures being in session. Other states followed suit at a regular pace, until the amendment had been ratified by 35 of the necessary 36 state legislatures. On August 18, 1920, Tennessee narrowly approved the Nineteenth Amendment, with 50 of 99 members of the Tennessee House of Representatives voting yes. This provided the final ratification necessary to enact the amendment.

I believe that Lincoln was a Republican.

Abraham Lincoln - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

After deftly opposing the expansion of slavery in the United States in his campaign debates and speeches,[2] Lincoln secured the Republican nomination and was elected president in 1860.

 

[Foxfyre]

In order to choke on it I must try to swallow it first. I will not swallow it or try to. I give people the right to pass laws in a lawfull manner. But I do not have to agree with them or tolerate their ligitimacy in our culture by standing aside and remaining silent. Socialism did not work for the USSR and it will not work in America.

That is indicative of the unintended hypocrisy in these forum discussions.

First, every culture and time has its plusses and minuses, its virtues and sins, its commendable attributes and those nobody would now tolerate. But there are those who will point to the worst of those past cultures as evidence that nothing good came out of them or, worse, as evidence of the way things and people are now.

Second, some will hold up court rulings as evidence of the rightness and virtue of this or that law or policy, but ignore or shrug it off when the sins of past courts are pointed out as evidence that the courts, too, can get things wrong.

Our less enlightened brethren sanctimoniously demand that the GOP is unempatheic, unsympathetic, and opposed everything that is good and virtuous while ignoring or blowing off all the evidence to the contrary. Likewise, some others will say that nothing good ever came out of the liberal point of view which can be proved to be just as wrong.

And those of us watching this drama play out day after day wonder if it is possible to have a serious give and take discussion without accusing or blaming somebody or demanding that the discussion become another flame thread?

 

[edjax1952]

Choke on this...

"The equal rights of man, and the happiness of every individual, are now acknowledged to be the only legitimate objects of government. Modern times have the signal advantage, too, of having discovered the only device by which these rights can be secured, to wit: government by the people, acting not in person, but by representatives chosen by themselves, that is to say, by every man of ripe years and sane mind, who contributes either by his purse or person to the support of his country." --Thomas Jefferson to A. Coray, 1823. ME 15:482

"I willingly acquiesce in the institutions of my country, perfect or imperfect, and think it a duty to leave their modifications to those who are to live under them and are to participate of the good or evil they may produce. The present generation has the same right of self-government which the past one has exercised for itself." --Thomas Jefferson to John Hampden Pleasants, 1824. ME 16:29

"What is true of every member of the society, individually, is true of them all collectively; since the rights of the whole can be no more than the sum of the rights of the individuals." --Thomas Jefferson to James Madison, 1789. ME 7:455, Papers 15:393

"To unequal privileges among members of the same society the spirit of our nation is, with one accord, adverse." --Thomas Jefferson to Hugh White, 1801. ME 10:258

"The most sacred of the duties of a government [is] to do equal and impartial justice to all its citizens." --Thomas Jefferson: Note in Destutt de Tracy, "Political Economy," 1816. ME 14:465

"The legitimate object of Government is to do for a community of people whatever they need to have done but cannot do at all, or cannot so well do, for themselves in their separate and individual capacities. But in all that people can individually do as well for themselves, Government ought not to interfere."
President Abraham Lincoln

"In all those things which deal with people, be liberal, be human. In all those things which deal with people's money, or their economy, or their form of government, be conservative."
President Dwight D. Eisenhower

In all of these rights and entitlements of legislation, nowhere does it preclude my right to the persuit of happines. I still stand strong on my ideas that the present generation is in the midst of destroying the structure that made America great. If they cannot see the result of those actions, maybe it is the responsibility of myself and people who are like minded to bring it to their attention.

Choke on this...

In order to choke on it I must try to swallow it first. I will not swallow it or try to. I give people the right to pass laws in a lawfull manner. But I do not have to agree with them or tolerate their ligitimacy in our culture by standing aside and remaining silent. Socialism did not work for the USSR and it will not work in America.

That is indicative of the unintended hypocrisy in these forum discussions.

First, every culture and time has its plusses and minuses, its virtues and sins, its commendable attributes and those nobody would now tolerate. But there are those who will point to the worst of those past cultures as evidence that nothing good came out of them or, worse, as evidence of the way things and people are now.

Second, some will hold up court rulings as evidence of the rightness and virtue of this or that law or policy, but ignore or shrug it off when the sins of past courts are pointed out as evidence that the courts, too, can get things wrong.

Our less enlightened brethren sanctimoniously demand that the GOP is unempatheic, unsympathetic, and opposed everything that is good and virtuous while ignoring or blowing off all the evidence to the contrary. Likewise, some others will say that nothing good ever came out of the liberal point of view which can be proved to be just as wrong.

And those of us watching this drama play out day after day wonder if it is possible to have a serious give and take discussion without accusing or blaming somebody or demanding that the discussion become another flame thread?

You could have posted the preceding posts to give clarity to the statement.

 

[Foxfyre]

In all of these rights and entitlements of legislation, nowhere does it preclude my right to the persuit of happines. I still stand strong on my ideas that the present generation is in the midst of destroying the structure that made America great. If they cannot see the result of those actions, maybe it is the responsibility of myself and people who are like minded to bring it to their attention.

In order to choke on it I must try to swallow it first. I will not swallow it or try to. I give people the right to pass laws in a lawfull manner. But I do not have to agree with them or tolerate their ligitimacy in our culture by standing aside and remaining silent. Socialism did not work for the USSR and it will not work in America.

That is indicative of the unintended hypocrisy in these forum discussions.

First, every culture and time has its plusses and minuses, its virtues and sins, its commendable attributes and those nobody would now tolerate. But there are those who will point to the worst of those past cultures as evidence that nothing good came out of them or, worse, as evidence of the way things and people are now.

Second, some will hold up court rulings as evidence of the rightness and virtue of this or that law or policy, but ignore or shrug it off when the sins of past courts are pointed out as evidence that the courts, too, can get things wrong.

Our less enlightened brethren sanctimoniously demand that the GOP is unempatheic, unsympathetic, and opposed everything that is good and virtuous while ignoring or blowing off all the evidence to the contrary. Likewise, some others will say that nothing good ever came out of the liberal point of view which can be proved to be just as wrong.

And those of us watching this drama play out day after day wonder if it is possible to have a serious give and take discussion without accusing or blaming somebody or demanding that the discussion become another flame thread?

You could have posted the preceding posts to give clarity to the statement.

I could have, but there comes a time when long, looooooooong posts become intimidating in themselves. I usually don't read a long, wordy tedious post--though I sometimes am guilty of producing them--and I appreciate things being kept more manageable. Huge blocks of nested quotes are especially off putting to me, and I believe others.

In this case, my intent was not to distort your comment in any way, but was to comment on the one paragraph I posted. And it was in close enough proximity to the full context, I didn't think anybody would miss that there was a larger context.

I do apologize if you think this mischaracterized your intent in any way as that was not my intent.