Conservatives Start Speaking Out Against Torture

[PubliusInfinitum]

I was always under the impression that the least harsh methods of interrogation were used to gain intel and then if they didn't work, harsher methods were used. I was also under the impression that those who were exposed to harsh interrogation methods were known (or very reasonably known) to have intel that would impact the safety of Americans because that's what the CIA's job entails. Is that not right?

I would suggest that you review the articles I've placed on the "Torture Works" thread.

Why don't YOU BRING THE EVIDENCE HERE, TO THIS ARGUMENT; so as to VALIDATE YOUR CURRENT ARGUMENT WITH SOMETHING BESIDE THE IMPLICATION THAT YOU PROVIDED INCONTESTABLE EVIDENCE SOMEWHERE ELSE, thus implying your current argument rests upon that incontestable evidence.

My guess is that you, as is the habit of the proponents of the rights of terrorists, is to strip much of the information of the relevant context... But not to worry, I'm here to help ya with that...

 

[Gunny]

no, I didn't read them,, it's not about right and left with me,, everyone gets an opinion,, mine disagrees with yours.. and we live or die by what we believe I'm just not going to be grateful to you knowing that you will let me and everyone in my family die for your love of the terrorists. I can't figure it out.

God forbid your opinion should be based on facts. Let's just operate off of rabid fear and hyperbole.

The terrorists are coming! Your children are going to die in their beds unless we waterboard some towel heads!

Simplistic as it is, her opinion is correct. This IS about right and left and the mindless bots on both sides spewing rhetoric.

You claim she's using fear as a tactic, but what are YOU and the lefties using? Fear. Fear and the age-old guilt trip. One's no better than the other.

 

[editec]

Anybody trying to pass off the lie that waterboarding isn't torture is either seriously disinformed or simply condones torture.

I invite any of you to the editec compound where I will waterboard you for a few minutes.

THEN tell me it wasn't torturous.

Not a single person here trying to tell us that isn't torture will think it isn't torture ofter you go through a minute or to of the experience.

Oh yeah, one more thing?

If you waterboard people incorrectly they will die.

Why?

Because waterboarding is simply controlled drowding.

That's exactly WHY it's torture.

Because they are killing you by inches.

Horseshit

They are not killing you by inches... it's not controlled drowning... and there are indeed rules on how it is done, when it is done, how often it is done, medical personnel there, etc...

Yeah...why do you siuppose those rules about how it MUST be done exist, DD.

Because if it is according to the rules, but it done too long the person DROWNDS.

And I would invite you to actually go thru some training that many of my other fellow vets went thru that is above and beyond the 'torture' you and the rest of your kind complain about

I invite you to let me do this to you as long as I choose to..and as many times as I choose.

Then DD, you will tell me that what I was doing was TORTURE.

The difference between you experiencing this event for a few seconds, compared to being a prisoner where it is done over and over and you don't KNOW when it wil end is the difference between learning what it is and BEING TORTURED.

And because some don't accept waterboarding as torture by definition, does not mean that those people condone torture... and it certainly does not mean that they are misinformed

They and you are condoning TORTURE.

You can equivaicate all you want, sport, and most of us will continue understand what utter bullshit rationalizing nonsense you're supporting

Again, I invite you to come to my house and let me make YOU a prisoner while I waterboard you as long as I choose to and as many times as I choose.

THEN you try to tell me I didn't torture your ass. You won't, believe me.

Water boarding is TORTURE.

 

[catzmeow]

There's no logic nor common sense being applied to this argument.

I disagree. There are reams of evidence that, in spite of the CIA's claims, torture is no more effective at obtaining ACCURATE intel than other forms of interrogation. So, common sense suggests that we shouldn't be using practices that demean us, as a nation.

You know, as a member of the military, that violating military standards will get you court-martialed. Why is there no similar scrutiny of the CIA? The FBI knew enough to get the hell out of dodge and not be present with the CIA was using "questionable" tactics. this ain't rocket science.

A lot of what is now being referred to as "enhanced interrogation" is behavior that 60 years ago was prosecuted as a war crime. Hence, we ought not be using it.

 

[catzmeow]

Why don't YOU BRING THE EVIDENCE HERE, TO THIS ARGUMENT; so as to VALIDATE YOUR CURRENT ARGUMENT WITH SOMETHING BESIDE THE IMPLICATION THAT YOU PROVIDED INCONTESTABLE EVIDENCE SOMEWHERE ELSE, thus implying your current argument rests upon that incontestable evidence.

My guess is that you, as is the habit of the proponents of the rights of terrorists, is to strip much of the information of the relevant context... But not to worry, I'm here to help ya with that...

Because I see no point in burying the articles I've posted in the middle of a thread. They are there, easy to find. Feel free to read them. I've placed links to the articles so that you can read them in their entirety.

 

[catzmeow]

http://www.usmessageboard.com/politics/75259-torture-works.html

 

[catzmeow]

Simplistic as it is, her opinion is correct. This IS about right and left and the mindless bots on both sides spewing rhetoric.

You claim she's using fear as a tactic, but what are YOU and the lefties using? Fear. Fear and the age-old guilt trip. One's no better than the other.

I've provided evidence that waterboarding did not provide evidence that prevented attacks on Los Angeles, and further, that the information provided through torture was available through other means. furthermore, I've given evidence that there are MANY service personnel and personel of agencies other than the CIA, who disapproved of these interrogation tactics, believed them illegal, and were able to do the job without torture.

I think that's sufficient to counter Willow's baseless hysteria.

And, for the record, I'm not a lefty.

 

[catzmeow]

Thanks for burying the articles, Gunny. God forbid anyone should actually read them.

 

[KittenKoder]

Here's the biggest neglected fact about this argument: Those who have been put through torture have contended it does not work and has labeled all the denied methods as torture as well. Those who have not but administer it for whatever twisted pleasure they gain from it have told us that it works and tried to rationalize it as not being torture without giving us any real proof (as in hard evidence not just their word).

Sorry, but I would trust what McCain says over some prison guards with inflated egos.

 

[WillowTree]

Simplistic as it is, her opinion is correct. This IS about right and left and the mindless bots on both sides spewing rhetoric.

You claim she's using fear as a tactic, but what are YOU and the lefties using? Fear. Fear and the age-old guilt trip. One's no better than the other.

I've provided evidence that waterboarding did not provide evidence that prevented attacks on Los Angeles, and further, that the information provided through torture was available through other means. furthermore, I've given evidence that there are MANY service personnel and personel of agencies other than the CIA, who disapproved of these interrogation tactics, believed them illegal, and were able to do the job without torture.

I think that's sufficient to counter Willow's baseless hysteria.

And, for the record, I'm not a lefty.

what are the other means?

 

[DiamondDave]

Anybody trying to pass off the lie that waterboarding isn't torture is either seriously disinformed or simply condones torture.

I invite any of you to the editec compound where I will waterboard you for a few minutes.

THEN tell me it wasn't torturous.

Not a single person here trying to tell us that isn't torture will think it isn't torture ofter you go through a minute or to of the experience.

Oh yeah, one more thing?

If you waterboard people incorrectly they will die.

Why?

Because waterboarding is simply controlled drowding.

That's exactly WHY it's torture.

Because they are killing you by inches.

Yeah...why do you siuppose those rules about how it MUST be done exist, DD.

Because if it is according to the rules, but it done too long the person DROWNDS.




I invite you to let me do this to you as long as I choose to..and as many times as I choose.

Then DD, you will tell me that what I was doing was TORTURE.

The difference between you experiencing this event for a few seconds, compared to being a prisoner where it is done over and over and you don't KNOW when it wil end is the difference between learning what it is and BEING TORTURED.

And because some don't accept waterboarding as torture by definition, does not mean that those people condone torture... and it certainly does not mean that they are misinformed

They and you are condoning TORTURE.

You can equivaicate all you want, sport, and most of us will continue understand what utter bullshit rationalizing nonsense you're supporting

Again, I invite you to come to my house and let me make YOU a prisoner while I waterboard you as long as I choose to and as many times as I choose.

THEN you try to tell me I didn't torture your ass. You won't, believe me.

Water boarding is TORTURE.

Bullshit edit

try reading the rules of how many minutes in a session, or a day.. how many seconds at a time

Now yes.. if you are dumping water over someone's face or holding their head submerged for minutes at a time, you can drown... you are NOT going to drown for a maximum of 40 seconds of water running over a cloth over your face while on a 15 degree downslope

You see.. as a prisoner with info, we do not want the person dead.. hence we do not use a tactic that would really cause death

I suggest that if you went thru some of the things were went thru in training... you may proclaim that you went thru "torture" as well... but just because you say it, don't make it so

Waterboarding, by definition, is not torture... it is a very harsh interrogation technique.... do I argue or blame you for being against it? Nope.. do I think it is not a motherfucking scary experience to go thru? Nope... would I argue for you wanting for the practice to not be used?? Nope... Do I think it is something that should be used in every case? Nope... Do I think it's use does not need extreme oversight? Nope... I will continue to argue though that it is not torture, by definition. And I will continue to support it's use until such time that it is officially taken out of the book for our use... And I do not condone calling it something that it is not, and I do not condone the labeling of officials who have been in charge during it's use 'torturers' or 'war criminals'

 

[Gunny]

Anyone that says torture DOESN'T work is lying or stupid. Anyone that says it works 100% of the time is lying or stupid.

Anyone who defines "torture" outside the conventional defnitions historically used is a liar AND stupid.

Anyone who deludes themselves into thinking that we have not engaged in torture within our own nation as well as with enemies of outside this nation during times of war is delusional.

And this faux-outrage is getting old. What do you expect from a Nation of people that kicks the basis of our moral standard -- Judeo-Christianity -- to the curb?

Torture "works" in that the person you are torturing will tell you anything at all to get you to stop. It doesn't work in that the information you are receiving is as likely to be inaccurate as accurate. The more under duress a suspect is, the less likely his information is to be accurate.

Furthermore, LEGAL interview and interrogation "works" as well or better than terror. So why violate our own laws and ethics?

I don't care if my outrage is old to you. I defended the people at Abu Ghraib, and said that they were being villified by the left for no reason. Then, I came to believe that they were operating outside of the scope of normal orders.

Now, we learn that they were probably following orders at all times, and that those tactics were supported at the highest levels of our country, in violation of law and our ethics.

I sure as hell am outraged. Why aren't you?

I did not comment on the accuracy of the information. I said it works. I disagree you are as likely to get bad info as wrong. Torture works on the basic human animal and I'd say most are neither intelligent enough, nor strong enough psychologically to withstand REAL torture. And I'm not talking about makign someone think they are drowning.

Guess you got Abu Ghraib wrong then. I said they were wrong from the beginning. That was a no-brainer. However, I didin't consider college-prank-level hazing torture then, nor do I now.

You mean you assume they were following orders? You otherwise haven't learned shit.

Why should I be outraged? I haven't been fooled by the moral superiority complex in 30 years.

If you're just now coming to grips with the fact we can be as self-serving, greedy, and ruthless as anyone else, took you long enough. We built this nation you have such blind faith in on stealing land from others by whatever means necessary. Yet you expect better?

 

[sealybobo]

http://www.usmessageboard.com/politics/75259-torture-works.html

Breaking into homes makes me rich. Is that ok too now?

Knocking old ladies out and stealing their diamond wedding rings works too. Is that cool with you?

Shoplifting is the best way to get things cheap in a free economy.

There are a lot of suspected criminals out there in America. We just don't have enough evidence to put them away. You know what works? Locking them up indefinately without charge. If you lock up 1000 suspects and if even one of them is guilty and it saves one American life, isn't it worth it?

 

[catzmeow]

"Torture Works" articles...


http://www.usmessageboard.com/polit...aking-out-against-torture-13.html#post1186527

http://www.usmessageboard.com/polit...aking-out-against-torture-13.html#post1186518

http://www.usmessageboard.com/polit...aking-out-against-torture-14.html#post1186570

 

[catzmeow]

what are the other means?

‘We Could Have Done This the Right Way’ | Print Article | Newsweek.com

 

[Iriemon]

http://www.usmessageboard.com/politics/75259-torture-works.html

What happened to that thread? That was an important one.

 

[KittenKoder]

Simplistic as it is, her opinion is correct. This IS about right and left and the mindless bots on both sides spewing rhetoric.

You claim she's using fear as a tactic, but what are YOU and the lefties using? Fear. Fear and the age-old guilt trip. One's no better than the other.

I've provided evidence that waterboarding did not provide evidence that prevented attacks on Los Angeles, and further, that the information provided through torture was available through other means. furthermore, I've given evidence that there are MANY service personnel and personel of agencies other than the CIA, who disapproved of these interrogation tactics, believed them illegal, and were able to do the job without torture.

I think that's sufficient to counter Willow's baseless hysteria.

And, for the record, I'm not a lefty.

what are the other means?

Ever notice, they never tell you ... the people who like torture for some reason never show you exactly how they really got the info, they just tell you and hope you don't pry. It's because there are "black-ops", as the common phrase goes. Thing is, they really can't tell you or they risk losing their vantage point, but really wouldn't you rather be told that instead of fed a lie? It's not torture that got the info most likely, they just used it as a cover in hopes people wouldn't ask too many other questions. The security of such actions is important, but to outright lie about it to us isn't.

 

[Gunny]

More fauz outrage. Got anything more to your argument than an appeal to emotion?

I've posted solid evidence in this thread of every claim I've made, along with links to credible mainstream publications. Guess you didn't bother to read them.

And suddenly the media is YOUR friend? GMAFB. You're the one acting as if this is some kind of revelation. At what base level do you think? Perhaps you should believe with such blind faith in US government propaganda that teaches you we're the friggin' Boy Scouts of Nations.

 

[sealybobo]

Anyone that says torture DOESN'T work is lying or stupid. Anyone that says it works 100% of the time is lying or stupid.

Anyone who defines "torture" outside the conventional defnitions historically used is a liar AND stupid.

Anyone who deludes themselves into thinking that we have not engaged in torture within our own nation as well as with enemies of outside this nation during times of war is delusional.

And this faux-outrage is getting old. What do you expect from a Nation of people that kicks the basis of our moral standard -- Judeo-Christianity -- to the curb?

Torture "works" in that the person you are torturing will tell you anything at all to get you to stop. It doesn't work in that the information you are receiving is as likely to be inaccurate as accurate. The more under duress a suspect is, the less likely his information is to be accurate.

Furthermore, LEGAL interview and interrogation "works" as well or better than terror. So why violate our own laws and ethics?

I don't care if my outrage is old to you. I defended the people at Abu Ghraib, and said that they were being villified by the left for no reason. Then, I came to believe that they were operating outside of the scope of normal orders.

Now, we learn that they were probably following orders at all times, and that those tactics were supported at the highest levels of our country, in violation of law and our ethics.

I sure as hell am outraged. Why aren't you?

I did not comment on the accuracy of the information. I said it works. I disagree you are as likely to get bad info as wrong. Torture works on the basic human animal and I'd say most are neither intelligent enough, nor strong enough psychologically to withstand REAL torture. And I'm not talking about makign someone think they are drowning.

Guess you got Abu Ghraib wrong then. I said they were wrong from the beginning. That was a no-brainer. However, I didin't consider college-prank-level hazing torture then, nor do I now.

You mean you assume they were following orders? You otherwise haven't learned shit.

Why should I be outraged? I haven't been fooled by the moral superiority complex in 30 years.

If you're just now coming to grips with the fact we can be as self-serving, greedy, and ruthless as anyone else, took you long enough. We built this nation you have such blind faith in on stealing land from others by whatever means necessary. Yet you expect better?

I agree. That's why I'm going to become a criminal. It is the way the rich got rich. Stealing from others.

But I am going to do it better than Bush, because I WON'T GET CAUGHT.

 

[catzmeow]

If you're just now coming to grips with the fact we can be as self-serving, greedy, and ruthless as anyone else, took you long enough. We built this nation you have such blind faith in on stealing land from others by whatever means necessary. Yet you expect better?

Yeah, Gunny, I do expect better. I expect us, at this point in our nation's history, to start following our own damn laws. I don't consider myself naive. But, it's my job to help enforce the rule of law. That's what keeps the white white and the black black. The rule of law is not a gray area when we are talking about the role of democratically elected leaders.

I acknowledge it might get a little murky in the trenches, but when were the politicos in DC ever in the trenches, aside from McCain and Murtha?