Creationists

[Youwerecreated]

Well, how about mankind is neither good nor evil by nature? That we are fairly neutral, and can go either way based on a combination of choices, genetics and upbringing/environment?

Come on monty, look at the atrocities of man sometimes by an order from a man.

Look at the altruism of man. The point is that both sides of the coin are represented. Some are and do evil, some are and do good. Most of us, I think, are toward the middle. We are good at times, evil at times, but not often to extremes either way.

There's always the question of just what constitutes good and evil, of course, but that's a whole other discussion.

According to whose morals you are following. We think evil things all the time by nature. Our mind can be our worst enemy at times.

 

[Youwerecreated]

yes some do..lions will kill for sport . domestic cats will spend hours torturing their catch.
dogs mount each other to assert sexual dominance.
most all animals will fight over territory or food (including humans)
dolphins bully and kill un desirable pod members.
our closest relatives murder, rape ant abuse their young and each other (just like us).
the logical conclusion if you believe in god is he put evil in all of his creations.
why?

may be he likes to watch?

Wow how moronic,you can read a dogs's mind what is he doing when your dog does it to your leg ?

Are you saying that without telepathy we cannot determine the reason for another creature's actions? I'll grant you that there's always the possibility of being wrong, but I also think it can be more than wild guesswork.

Key here is the assumption can be wrong. I still want to know what a dog is doing when he humps Daws leg

 

[UltimateReality]

Here's a proof for you believers. It's a spin off of Kalam's Cosmological Argument, but one that actually makes sense.

1.Everything that exists has a cause.
2. God has no cause.
3. God does not exist.

This is fallacy that doesn't take into account two very important things:

God has always existed.

God exists outside of matter, space, time, and energy.

Before you get your panties in a wad, Einstein missed the evidence pointing to the big bang because he believed in an eternal universe. Einstein believed the universe had always existed and had no beginning. So the concept that something has no beginning is not foreign to science.

so Einstein was wrong.
you are also wrong because you cannot prove 1. god exists 2. without that proof the rest is a steaming pile of shitty assumptions.
it's another declaratory statement with no basis in fact..

Daws, I guess reading comprehension isn't your strong suite either. This argument that the atheist bastardized is from the 13th century and was a logical argument FOR the existence of God by Thomas Aquinos. Nice try though, jumping on the NP bandwagon.

The only steaming pile here is the rotting McDonalds wrappers laying around your computer.

 

[UltimateReality]

What are you doing to help the hurting and the poor? What personal sacrifices are you making for another human or humans?

By the way Daws, Hollie and NP, this wasn't a rhetorical question.

 

[newpolitics]

What are you doing to help the hurting and the poor? What personal sacrifices are you making for another human or humans?

By the way Daws, Hollie and NP, this wasn't a rhetorical question.

I donate to two charities monthly, one for child prostitution and one for children international. I'm an ethical vegan in order boycott factory farms, where the most egregious and completely accepted form a slavery still currently exists (watch Earthlings at Earthlings.com | A Film by Nation Earth). I volunteer at an animal shelter weekly in NYC. I volunteered two weeks in New Orleans to help rebuild houses in the Ninth Ward, and worked an entire service year in Boston to help underprivileged youth after I got out of high school. What do you do?

 

[Montrovant]

Based on your statements. The inference is that God wrote the Old Testament about himself. Any third party observer can see that glaring theme in your argument. God didn't write it. Man did. God inspired scripture. You are also claiming that man's understanding of God in the Old Testament is God's understanding of God.

So you're saying the bible isn't indicative of God's moral code? That all of the slavery, rape and murder wasn't what god 'meant'? Then why do you take it as such? You can't pick and choose the parts of the bible you want to be true, but that is what you have to do with a book as morally spotted as the bible. Then you claim that it was merely divinely inspired and not actually authored directly, but this doesn't get you away from whether the book is the inspired word of god, and therefore whether the moral code is that of God's. Either it is or it isn't. It doesn't matter who wrote it or how. The bible contains its own moral inconsistencies.

Honestly, I have some problems reconciling some of the stories in the Old Testament. But this is not Christianity. It is pathetic how the angry atheists, the ones that once believed but now have a mission to destroy Christianity, always quote the Old Testament. How about the teachings of the New Testament: Love your enemies, turn the other cheek, take care of the poor, do not lie, do not engage in sexual immorality, love one another. What about the B attitudes? The Good Samaritan? Paul's conversion?

Last time I checked, I know of no Christians advocating Genocide so these arguments are just SO STUPID. In fact, Christians advocate just the opposite. They are active all over the world helping feed and minister to the poor. They are active here in our country defending the Genocide on the unborn. Atheists argue this same pathetic argument all the time, but the actions of Christians speak louder than atheist rhetoric. The statistics are there to show that Christians are more charitable than atheists. And why would that shock us? Atheists are about themselves. They are their own reality. My church just today raised $50,000 to feed Lepers in India through Harvest India. Yes, you heard me right, there are still Leper colonies in India.

Harvest India

Leprosy Project

Our church has also funded a dormitory for 150 orphans in Kenya on which construction was just completed. That country has been ravaged by AIDS and left millions of children without parents.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=haMLTjLh-rA&feature=player_embedded]Huruma Children's Home - Ngong 2012 Documentary - YouTube[/ame]

Our Videos

This doesn't even scratch the surface of the ministries our little Church in Arizona is involved in.

You come here all angry to set us straight and tell me how much bad Christianity has done in the world. But this is a skewed worldview, not at all an accurate portrayal of modern day Christians. It is seethed with anger and hate and discrimination against Christians. It is about a once strong society founded on Christian principles turning on the very pillars of that foundation and rejecting God. The national debt is spiraling out of control and government bankruptcy is inevitable. Jesus is removing the lampstand from America, and very hard times are coming.

What are you doing to help the hurting and the poor? What personal sacrifices are you making for another human or humans?

Considering a very large percentage of the population identifies as Christian, I'm not sure how the country is rejecting god or Christian principles. I've seen multiple polls putting the Christian population of the US at 75-80%. Yet more believe in god in some other tradition or without a particular religious affiliation. Are the atheists (who, in the same polls, make up less than 2% of the population) the only ones with any power or influence? Or is this another case of someone looking at all the Christians in the country and deciding they are not REAL Christians?

And of course, whether Christians in the modern world are good, charitable people has nothing at all to do with whether there are inconsistencies or questionable morality in the bible. The fact that the great evils done in the name of the Christian god are mostly in the past also does not influence the contents of scripture.

I'm not defending newpolitics' views, just highlighting that pointing to Christian charity in no way answers questions about moral dilemmas in the bible.

 

[Hollie]

I let you figure that one out.

I'm not surprised at your answer. The timeframes described for earth history and for the age of the universe (which those evil scientists have factual data to support) , make your gods and all gods superfluous. While creationists / I'D'ers (one and the same), will reel and deny the fact of "evilution", there is no credible argument to deny the science fact. What we have is credible data to support the theory of fitness for survival and adaptation over time. Immense time scales only add to support the theory.

Even if one or more gods (and all the asserted gods share the same credibility as your gods) provided the first spark of life, an absent, uninvolved and disinterested god(s) is/are synonymous with "nonexistence". What slather nonexistence with a host of human attributes ?

There is also factual data that presents problems for the theory.

That makes no sense at all. There is simply no evidence for supernatural "creation". All of the natural world that we understand adheres to completely natural phenomenon. If you have evidence for something in the natural world that is not natural, ie: supernatural, please let us know what that is.

I think this is the greatest problem with those who reject science and knowledge and instead rely on faith and supernaturalism. Faith is the process of making claims and holding opinions in the absence of knowledge. If something is known and/or understood, then we have knowledge and faith is not required.

To claim that something is unknowable or unfathomable creates an environment wherein you decide to forever remain ignorant of the natural world you live in. You have chosen not to learn and discover and thus you do not pursue knowledge. You are defining that faith must be maintained because:

knowledge would supersede faith, questioning religious dogma is often defined as losing one’s faith,

 

[Youwerecreated]

So you're saying the bible isn't indicative of God's moral code? That all of the slavery, rape and murder wasn't what god 'meant'? Then why do you take it as such? You can't pick and choose the parts of the bible you want to be true, but that is what you have to do with a book as morally spotted as the bible. Then you claim that it was merely divinely inspired and not actually authored directly, but this doesn't get you away from whether the book is the inspired word of god, and therefore whether the moral code is that of God's. Either it is or it isn't. It doesn't matter who wrote it or how. The bible contains its own moral inconsistencies.

Honestly, I have some problems reconciling some of the stories in the Old Testament. But this is not Christianity. It is pathetic how the angry atheists, the ones that once believed but now have a mission to destroy Christianity, always quote the Old Testament. How about the teachings of the New Testament: Love your enemies, turn the other cheek, take care of the poor, do not lie, do not engage in sexual immorality, love one another. What about the B attitudes? The Good Samaritan? Paul's conversion?

Last time I checked, I know of no Christians advocating Genocide so these arguments are just SO STUPID. In fact, Christians advocate just the opposite. They are active all over the world helping feed and minister to the poor. They are active here in our country defending the Genocide on the unborn. Atheists argue this same pathetic argument all the time, but the actions of Christians speak louder than atheist rhetoric. The statistics are there to show that Christians are more charitable than atheists. And why would that shock us? Atheists are about themselves. They are their own reality. My church just today raised $50,000 to feed Lepers in India through Harvest India. Yes, you heard me right, there are still Leper colonies in India.

Harvest India

Leprosy Project

Our church has also funded a dormitory for 150 orphans in Kenya on which construction was just completed. That country has been ravaged by AIDS and left millions of children without parents.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=haMLTjLh-rA&feature=player_embedded]Huruma Children's Home - Ngong 2012 Documentary - YouTube[/ame]

Our Videos

This doesn't even scratch the surface of the ministries our little Church in Arizona is involved in.

You come here all angry to set us straight and tell me how much bad Christianity has done in the world. But this is a skewed worldview, not at all an accurate portrayal of modern day Christians. It is seethed with anger and hate and discrimination against Christians. It is about a once strong society founded on Christian principles turning on the very pillars of that foundation and rejecting God. The national debt is spiraling out of control and government bankruptcy is inevitable. Jesus is removing the lampstand from America, and very hard times are coming.

What are you doing to help the hurting and the poor? What personal sacrifices are you making for another human or humans?

Considering a very large percentage of the population identifies as Christian, I'm not sure how the country is rejecting god or Christian principles. I've seen multiple polls putting the Christian population of the US at 75-80%. Yet more believe in god in some other tradition or without a particular religious affiliation. Are the atheists (who, in the same polls, make up less than 2% of the population) the only ones with any power or influence? Or is this another case of someone looking at all the Christians in the country and deciding they are not REAL Christians?

And of course, whether Christians in the modern world are good, charitable people has nothing at all to do with whether there are inconsistencies or questionable morality in the bible. The fact that the great evils done in the name of the Christian god are mostly in the past also does not influence the contents of scripture.

I'm not defending newpolitics' views, just highlighting that pointing to Christian charity in no way answers questions about moral dilemmas in the bible.

It's pretty simple really,a large amount of the educated bought in to what they were taught in school even though some claim to be Christian. God does not come first to them no matter what they say.

 

[Youwerecreated]

I'm not surprised at your answer. The timeframes described for earth history and for the age of the universe (which those evil scientists have factual data to support) , make your gods and all gods superfluous. While creationists / I'D'ers (one and the same), will reel and deny the fact of "evilution", there is no credible argument to deny the science fact. What we have is credible data to support the theory of fitness for survival and adaptation over time. Immense time scales only add to support the theory.

Even if one or more gods (and all the asserted gods share the same credibility as your gods) provided the first spark of life, an absent, uninvolved and disinterested god(s) is/are synonymous with "nonexistence". What slather nonexistence with a host of human attributes ?

There is also factual data that presents problems for the theory.

That makes no sense at all. There is simply no evidence for supernatural "creation". All of the natural world that we understand adheres to completely natural phenomenon. If you have evidence for something in the natural world that is not natural, ie: supernatural, please let us know what that is.

I think this is the greatest problem with those who reject science and knowledge and instead rely on faith and supernaturalism. Faith is the process of making claims and holding opinions in the absence of knowledge. If something is known and/or understood, then we have knowledge and faith is not required.

To claim that something is unknowable or unfathomable creates an environment wherein you decide to forever remain ignorant of the natural world you live in. You have chosen not to learn and discover and thus you do not pursue knowledge. You are defining that faith must be maintained because:

knowledge would supersede faith, questioning religious dogma is often defined as losing one’s faith,

I might have misunderstood your point that is true that alot of kids in college are buying in to naturalism because that is what they are being taught. Please stop saying believers reject science,we reject ideological s cience or in another term pseudoscience.

 

[Hollie]

There is also factual data that presents problems for the theory.

That makes no sense at all. There is simply no evidence for supernatural "creation". All of the natural world that we understand adheres to completely natural phenomenon. If you have evidence for something in the natural world that is not natural, ie: supernatural, please let us know what that is.

I think this is the greatest problem with those who reject science and knowledge and instead rely on faith and supernaturalism. Faith is the process of making claims and holding opinions in the absence of knowledge. If something is known and/or understood, then we have knowledge and faith is not required.

To claim that something is unknowable or unfathomable creates an environment wherein you decide to forever remain ignorant of the natural world you live in. You have chosen not to learn and discover and thus you do not pursue knowledge. You are defining that faith must be maintained because:

knowledge would supersede faith, questioning religious dogma is often defined as losing one’s faith,

I might have misunderstood your point that is true that alot of kids in college are buying in to naturalism because that is what they are being taught. Please stop saying believers reject science,we reject ideological s cience or in another term pseudoscience.

So then, do tell us what evidence you have for supernatural creationism. It's a question you refuse to answer. I know precisely why that is, but if you have such evidence, let's put it before peer review. This is how science is challenged to substantiate claims. I don't know of any means or methods whereby science can substantiate you claims of gods, demons or other oddities that go bump in the night. Hating science because it illuminates those dark, superstitious areas of the mind is not a detriment to humanity. Embracing fear and superstition, is.

 

[Montrovant]

Considering a very large percentage of the population identifies as Christian, I'm not sure how the country is rejecting god or Christian principles. I've seen multiple polls putting the Christian population of the US at 75-80%. Yet more believe in god in some other tradition or without a particular religious affiliation. Are the atheists (who, in the same polls, make up less than 2% of the population) the only ones with any power or influence? Or is this another case of someone looking at all the Christians in the country and deciding they are not REAL Christians?

And of course, whether Christians in the modern world are good, charitable people has nothing at all to do with whether there are inconsistencies or questionable morality in the bible. The fact that the great evils done in the name of the Christian god are mostly in the past also does not influence the contents of scripture.

I'm not defending newpolitics' views, just highlighting that pointing to Christian charity in no way answers questions about moral dilemmas in the bible.

It's pretty simple really,a large amount of the educated bought in to what they were taught in school even though some claim to be Christian. God does not come first to them no matter what they say.

Here's one vote for 'they aren't real Christians'.

So much easier to dismiss the beliefs of others, isn't it?

 

[Youwerecreated]

That makes no sense at all. There is simply no evidence for supernatural "creation". All of the natural world that we understand adheres to completely natural phenomenon. If you have evidence for something in the natural world that is not natural, ie: supernatural, please let us know what that is.

I think this is the greatest problem with those who reject science and knowledge and instead rely on faith and supernaturalism. Faith is the process of making claims and holding opinions in the absence of knowledge. If something is known and/or understood, then we have knowledge and faith is not required.

To claim that something is unknowable or unfathomable creates an environment wherein you decide to forever remain ignorant of the natural world you live in. You have chosen not to learn and discover and thus you do not pursue knowledge. You are defining that faith must be maintained because:

knowledge would supersede faith, questioning religious dogma is often defined as losing one’s faith,

I might have misunderstood your point that is true that alot of kids in college are buying in to naturalism because that is what they are being taught. Please stop saying believers reject science,we reject ideological s cience or in another term pseudoscience.

So then, do tell us what evidence you have for supernatural creationism. It's a question you refuse to answer. I know precisely why that is, but if you have such evidence, let's put it before peer review. This is how science is challenged to substantiate claims. I don't know of any means or methods whereby science can substantiate you claims of gods, demons or other oddities that go bump in the night. Hating science because it illuminates those dark, superstitious areas of the mind is not a detriment to humanity. Embracing fear and superstition, is.

Part faith and part complexity. I don't believe chaos can create order. A cell forms through order not chaos.

 

[Youwerecreated]

Considering a very large percentage of the population identifies as Christian, I'm not sure how the country is rejecting god or Christian principles. I've seen multiple polls putting the Christian population of the US at 75-80%. Yet more believe in god in some other tradition or without a particular religious affiliation. Are the atheists (who, in the same polls, make up less than 2% of the population) the only ones with any power or influence? Or is this another case of someone looking at all the Christians in the country and deciding they are not REAL Christians?

And of course, whether Christians in the modern world are good, charitable people has nothing at all to do with whether there are inconsistencies or questionable morality in the bible. The fact that the great evils done in the name of the Christian god are mostly in the past also does not influence the contents of scripture.

I'm not defending newpolitics' views, just highlighting that pointing to Christian charity in no way answers questions about moral dilemmas in the bible.

It's pretty simple really,a large amount of the educated bought in to what they were taught in school even though some claim to be Christian. God does not come first to them no matter what they say.

Here's one vote for 'they aren't real Christians'.

So much easier to dismiss the beliefs of others, isn't it?

Not really it's not me it's the bible that declares it.

Heb 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him.

Mat 6:33 But seek first the kingdom of God and His righteousness; and all these things shall be added to you.

 

[UltimateReality]

That makes no sense at all. There is simply no evidence for supernatural "creation". All of the natural world that we understand adheres to completely natural phenomenon. If you have evidence for something in the natural world that is not natural, ie: supernatural, please let us know what that is.

I think this is the greatest problem with those who reject science and knowledge and instead rely on faith and supernaturalism. Faith is the process of making claims and holding opinions in the absence of knowledge. If something is known and/or understood, then we have knowledge and faith is not required.

To claim that something is unknowable or unfathomable creates an environment wherein you decide to forever remain ignorant of the natural world you live in. You have chosen not to learn and discover and thus you do not pursue knowledge. You are defining that faith must be maintained because:

knowledge would supersede faith, questioning religious dogma is often defined as losing one’s faith,

I might have misunderstood your point that is true that alot of kids in college are buying in to naturalism because that is what they are being taught. Please stop saying believers reject science,we reject ideological s cience or in another term pseudoscience.

So then, do tell us what evidence you have for supernatural creationism. It's a question you refuse to answer. I know precisely why that is, but if you have such evidence, let's put it before peer review. This is how science is challenged to substantiate claims. I don't know of any means or methods whereby science can substantiate you claims of gods, demons or other oddities that go bump in the night. Hating science because it illuminates those dark, superstitious areas of the mind is not a detriment to humanity. Embracing fear and superstition, is.

Hollie, you continue to ignore numerous posts and fail to comment on them. I listed 50 peer reviewed studies and a link to a scientific argument for ID based on Darwins and Lyell's scientific method. Serious evidence has been presented to you but you keep stating the same incorrect thing over an Dover again. Just because you are ignoring something, doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

 

[Montrovant]

It's pretty simple really,a large amount of the educated bought in to what they were taught in school even though some claim to be Christian. God does not come first to them no matter what they say.

I find it odd that you claim someone needs to be telepathic to ascribe reasons to animal behavior, but you feel qualified to know the beliefs of humans in contradiction to what they say.

Is your name Xavier?*

*geek reference!

 

[UltimateReality]

It's pretty simple really,a large amount of the educated bought in to what they were taught in school even though some claim to be Christian. God does not come first to them no matter what they say.

Here's one vote for 'they aren't real Christians'.

So much easier to dismiss the beliefs of others, isn't it?

Not really it's not me it's the bible that declares it.

Heb 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him.

Mat 6:33 But seek first the kingdom of God and His righteousness; and all these things shall be added to you.

John 14:15 If you love me, you will keep my commandments.

James 2:18 (NIV) But someone will say, “You have faith; I have deeds.” Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by my deeds.

 

[UltimateReality]

It's pretty simple really,a large amount of the educated bought in to what they were taught in school even though some claim to be Christian. God does not come first to them no matter what they say.

I find it odd that you claim someone needs to be telepathic to ascribe reasons to animal behavior, but you feel qualified to know the beliefs of humans in contradiction to what they say.

Is your name Xavier?*

*geek reference!

No telepathy needed. My wife is constantly harping on peoples words and actions. Which do you think speaks louder?

That is not to say that Christians don't fail miserably. We are constantly trying to shed our sinful nature. But we should be "running the race". When you fall, you don't stay down. You get back up and keep on trying, striving to be more like Christ.

 

[UltimateReality]

Here is a morden day parable (story that has a deeper, metaphorical meaning) that captures Christianity perfectly. It comes from an unlikely source, ESPN. Christ died so that we may live. If you really understand the breadth of what Christ did on the cross, if forces a change in the way you live...

Ray of Hope: Jason Ray - ESPN Video - ESPN

 

[Youwerecreated]

Here is a morden day parable (story that has a deeper, metaphorical meaning) that captures Christianity perfectly. It comes from an unlikely source, ESPN. Christ died so that we may live. If you really understand the breadth of what Christ did on the cross, if forces a change in the way you live...

Ray of Hope: Jason Ray - ESPN Video - ESPN

My wife and I just watched the video,this put a lump in my throat and my wife had tears in her eyes.

 

[newpolitics]

Here is a morden day parable (story that has a deeper, metaphorical meaning) that captures Christianity perfectly. It comes from an unlikely source, ESPN. Christ died so that we may live. If you really understand the breadth of what Christ did on the cross, if forces a change in the way you live...

Ray of Hope: Jason Ray - ESPN Video - ESPN

My wife and I just watched the video,this put a lump in my throat and my wife had tears in her eyes.

what does this 'parable' have anything to do with other than modern science? Nothing. I won't deny that its a touching story, and shared between you two christians, it may give you a special feeling, but as far as reality goes, this does nothing to demonstrate anything other than the fact that we are emotional beings terrified of death.

FYI, I'm an organ donor, and an atheist. I don't see why that ever should not be the case. Everyone should be an organ donor. There is no reason not to. It doesn't matter. You're fucking dead.