Creationists

Status
Not open for further replies.
Here is a morden day parable (story that has a deeper, metaphorical meaning) that captures Christianity perfectly. It comes from an unlikely source, ESPN. Christ died so that we may live. If you really understand the breadth of what Christ did on the cross, if forces a change in the way you live...

Ray of Hope: Jason Ray - ESPN Video - ESPN

My wife and I just watched the video,this put a lump in my throat and my wife had tears in her eyes.

what does this 'parable' have anything to do with other than modern science? Nothing.

Did you read the definition of parable? The story is very similar to the story of Christ. Jason Ray died so that others could live. His sacrifice gave the recipients a fresh start just as Christ's sacrifice give those who accept him new life. Many Christians can start to take what Christ did for granted. Did you notice that most of the organ recipients said there was not a day that went by that they didn't think about Jason and what he had done for them? Did you notice the heart recipient say Jason heart lives on in me? How much more amazing that God humbled himself to become a man and made the choice to die for us?

Galatians 2:20 (NIV) I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. The life I now live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me.

1 John 3:16 This is how we know what love is: Jesus Christ laid down his life for us. And we ought to lay down our lives for our brothers and sisters. 17 If anyone has material possessions and sees a brother or sister in need but has no pity on them, how can the love of God be in that person? 18 Dear children, let us not love with words or speech but with actions and in truth.
 
Last edited:
Here is a morden day parable (story that has a deeper, metaphorical meaning) that captures Christianity perfectly. It comes from an unlikely source, ESPN. Christ died so that we may live. If you really understand the breadth of what Christ did on the cross, if forces a change in the way you live...

Ray of Hope: Jason Ray - ESPN Video - ESPN

My wife and I just watched the video,this put a lump in my throat and my wife had tears in her eyes.

Really powerful, huh? Especially for a believer who gets the deeper meaning.
 
Logical rules necessarily fall apart before the big bang, since only logic and reason are emergent only with the properties of our known universe.

This doesn't stop science from proposing the multi-universe theory or from Hawkins doing Nat Geo specials on what caused the big bang.

argument from authority

Actually from assumptions that can't be proven or disproven that may be why they make it sound so convinicing. Man is in a position of ignorance when it comes to the genesis of the universe and life.

I can reason complexity because we see it happening all around us. I can't reson purpsoseful chance and coincedence. I can't reason a non-thinking process creating everything necessary for life,like blood,important organs,oxygen,the sun and moon,an atmosphere,and a lot of water, And last but not least all the parts needed to form a cell coming together to form life. I do believe in miracles but only directed miracles.

I just can't reason chaos becomes order never and no one can give me an example of such a thing.
 
Last edited:
My wife and I just watched the video,this put a lump in my throat and my wife had tears in her eyes.

what does this 'parable' have anything to do with other than modern science? Nothing.

Did you read the definition of parable? The story is very similar to the story of Christ. Jason Ray died so that others could live. His sacrifice gave the recipients a fresh start just as Christ's sacrifice give those who accept him new life. Many Christians can start to take what Christ did for granted. Did you notice that most of the organ recipients said there was not a day that went by that they didn't think about Jason and what he had done for them? Did you notice the heart recipient say Jason heart lives on in me? How much more amazing that God humbled himself to become a man and made the choice to die for us?

Galatians 2:20 (NIV) I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. The life I now live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me.

1 John 3:16 This is how we know what love is: Jesus Christ laid down his life for us. And we ought to lay down our lives for our brothers and sisters. 17 If anyone has material possessions and sees a brother or sister in need but has no pity on them, how can the love of God be in that person? 18 Dear children, let us not love with words or speech but with actions and in truth.

I thought Jason Ray died in an accident, without any choice? He died so that others could live? No, that's not it at all. His organ donation allowed others to live, but that isn't WHY he died. Unless, perhaps, you are saying that god killed him so that his organs would go to others?

As to god humbling himself and sacrificing himself, I've never quite understood the reasoning there. He's god....so how much of a sacrifice is it? He can't actually die! Is it humbling? I can't say I know how becoming human would be for an all-powerful being....and was he not god while Jesus was alive? Was the universe running without direction during that time? And finally, if you believe god knows everything that was, is, and will be, then he already knew what would happen when he decided to create life and mankind, so it's not much of a sacrifice or humbling experience.
 
Logical rules necessarily fall apart before the big bang, since only logic and reason are emergent only with the properties of our known universe.

This doesn't stop science from proposing the multi-universe theory or from Hawkins doing Nat Geo specials on what caused the big bang.

argument from authority

You need to cool it with your new found "guide to logical fallacies 101" handbook because your true understanding of them is internet shallow. The statement about Hawkins was a comment, not an argument. But while we are on the topic, your assertion that logic and reason are only emergent with the properties of our universe is a metaphysical claim. This is a classic blunder of evolutionists. I referred to it in a quote about Contrastive reasoning on page 316 of this thread. Your argument above "makes a subtle but crucial non scientific assumption."
 
what does this 'parable' have anything to do with other than modern science? Nothing.

Did you read the definition of parable? The story is very similar to the story of Christ. Jason Ray died so that others could live. His sacrifice gave the recipients a fresh start just as Christ's sacrifice give those who accept him new life. Many Christians can start to take what Christ did for granted. Did you notice that most of the organ recipients said there was not a day that went by that they didn't think about Jason and what he had done for them? Did you notice the heart recipient say Jason heart lives on in me? How much more amazing that God humbled himself to become a man and made the choice to die for us?

Galatians 2:20 (NIV) I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. The life I now live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me.

1 John 3:16 This is how we know what love is: Jesus Christ laid down his life for us. And we ought to lay down our lives for our brothers and sisters. 17 If anyone has material possessions and sees a brother or sister in need but has no pity on them, how can the love of God be in that person? 18 Dear children, let us not love with words or speech but with actions and in truth.

I thought Jason Ray died in an accident, without any choice? He died so that others could live? No, that's not it at all. His organ donation allowed others to live, but that isn't WHY he died. Unless, perhaps, you are saying that god killed him so that his organs would go to others?

As to god humbling himself and sacrificing himself, I've never quite understood the reasoning there. He's god....so how much of a sacrifice is it? He can't actually die! Is it humbling? I can't say I know how becoming human would be for an all-powerful being....and was he not god while Jesus was alive? Was the universe running without direction during that time? And finally, if you believe god knows everything that was, is, and will be, then he already knew what would happen when he decided to create life and mankind, so it's not much of a sacrifice or humbling experience.

So you wouldn't mind being locked up and water boarded for awhile, and then being sodomized by 25 inmates as long as you knew you wouldn't really be injured and be able to walk free and alive a week later?
 
Did you read the definition of parable? The story is very similar to the story of Christ. Jason Ray died so that others could live. His sacrifice gave the recipients a fresh start just as Christ's sacrifice give those who accept him new life. Many Christians can start to take what Christ did for granted. Did you notice that most of the organ recipients said there was not a day that went by that they didn't think about Jason and what he had done for them? Did you notice the heart recipient say Jason heart lives on in me? How much more amazing that God humbled himself to become a man and made the choice to die for us?

Galatians 2:20 (NIV) I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. The life I now live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me.

1 John 3:16 This is how we know what love is: Jesus Christ laid down his life for us. And we ought to lay down our lives for our brothers and sisters. 17 If anyone has material possessions and sees a brother or sister in need but has no pity on them, how can the love of God be in that person? 18 Dear children, let us not love with words or speech but with actions and in truth.

I thought Jason Ray died in an accident, without any choice? He died so that others could live? No, that's not it at all. His organ donation allowed others to live, but that isn't WHY he died. Unless, perhaps, you are saying that god killed him so that his organs would go to others?

As to god humbling himself and sacrificing himself, I've never quite understood the reasoning there. He's god....so how much of a sacrifice is it? He can't actually die! Is it humbling? I can't say I know how becoming human would be for an all-powerful being....and was he not god while Jesus was alive? Was the universe running without direction during that time? And finally, if you believe god knows everything that was, is, and will be, then he already knew what would happen when he decided to create life and mankind, so it's not much of a sacrifice or humbling experience.

So you wouldn't mind being locked up and water boarded for awhile, and then being sodomized by 25 inmates as long as you knew you wouldn't really be injured and be able to walk free and alive a week later?

What does that have to do with anything? I'm not god.

Again, all powerful, eternal being cannot die. For all we know, even if Jesus died as the bible describes and he was the son of god, he could have not felt pain. Even if he felt the pain just as a normal human, what does that mean to an all powerful, eternal being?

And again, if god knows everything that is, was or will be, than doesn't it mean he planned it this way all along?
 
I thought Jason Ray died in an accident, without any choice? He died so that others could live? No, that's not it at all. His organ donation allowed others to live, but that isn't WHY he died. Unless, perhaps, you are saying that god killed him so that his organs would go to others?

As to god humbling himself and sacrificing himself, I've never quite understood the reasoning there. He's god....so how much of a sacrifice is it? He can't actually die! Is it humbling? I can't say I know how becoming human would be for an all-powerful being....and was he not god while Jesus was alive? Was the universe running without direction during that time? And finally, if you believe god knows everything that was, is, and will be, then he already knew what would happen when he decided to create life and mankind, so it's not much of a sacrifice or humbling experience.

So you wouldn't mind being locked up and water boarded for awhile, and then being sodomized by 25 inmates as long as you knew you wouldn't really be injured and be able to walk free and alive a week later?

What does that have to do with anything? I'm not god.

Again, all powerful, eternal being cannot die. For all we know, even if Jesus died as the bible describes and he was the son of god, he could have not felt pain. Even if he felt the pain just as a normal human, what does that mean to an all powerful, eternal being?

And again, if god knows everything that is, was or will be, than doesn't it mean he planned it this way all along?

I don't think God planned it. But I do think knowing the outcome, he made the choice to proceed with creating the earth, because He knew in the end He would be loved by us and good would triumph. You are not the first to wrestle with these questions. Theologians have been thinking on these things for centuries. "Of course God knew what would happen if they used their freedom the wrong way: apparently He thought it worth the risk." CS Lewis

http://newcreationperson.wordpress.com/2010/08/27/if-god-is-omniscient-why-did-he-create-the-world-knowing-it-would-fall-into-sin/

Here is what you miss... Jesus humbled himself to become a man, with all the fears, pain, and bodily functions of a human. He had a mother and father he loved. He struggled with everything normal humans struggle with. He even asked the Father if there was anyway he could get out of dying and accomplish the same thing. The cup represents his death. Just the night before, Christ had used a cup of wine to symbolize his blood that would be shed on the cross.

Matthew 26:36: Then Jesus went with his disciples to a place called Gethsemane, and he said to them, “Sit here while I go over there and pray.” 37 He took Peter and the two sons of Zebedee along with him, and he began to be sorrowful and troubled. 38 Then he said to them, “My soul is overwhelmed with sorrow to the point of death. Stay here and keep watch with me.”

39 Going a little farther, he fell with his face to the ground and prayed, “My Father, if it is possible, may this cup be taken from me. Yet not as I will, but as you will.”

40 Then he returned to his disciples and found them sleeping. “Couldn’t you men keep watch with me for one hour?” he asked Peter. 41 “Watch and pray so that you will not fall into temptation. The spirit is willing, but the flesh is weak.”

If you really want a true understanding of how it went down, I think Mel Gibsons Passion of the Christ follows the story in the Bible very closely.

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VhLx7i2KNbE"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VhLx7i2KNbE[/ame]
 
Last edited:
C.S. Lewis Quotes –
"Atheism turns out to be too simple. If the whole universe has no meaning, we should never have found out that it has no meaning. . ." – Mere Christianity

"Now that I am a Christian I do have moods in which the whole thing looks improbable: but when I was an atheist I had moods in which Christianity looked terribly probable." – Mere Christianity

Try to exclude the possibility of suffering which the order of nature and the existence of free-wills involve, and you find that you have excluded life itself. – The Problem of Pain

My argument against God was that the universe seemed so cruel and unjust. But how had I got this idea of just and unjust? A man does not call a line crooked unless he has some idea of a straight line. What was I comparing this universe with when I called it unjust? - Mere Christianity
 
Last edited:
Glassyeyedave:

"I see more than one question being asked here.

One question is, did God know that man would fall into sin before He created him?

The second question is, if he knew that man was going to sin, why did he make him anyway?

Anyhow this is how I see this conversation.

Well did God know that man would fall into sin before He created them? We know that He did, not because of an orthodox position as the source of our confidence, rather it is because it is part of our gospel.

Our gospel does not teach that Christ died around 33 AD. Our gospel teaches us that Christ died before the foundation of the world.

(Rev 13:8 NIV) All inhabitants of the earth will worship the beast–all whose names have not been written in the book of life belonging to the Lamb that was slain from the creation of the world.

Paul teaches us that we had the hope of salvation promised to mankind before mankind was ever created.

(Titus 1:1-2 NIV) Paul, a servant of God and an apostle of Jesus Christ for the faith of God’s elect and the knowledge of the truth that leads to godliness–a faith and knowledge resting on the hope of eternal life, which God, who does not lie, promised before the beginning of time, [Hawkins now believes that even time itself began at the Big Bang. There was no time before the universe.]

Not only do we have a promise of salvation before time began, even our reward was prepared for us who believe, even before man was created

(Mat 25:34 NIV) “Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world.

Even names are written in the book of life before the foundation of the world. Names of people who do not exist. Sounds kind of detailed for God if He is not omniscient.

(Rev 17:8 NIV) The beast, which you saw, once was, now is not, and will come up out of the Abyss and go to his destruction. The inhabitants of the earth whose names have not been written in the book of life from the creation of the world will be astonished when they see the beast, because he once was, now is not, and yet will come.

So it is true when scripture says:

(Heb 4:4 NIV) For somewhere he has spoken about the seventh day in these words: “And on the seventh day God rested from all his work.”

Furthermore it is true when scripture says:

(Heb 13:8 NIV) Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever.

We are all familiar with other scripture that speaks of how God changes not. These are all testimony to our gospel. Our gospel is not that God knew that man would sin. Our gospel is that God provided for a sinful man before he was even created, so that sinful man would have a hope of salvation.

This ties directly into the other question. Why would God create man knowing He was going to sin?

God has done something for sinful man before sinful man was ever created. As Paul says this act of God’s love towards us is a promise of salvation before the world began. Paul tells us that God created us that we would do more than seek him, but reach out to Him and fin Him.

(Acts 17:26-27 NIV) From one man he made every nation of men, that they should inhabit the whole earth; and he determined the times set for them and the exact places where they should live. God did this so that men would seek him and perhaps reach out for him and find him, though he is not far from each one of us.

But this not the end game to the question why? Rather it is the means to the reason why.

By God providing for us before the foundation of the world and His planting us here on the earth to reach out to Him and find Him. It achieves the purpose of why God created man knowing that he would fall into sin.

(Eph 2:6-7 NIV) And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus.

God started all this because it pleases Him to show the incomparable riches of His grace and kindness to us in Christ who are a fallen creature. Bottom line, this is why scripture says Christ endured the cross because of the joy set before Him, because He desires to demonstrate His grace and love to us.

(Heb 12:2 NIV) Let us fix our eyes on Jesus, the author and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy set before him endured the cross, scorning its shame, and sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.

To me the question isn’t a tricky one to answer, for God’s word is clear about His understanding, His work, His provision, His motivation and why we should worship such a loving God.

I personally do not agree that God’s whole purpose of creation was to manifest His glory. I see it rather as a manifestation of His love expressed in His grace. Just because His glory is manifest in His creation, doesn’t mean it was the purpose. To me it is like saying the purpose of the race car is to magnify those companies who sponsor the car. The purpose is not is what we easily see, but what is revealed in the mystery of our gospel. This being God expressing His love to a sinful mankind through His grace.

Scripture does not say, for God so purposed His glory to be displayed that He sent His son, as it appears you have said. Maybe I misunderstood. But I see God sending His Son in the greatest expression of His love towards us in His grace

Am I out in left field on this one Carl? Well WoundedEgo, am I? As one who does not know everything and does not have the education you have, it seems as if you two are arguing all around the topic but not discussing the topic."

If God is Omniscient, Why Did He Create the World Knowing it Would Fall into Sin? « A NEW CREATION
 
Last edited:
This doesn't stop science from proposing the multi-universe theory or from Hawkins doing Nat Geo specials on what caused the big bang.

argument from authority

You need to cool it with your new found "guide to logical fallacies 101" handbook because your true understanding of them is internet shallow. The statement about Hawkins was a comment, not an argument. But while we are on the topic, your assertion that logic and reason are only emergent with the properties of our universe is a metaphysical claim. This is a classic blunder of evolutionists. I referred to it in a quote about Contrastive reasoning on page 316 of this thread. Your argument above "makes a subtle but crucial non scientific assumption."


Everytime you demonstrate a logical fallacy, I am going to call you out. It is simply necessary in order to have a logical discussion. Don't ask for special pleading.

edit: oh, sorry... it was an appeal to authority. Yet, you were trying to make a point by writing what you did, in an attempt to bolster your argument.
 
Last edited:
I'm not sure why they always feminize Christ in paintings. Since he was a carpenter, I'm guessing he wasn't the skinny dude the always portray him to be.
do you always miss the elephant in the room?
jesus was not a white guy ....the diet of the pesants of that time is not well documented .
it's a fairly good bet he was not fat and likely not very tall.
like all ignorant people you don't know the difference between beautifaction and feminized
I was skinny still tall and a carpenter so what's your point?

This is the line of thinking that created macro-evolution.
guess you never under stood the concept that keeping your mouth shut and let everyone think you're a fool...rather than opening it and leaving no doubt ....works!
 
This is fallacy that doesn't take into account two very important things:

God has always existed.

God exists outside of matter, space, time, and energy.

Before you get your panties in a wad, Einstein missed the evidence pointing to the big bang because he believed in an eternal universe. Einstein believed the universe had always existed and had no beginning. So the concept that something has no beginning is not foreign to science.
so Einstein was wrong.
you are also wrong because you cannot prove 1. god exists 2. without that proof the rest is a steaming pile of shitty assumptions.
it's another declaratory statement with no basis in fact..

Same could be said for many scientific theories but creation just fits better with the evidence.
declaratory statement with no basis in fact
 
So it obvious you reject the claim that man is born sinful. That leaves you with a humanistic viewpoint that man is good. So how do you account for evil in the world? How do fathers on meth pour gas on their 4-year-old daughters and burn them alive in the desert? How does a man abuct other men, rape and kill them, and then keep their body parts in his fridge? Because they are essentially good, right?

Sadly, you appear to be the product of the last 50 years of lib education in this country. Next thing I know you will be quoting Maslow. It doesn't surprise me, as would not your next post modernistic arguments seeded with moral relativism. Without absolute truth, anything goes. First gay marriage, and then child molestation in some instances.

Here's Wil Provine, materialist fundamentalist evolutionist priest, discussing free will, with some Hollie hate for Christians thrown in for good measure. His comments are so transparent it is obvious he was raised Christian and is now gay.

Will Provine: Naturalistic Implications - The Truth Project

Post Modernism and Moral Relativsm explained...


On Postmodernism and Relativism - The Truth Project

focus on the family fuuuuuuuuuuuuck me!

Daws you are one sick person and did to many drugs you pervert.


right ! :eek:n July 21st, 2011 at 10:19 am

Focus on the Family has a long record of telling untruths about LGBT people and our families. Truth Wins Out’s “Respect my Research” project has video footage of respected scholars making statements about how various representatives of Christian Right organizations (including Focus on the Family) deliberately misuse science to demonize us. Focus on the Family has done all of the things that SPLC used to designate Family Research Council (also co-founded by James Dobson, by the way) a hate group, including implying that LGBT people are more likely to be sexual predators of children.

When are you going to finally designate Focus on the Family as a hate group? This is LONG overdue.

U.S. Senator Catches Anti-Gay Testifier Misrepresenting Study | Hatewatch | Southern Poverty Law Center


that's: too many and I did just enough..
as to sick and perverted as always you're talking out your ass!
 
What are you doing to help the hurting and the poor? What personal sacrifices are you making for another human or humans?

By the way Daws, Hollie and NP, this wasn't a rhetorical question.
among other things I am doing a great service to mankind by presents logic and reason when you present paranoid delusional pseudo science and dogma.
 
You didn't answer my questions:

Do YOU believe man is born good or born evil as the Bible teaches?

How do you account for evil in the world? Do lions kill anything they will not eat? Do animals use sexual acts for violence?
yes some do..lions will kill for sport . domestic cats will spend hours torturing their catch.
dogs mount each other to assert sexual dominance.
most all animals will fight over territory or food (including humans)
dolphins bully and kill un desirable pod members.
our closest relatives murder, rape ant abuse their young and each other (just like us).
the logical conclusion if you believe in god is he put evil in all of his creations.
why?

may be he likes to watch?

Wow how moronic,you can read a dogs's mind what is he doing when your dog does it to your leg ?
another non answer answer since you are unable to disprove any of the statement ....here's your ass again!
 
focus on the family fuuuuuuuuuuuuck me!

Daws you are one sick person and did to many drugs you pervert.


right ! :eek:n July 21st, 2011 at 10:19 am

Focus on the Family has a long record of telling untruths about LGBT people and our families. Truth Wins Out’s “Respect my Research” project has video footage of respected scholars making statements about how various representatives of Christian Right organizations (including Focus on the Family) deliberately misuse science to demonize us. Focus on the Family has done all of the things that SPLC used to designate Family Research Council (also co-founded by James Dobson, by the way) a hate group, including implying that LGBT people are more likely to be sexual predators of children.

When are you going to finally designate Focus on the Family as a hate group? This is LONG overdue.

U.S. Senator Catches Anti-Gay Testifier Misrepresenting Study | Hatewatch | Southern Poverty Law Center


that's: too many and I did just enough..
as to sick and perverted as always you're talking out your ass!

Southern Poverty Law Center?? What a joke!! That is worse than me linking to Focus on the Family.

Now here is what is classic about your response... You immediately discount the Wil Provine video because it is on a FOTF website. I take it you didn't listen to it but spent more time trying to dig up dirt on FOTF from bias sources. Had you watched the video and not been so blind, you'd have seen that Provine is a SUPER PRO EVOLUTION Professor who hates Christians. He is just like you but because you are so blinded you missed the video because of the source. Unbelievable!!!!
 
Last edited:
do you always miss the elephant in the room?
jesus was not a white guy ....the diet of the pesants of that time is not well documented .
it's a fairly good bet he was not fat and likely not very tall.
like all ignorant people you don't know the difference between beautifaction and feminized
I was skinny still tall and a carpenter so what's your point?

This is the line of thinking that created macro-evolution.
guess you never under stood the concept that keeping your mouth shut and let everyone think you're a fool...rather than opening it and leaving no doubt ....works!

Projecting.
 
What are you doing to help the hurting and the poor? What personal sacrifices are you making for another human or humans?

By the way Daws, Hollie and NP, this wasn't a rhetorical question.
among other things I am doing a great service to mankind by presents logic and reason when you present paranoid delusional pseudo science and dogma.

Really Daws ? I have a series of questions to ask you I will go one at a time and if you can answer these questions absent of conjecture,I will believe you are a person of science and might even change my mind about evolution.

1.Do any structures in the cell resemble highly intricate machines designed by humans ?
Remember no conjecture ,Explain how these Molecular Machines evolved.
 
Last edited:
Status
Not open for further replies.

Forum List

Back
Top