Creationists

[Montrovant]

Is humankind born into sin, or is mankind essentially good? You decide...

Depravity of Man - The Truth Project

Are those the only 2 options?

 

[UltimateReality]

Is humankind born into sin, or is mankind essentially good? You decide...

Depravity of Man - The Truth Project

Are those the only 2 options?

Throw out a 3rd. Those are just the two MAIN world views.

 

[Montrovant]

Is humankind born into sin, or is mankind essentially good? You decide...

Depravity of Man - The Truth Project

Are those the only 2 options?

Throw out a 3rd. Those are just the two MAIN world views.

Well, how about mankind is neither good nor evil by nature? That we are fairly neutral, and can go either way based on a combination of choices, genetics and upbringing/environment?

 

[daws101]

Daws you are an Idiot.

proving once again you have no Idea what you're talking about ,fact is I looked very much like that in the 70's
same eye color my hair was a bit longer even had a shirt that looked like that.

the thing is neither the person in that picture or myself look at all like jesus..

I'm not sure why they always feminize Christ in paintings. Since he was a carpenter, I'm guessing he wasn't the skinny dude the always portray him to be.

do you always miss the elephant in the room?
jesus was not a white guy ....the diet of the pesants of that time is not well documented .
it's a fairly good bet he was not fat and likely not very tall.
like all ignorant people you don't know the difference between beautifaction and feminized
I was skinny still tall and a carpenter so what's your point?

 

[daws101]

proving once again you have no Idea what you're talking about ,fact is I looked very much like that in the 70's
same eye color my hair was a bit longer even had a shirt that looked like that.

the thing is neither the person in that picture or myself look at all like jesus..

I'm not sure why they always feminize Christ in paintings. Since he was a carpenter, I'm guessing he wasn't the skinny dude the always portray him to be.

And he probably didn't have that long hair either. They want him to look like some of the weirdest people on the planet ,the hippies.

once again you ignorance and bigotry shines!

 

[daws101]

Here's a proof for you believers. It's a spin off of Kalam's Cosmological Argument, but one that actually makes sense.

1.Everything that exists has a cause.
2. God has no cause.
3. God does not exist.

This is fallacy that doesn't take into account two very important things:

God has always existed.

God exists outside of matter, space, time, and energy.

Before you get your panties in a wad, Einstein missed the evidence pointing to the big bang because he believed in an eternal universe. Einstein believed the universe had always existed and had no beginning. So the concept that something has no beginning is not foreign to science.

so Einstein was wrong.
you are also wrong because you cannot prove 1. god exists 2. without that proof the rest is a steaming pile of shitty assumptions.
it's another declaratory statement with no basis in fact..

 

[daws101]

You guys aren't the first to grapple with these theological arguments, and you won't be the last. God allows evil because he created us as free agents. The necessary construct of the TOE is you do not have Free Will. Even now, you don't really have a choice to respond to me. You are just an organism reacting to stimuli, with the response already programmed into your genetic makeup. For you, free will is just an illusion.

[url=http://evolutionaryphilosophy.com/2009/04/20/conscious-evolution-and-freewill/]Conscious Evolution and Free Will? « Evolutionary Philosophy[/URL]

Evolutionary philosophy?!?!? What the freak? Hollie, I thought evolution was just science and nothing more.

You're little explanation of using free will is completely insufficient to explain the presence of evil, IF your god is omnibenevolent, omnipotent, and omniscient. Inherent contradictions necessarily exist if he knows the future, is all powerful, yet can not stop the world from evil or can not get rid of his own creation, the devil, if you believe in that. He would have known adam was going to fall from grace, and all of the evil that was to fall, yet let it happen anyway, then created a loophole for his inability to do anything about, by bringing down his own son, and demanding only belief in him, without any respect to conduct towards others. The whole idea of christianity sets up a morally bankrupt ideology that tricks people into believing they are evil (original sin) and offering the antidote (Jesus). Only someone raised in this situation or so desperate to be saved from themselves (addicts) could possibly use this belief structure and not see it for what it is: manipulative.

So it obvious you reject the claim that man is born sinful. That leaves you with a humanistic viewpoint that man is good. So how do you account for evil in the world? How do fathers on meth pour gas on their 4-year-old daughters and burn them alive in the desert? How does a man abuct other men, rape and kill them, and then keep their body parts in his fridge? Because they are essentially good, right?

Sadly, you appear to be the product of the last 50 years of lib education in this country. Next thing I know you will be quoting Maslow. It doesn't surprise me, as would not your next post modernistic arguments seeded with moral relativism. Without absolute truth, anything goes. First gay marriage, and then child molestation in some instances.

Here's Wil Provine, materialist fundamentalist evolutionist priest, discussing free will, with some Hollie hate for Christians thrown in for good measure. His comments are so transparent it is obvious he was raised Christian and is now gay.

Will Provine: Naturalistic Implications - The Truth Project

Post Modernism and Moral Relativsm explained...


On Postmodernism and Relativism - The Truth Project

focus on the family fuuuuuuuuuuuuck me!

 

[daws101]

So it obvious you reject the claim that man is born sinful. That leaves you with a humanistic viewpoint that man is good. So how do you account for evil in the world? How do fathers on meth pour gas on their 4-year-old daughters and burn them alive in the desert? How does a man abuct other men, rape and kill them, and then keep their body parts in his fridge? Because they are essentially good, right?

Sadly, you appear to be the product of the last 50 years of lib education in this country. Next thing I know you will be quoting Maslow. It doesn't surprise me, as would not your next post modernistic arguments seeded with moral relativism. Without absolute truth, anything goes. First gay marriage, and then child molestation in some instances.

Here's Wil Provine, materialist fundamentalist evolutionist priest, discussing free will, with some Hollie hate for Christians thrown in for good measure. His comments are so transparent it is obvious he was raised Christian and is now gay.




On Postmodernism and Relativism - The Truth Project

your logic is one big argument from ignorance, once again, this time applied to morality instead of evolution or creation. You can't account for morality without god, so you assert God to make it true. I don't pretend to know what morality is for certain, nor did I say humans are 'good' so I don't appreciate your sarcastic ramblings. I suspect that morality is an emergent property of being conscious beings with the ability to recollect the past and anticipate the future, while being aware of other beings who have that same capacity and with whom we must share space on this earth for the duration of our consciousness. Therefore, it is in our own best interest to behave in a way that doesn't return to us harm, but instead brings up good things. Moral behavior, therefore, can be reduced to individual pyschologies and incentives that are seen with respect to behavior. In other words, programming from childhood and upbringing, and continually fine-tuned throughout our adult life. For example, if a person already hates themselves, there is no incentive to engage in 'good' behavior, because any good behavior that is brought about in return will not be perceived as indicative of his/her character, but as foreign to their self-image. Therefore, their patterns of behavior will follow a line of self-destruction as a result of their thought patterns, which come from the past. Hence, the reason for the existence of psychotherapy. The golden rule is a good template. Consequentialism is another way to look at it. But, simply asserting God solves nothing, considering that god an immoral asshole who advocates slavery and murder as evidenced in the old testament. (If you attempt to claim the superiority of the new testament, you violate the definition of god as being all-knowing, all-powerful, and never-changing)

You didn't answer my questions:

Do YOU believe man is born good or born evil as the Bible teaches?

How do you account for evil in the world? Do lions kill anything they will not eat? Do animals use sexual acts for violence?

yes some do..lions will kill for sport . domestic cats will spend hours torturing their catch.
dogs mount each other to assert sexual dominance.
most all animals will fight over territory or food (including humans)
dolphins bully and kill un desirable pod members.
our closest relatives murder, rape ant abuse their young and each other (just like us).
the logical conclusion if you believe in god is he put evil in all of his creations.
why?

may be he likes to watch?

 

[UltimateReality]

proving once again you have no Idea what you're talking about ,fact is I looked very much like that in the 70's
same eye color my hair was a bit longer even had a shirt that looked like that.

the thing is neither the person in that picture or myself look at all like jesus..

I'm not sure why they always feminize Christ in paintings. Since he was a carpenter, I'm guessing he wasn't the skinny dude the always portray him to be.

do you always miss the elephant in the room?
jesus was not a white guy ....the diet of the pesants of that time is not well documented .
it's a fairly good bet he was not fat and likely not very tall.
like all ignorant people you don't know the difference between beautifaction and feminized
I was skinny still tall and a carpenter so what's your point?

"was" being the operative word.

The point is, he didn't have power tools.

 

[Youwerecreated]

What part of the theory of evolution requires a lack of free will?

I read your link, it did not say evolution requires a lack of free will.

Also, to flip things around, if there is a god, and god knows everything that ever has or ever will occur, there is no free will.

Whether you like it or not everyone has a choice, That is free will.

 

[Youwerecreated]

So why the requirement for gods?

I let you figure that one out.

I'm not surprised at your answer. The timeframes described for earth history and for the age of the universe (which those evil scientists have factual data to support) , make your gods and all gods superfluous. While creationists / I'D'ers (one and the same), will reel and deny the fact of "evilution", there is no credible argument to deny the science fact. What we have is credible data to support the theory of fitness for survival and adaptation over time. Immense time scales only add to support the theory.

Even if one or more gods (and all the asserted gods share the same credibility as your gods) provided the first spark of life, an absent, uninvolved and disinterested god(s) is/are synonymous with "nonexistence". What slather nonexistence with a host of human attributes ?

There is also factual data that presents problems for the theory.

 

[Youwerecreated]

"God didn't who god was until he made himself human."

I'm sorry dude but I can't have a logical discussion with you if you are going to mis-quote me. This is not what I said. I said... Man did not have an full understanding of who God was until God became man and dwelt among us. You are building a strawman. No part of Christian theology states that God entered man's hand and wrote down the Bible for him. This is a totally ignorant understanding of the religion. Christians believe that scripture is inspired by God with the exception of the direct quotes attributed to Jesus while he was here on earth, which can be considered the direct Word of God. Inspired is used in the context of Divine influence. I think you are failing to grasp the Bible is the assembly of 66 books with many different authors. The New Testament even consists of letters written to real churches containing real people at a real time in history. All books of the Bible must be interpreted using the principles of hermeneutics.

I meant to say, "God didn't know who god was until he made himself human," and I wasn't quoting you, I was para-phrasing your story. Also, I am not building a strawman. In fact, quite the contrary. It seems that you are. I never claimed, insinuated, or inferrred that God guided the hands of the authors. I never mentioned authorship once during this disccusion. Am I mistaken here? Seriously, how did you get to authorship from where we were?

How do you figure God didn't know who he was until he made himself a man ?

 

[Youwerecreated]

I'm not sure why they always feminize Christ in paintings. Since he was a carpenter, I'm guessing he wasn't the skinny dude the always portray him to be.

And he probably didn't have that long hair either. They want him to look like some of the weirdest people on the planet ,the hippies.

once again you ignorance and bigotry shines!

They were weird, and how is that being a bigot not that I care that is a term used alot from california liberals.

 

[Youwerecreated]

Are those the only 2 options?

Throw out a 3rd. Those are just the two MAIN world views.

Well, how about mankind is neither good nor evil by nature? That we are fairly neutral, and can go either way based on a combination of choices, genetics and upbringing/environment?

Come on monty, look at the atrocities of man sometimes by an order from a man.

 

[Youwerecreated]

proving once again you have no Idea what you're talking about ,fact is I looked very much like that in the 70's
same eye color my hair was a bit longer even had a shirt that looked like that.

the thing is neither the person in that picture or myself look at all like jesus..

I'm not sure why they always feminize Christ in paintings. Since he was a carpenter, I'm guessing he wasn't the skinny dude the always portray him to be.

do you always miss the elephant in the room?
jesus was not a white guy ....the diet of the pesants of that time is not well documented .
it's a fairly good bet he was not fat and likely not very tall.
like all ignorant people you don't know the difference between beautifaction and feminized
I was skinny still tall and a carpenter so what's your point?

This is the line of thinking that created macro-evolution.

 

[Youwerecreated]

Here's a proof for you believers. It's a spin off of Kalam's Cosmological Argument, but one that actually makes sense.

1.Everything that exists has a cause.
2. God has no cause.
3. God does not exist.

This is fallacy that doesn't take into account two very important things:

God has always existed.

God exists outside of matter, space, time, and energy.

Before you get your panties in a wad, Einstein missed the evidence pointing to the big bang because he believed in an eternal universe. Einstein believed the universe had always existed and had no beginning. So the concept that something has no beginning is not foreign to science.

so Einstein was wrong.
you are also wrong because you cannot prove 1. god exists 2. without that proof the rest is a steaming pile of shitty assumptions.
it's another declaratory statement with no basis in fact..

Same could be said for many scientific theories but creation just fits better with the evidence.

 

[Youwerecreated]

You're little explanation of using free will is completely insufficient to explain the presence of evil, IF your god is omnibenevolent, omnipotent, and omniscient. Inherent contradictions necessarily exist if he knows the future, is all powerful, yet can not stop the world from evil or can not get rid of his own creation, the devil, if you believe in that. He would have known adam was going to fall from grace, and all of the evil that was to fall, yet let it happen anyway, then created a loophole for his inability to do anything about, by bringing down his own son, and demanding only belief in him, without any respect to conduct towards others. The whole idea of christianity sets up a morally bankrupt ideology that tricks people into believing they are evil (original sin) and offering the antidote (Jesus). Only someone raised in this situation or so desperate to be saved from themselves (addicts) could possibly use this belief structure and not see it for what it is: manipulative.

So it obvious you reject the claim that man is born sinful. That leaves you with a humanistic viewpoint that man is good. So how do you account for evil in the world? How do fathers on meth pour gas on their 4-year-old daughters and burn them alive in the desert? How does a man abuct other men, rape and kill them, and then keep their body parts in his fridge? Because they are essentially good, right?

Sadly, you appear to be the product of the last 50 years of lib education in this country. Next thing I know you will be quoting Maslow. It doesn't surprise me, as would not your next post modernistic arguments seeded with moral relativism. Without absolute truth, anything goes. First gay marriage, and then child molestation in some instances.

Here's Wil Provine, materialist fundamentalist evolutionist priest, discussing free will, with some Hollie hate for Christians thrown in for good measure. His comments are so transparent it is obvious he was raised Christian and is now gay.

Will Provine: Naturalistic Implications - The Truth Project

Post Modernism and Moral Relativsm explained...


On Postmodernism and Relativism - The Truth Project

focus on the family fuuuuuuuuuuuuck me!

Daws you are one sick person and did to many drugs you pervert.

 

[Youwerecreated]

your logic is one big argument from ignorance, once again, this time applied to morality instead of evolution or creation. You can't account for morality without god, so you assert God to make it true. I don't pretend to know what morality is for certain, nor did I say humans are 'good' so I don't appreciate your sarcastic ramblings. I suspect that morality is an emergent property of being conscious beings with the ability to recollect the past and anticipate the future, while being aware of other beings who have that same capacity and with whom we must share space on this earth for the duration of our consciousness. Therefore, it is in our own best interest to behave in a way that doesn't return to us harm, but instead brings up good things. Moral behavior, therefore, can be reduced to individual pyschologies and incentives that are seen with respect to behavior. In other words, programming from childhood and upbringing, and continually fine-tuned throughout our adult life. For example, if a person already hates themselves, there is no incentive to engage in 'good' behavior, because any good behavior that is brought about in return will not be perceived as indicative of his/her character, but as foreign to their self-image. Therefore, their patterns of behavior will follow a line of self-destruction as a result of their thought patterns, which come from the past. Hence, the reason for the existence of psychotherapy. The golden rule is a good template. Consequentialism is another way to look at it. But, simply asserting God solves nothing, considering that god an immoral asshole who advocates slavery and murder as evidenced in the old testament. (If you attempt to claim the superiority of the new testament, you violate the definition of god as being all-knowing, all-powerful, and never-changing)

You didn't answer my questions:

Do YOU believe man is born good or born evil as the Bible teaches?

How do you account for evil in the world? Do lions kill anything they will not eat? Do animals use sexual acts for violence?

yes some do..lions will kill for sport . domestic cats will spend hours torturing their catch.
dogs mount each other to assert sexual dominance.
most all animals will fight over territory or food (including humans)
dolphins bully and kill un desirable pod members.
our closest relatives murder, rape ant abuse their young and each other (just like us).
the logical conclusion if you believe in god is he put evil in all of his creations.
why?

may be he likes to watch?

Wow how moronic,you can read a dogs's mind what is he doing when your dog does it to your leg ?

 

[Montrovant]

Throw out a 3rd. Those are just the two MAIN world views.

Well, how about mankind is neither good nor evil by nature? That we are fairly neutral, and can go either way based on a combination of choices, genetics and upbringing/environment?

Come on monty, look at the atrocities of man sometimes by an order from a man.

Look at the altruism of man. The point is that both sides of the coin are represented. Some are and do evil, some are and do good. Most of us, I think, are toward the middle. We are good at times, evil at times, but not often to extremes either way.

There's always the question of just what constitutes good and evil, of course, but that's a whole other discussion.

 

[Montrovant]

You didn't answer my questions:

Do YOU believe man is born good or born evil as the Bible teaches?

How do you account for evil in the world? Do lions kill anything they will not eat? Do animals use sexual acts for violence?

yes some do..lions will kill for sport . domestic cats will spend hours torturing their catch.
dogs mount each other to assert sexual dominance.
most all animals will fight over territory or food (including humans)
dolphins bully and kill un desirable pod members.
our closest relatives murder, rape ant abuse their young and each other (just like us).
the logical conclusion if you believe in god is he put evil in all of his creations.
why?

may be he likes to watch?

Wow how moronic,you can read a dogs's mind what is he doing when your dog does it to your leg ?

Are you saying that without telepathy we cannot determine the reason for another creature's actions? I'll grant you that there's always the possibility of being wrong, but I also think it can be more than wild guesswork.