Debt is Pushing the US Into Fascism

[georgephillip]

Which politician would you claim, will tackle entitlements, and reduce government spending?

I'm not sure why any rational person would reduce government spending in the midst of a pandemic/recession? I was more concerned with consumer debt and its potential to produce a fascist response in this thread:

Richard D. Wolff - The U.S. Is Borrowing Its Way to Fascism | Brave New Europe

"Today’s crisis-ridden capitalist economy is more dependent on credit than at any time in the system’s history. More than ever, credit sustains the purchasing power of consumers and of government programs.

"Capitalists depend on that purchasing power.

"Corporations now routinely carry more direct debt than at any time in the nation’s history.

"Zombie corporations—those whose profits no longer suffice to service their direct debts—now figure sizably in U.S. capitalism.

"Once it was mostly private entities—rich families, banks, insurance companies, and pension funds—that were the chief lenders to corporations.

"They bought and held the corporate bonds and IOUs. Now those private lenders increasingly sell their corporate bonds to the Federal Reserve."

 

[Andylusion]

Which politician would you claim, will tackle entitlements, and reduce government spending?

I'm not sure why any rational person would reduce government spending in the midst of a pandemic/recession? I was more concerned with consumer debt and its potential to produce a fascist response in this thread:

Richard D. Wolff - The U.S. Is Borrowing Its Way to Fascism | Brave New Europe

"Today’s crisis-ridden capitalist economy is more dependent on credit than at any time in the system’s history. More than ever, credit sustains the purchasing power of consumers and of government programs.

"Capitalists depend on that purchasing power.

"Corporations now routinely carry more direct debt than at any time in the nation’s history.

"Zombie corporations—those whose profits no longer suffice to service their direct debts—now figure sizably in U.S. capitalism.

"Once it was mostly private entities—rich families, banks, insurance companies, and pension funds—that were the chief lenders to corporations.

"They bought and held the corporate bonds and IOUs. Now those private lenders increasingly sell their corporate bonds to the Federal Reserve."

I'm not sure why any rational person would reduce government spending in the midst of a pandemic/recession?

Because it has worked every single time it has ever been tried, in human history?

Because it is obviously logical if you ever think about it? Without 100 years of proof that cutting spending during a recession works.... um... when you lose a job, or if your income dramatically falls... which works better for your family? Dramatically increasing spending until you are bankrupt and lose your house? Or cutting spending, until you can live within your budget and survive?

Not a hard concept here.

Zombie corporations—those whose profits no longer suffice to service their direct debts—now figure sizably in U.S. capitalism.

According to the data I've seen, that is only true of companies hard hit by the lock down measures.

Essentially you are saying "Companies that the government destroyed, are doing badly". Yeah. Shocking.

When the government finally ends this Corona virus non-sense, all of those companies will recover.

They bought and held the corporate bonds and IOUs. Now those private lenders increasingly sell their corporate bonds to the Federal Reserve.

Ok.... stop doing that. I'm against the Federal Reserve buying bonds.

Capitalists depend on that purchasing power.

These are dumb statements. Who does not depend on purchasing power? Name the country, anywhere in the world, at any time in history, that does not, or did not, depend on..... purchasing power?

Only in complete social break down, like Sudan with roving gangs of armed people, just taking what they want.... you depend on people buying and selling stuff..... purchasing power.

Such dumb ignorant nonsense you post on here all the time.

 

[Andylusion]

white terrorists murder less than 10 per year
blacks murder over 3000 per year hahahaahahahah
no conflating at all--that's the FACTS--which you have not listed ANY!!!

What does the FBI say?

FBI and DHS Warned of Growing Threat From White Supremacists Months Ago

What the FBI said, and what the prior poster said.... are not mutually exclusive. What you posted, does not contradict the facts he posted.

 

[Andylusion]

And has pushed Marxism ever since he gained his first degree....He is a documented Marxist...His credentials don't outweigh the strength of my argument.

The strength of your argument depends on how much you know about Marxism.

Marxism and socialism

"3. What is the Marxian definition of corporation? How is it different from the mainstream definition?

The Marxian definition of a corporation is wrong, contradictory, and hypocritical.

Because all people get more value from whatever exchange they engage in.

You personally do this on a routine basis. You hire someone to do a renovation to your home, which dramatically increases the value of your home.

Did you pay the people who did the renovation, the total value they created?

No. I guess you are an evil Capitalist.

You pay someone to repair your car, which dramatically increases the value of your car on the market.

Did you pay the repair guy the total value he created when he fixed your car?

No you did not.

So the Marxist complaint that corporations "extract" value from the worker, is no different than what every single human being the planet does on a routine basis.

So why do you care? Because other people do it, it's bad... but when you do it, it's good.

It's that simple.

The reality is far easier to understand. Countries that kick out the capitalists end up in ruins. Universally true. Never been a counter example. As much as you complain about exploitation, the reality is, people are better off when they are free to sell their labor to whomever is willing to buy, at whatever price they are willing to pay.

Getting rid of Marxist ideology of corporations, is the best way to growth and a better standard of living.

 

[miketx]

you vermin are doing it.

https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/maryanngeorgantopoulos/trump-immigrants-vermin-infest

 

[georgephillip]

If Warren Buffet were to lose half, or three fourths, or even 90% of his "share".... name one poor person anywhere on the planet that would be better off?

I'm not sure about Buffett's numbers.
Let's use Bezos
$180 billion.
How many millionaires could be created at Amazon if Jeff gave up 90% of his fortune by turning the corporation into a worker self-directed enterprise?

 

[georgephillip]

n 2007 crash, and during the 2020 crash, the top 1% lost tons of their "share" of the wealth.

Please name the poor or middle class people that were spontaneously better off?

You can't. Because there were none.

There's no shortage of parasites who became much richer from the losses suffered by the poor and middle class:

Profiting off pain: Trump confidant cashed in on housing crisis | Reveal

"One of President Donald Trump’s closest friends and confidants took advantage of the Great Recession to build an unprecedented real estate business that makes him tantamount to a modern-day slumlord – buying up homes, bumping up rents and allowing the properties to fall into disrepair.

"Southern California billionaire Thomas J. Barrack is the mastermind behind the scheme, founding a company five years ago that has taken 31,000 single-family homes off the housing market and calling it “the greatest thing I’ve ever done.”

"Barrack, like other close Trump associates, now stands to cash in on looser financial regulations, which he is in a position to shape."

 

[georgephillip]

Because it has worked every single time it has ever been tried, in human history?

Name one time reducing government spending during a global pandemic/recession has worked.

 

[georgephillip]

when you lose a job, or if your income dramatically falls... which works better for your family? Dramatically increasing spending until you are bankrupt and lose your house? Or cutting spending, until you can live within your budget and survive?

Are you confusing an individual family's budget with a sovereign currency provider? Governments can create money; individuals can not. Do you grasp that distinction?

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

"Now those private lenders increasingly sell their corporate bonds to the Federal Reserve.

"That happens when the corporate loans get packaged into asset-backed securities sold to the Federal Reserve.

Sounds horrible!!!
So how much have they "sold to the Fed"?
$100 billion? $50 billion? Less?

 

[georgephillip]

The strength of my argument is the constitution...And that is what we are governed by

What does the Constitution say about corporations?

 

[georgephillip]

These are dumb statements. Who does not depend on purchasing power? Name the country, anywhere in the world, at any time in history, that does not, or did not, depend on..... purchasing power?

Do you understand the distinction between purchases made with cash versus purchases made on credit, especially when the buyer does not get paid enough to cover basic monthly living expenses and using a credit card becomes mandatory?

The State of the American Debt Slaves, Q1 2020: How Are Consumers Positioned Going into the Crisis?

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

Keynesianism is socialism. Like socialism, it's facilitator, Keynesianism, is designed to fail. The electorate enjoys about three to four cents worth of purchasing power on the dollar now. Their savings continually robbed of its value by way of inflating the currency.

Keynes believe unfettered capitalism would lead to socialism since all good capitalists seek monopoly power:

Common Myths About Keynesian Economics - Pragmatic Capitalism.

"Yes, Keynes did not favor socialism, but was worried that an extreme case of capitalism could actually lead to a socialist takeover. This makes complete sense because capitalism is inherently monopolistic. A good capitalist wants to own all of the means of production so they can maximize profits."

“It is not from the benevolence of the butcher, the brewer, or the baker that we expect our dinner, but from their regard to their own interest. We address ourselves, not to their humanity but to their self-love, and never talk to them of our necessities but of their advantages.”

 

[Andylusion]

If Warren Buffet were to lose half, or three fourths, or even 90% of his "share".... name one poor person anywhere on the planet that would be better off?

I'm not sure about Buffett's numbers.
Let's use Bezos
$180 billion.
How many millionaires could be created at Amazon if Jeff gave up 90% of his fortune by turning the corporation into a worker self-directed enterprise?

Sure, ok.

Bezos loses $7 billion overnight, $18 billion in a month, as market sells off on coronavirus fears

Concerns over coronavirus have roiled markets and torched hundreds of billions in paper wealth from the world's billionaires over the past month. But last night's declines could be the largest overnight wealth loss in nearly a decade.

www.cnbc.com

Bezos lost $7 Billion dollars in March.

How many millionaires were created when that happened?

Please list the names?

But let's answer the question more directly.... how many Millionaires would be created if Bezos made Amazon into a worker self-directed enterprise.

Answer: Zero.

The flat out truth is... zero. Zero.

Let's take the example of Mondragon, the largest and longest running worker self-directed enterprise.

Everything about this company, has been mythologized. The leadership of the company, is rich and wealthy. The low-end workers, earn low end wages.

Why didn't that create hundreds of millionaires?

There is no example, of a workers co-op ever paying anything significantly more than private firms. None.

Further, self-directed is false. Just isn't true. In fact, Mondragon had to make attendance to the General Assembly mandatory, because the workers know they have no voice in the direction of the company, and would not attend the General Assembly meetings if it was not required.

The average worker at a co-op has no more say in the running of the company, than a Wendy's burger flipper has in the running of Wendy's.

So the answer to your questions is.... Zero. None. Zip. Nadda.

 

[Andylusion]

These are dumb statements. Who does not depend on purchasing power? Name the country, anywhere in the world, at any time in history, that does not, or did not, depend on..... purchasing power?

Do you understand the distinction between purchases made with cash versus purchases made on credit, especially when the buyer does not get paid enough to cover basic monthly living expenses and using a credit card becomes mandatory?

The State of the American Debt Slaves, Q1 2020: How Are Consumers Positioned Going into the Crisis?

Not true.

Yes, people are borrowing more. But you are making up that it is because people are not paid enough. You don't know that. You are just making an assumption to fit your ideology.

And all I have to do to prove that, is ask... are they still paying for cable TV? Are they still buying coffee from Starbucks?

And if using a credit card is mandatory, how is it that millions of people don't use credit cards?

I don't use credit cards. I barely made $30K last year. And I have zero debt at all. How is that possible? Am I with my $30K income, now the 1%?

 

[BertramN]

The GOP need only keep telling the conservatives that the U.S. is #1 and keep them singing "God Bless America", and the right-wingers will goosestep behind the impeached president trump and the Republican Party all the way to a Fourth Reich.


.

 

[Andylusion]

n 2007 crash, and during the 2020 crash, the top 1% lost tons of their "share" of the wealth.

Please name the poor or middle class people that were spontaneously better off?

You can't. Because there were none.

There's no shortage of parasites who became much richer from the losses suffered by the poor and middle class:

Profiting off pain: Trump confidant cashed in on housing crisis | Reveal

"One of President Donald Trump’s closest friends and confidants took advantage of the Great Recession to build an unprecedented real estate business that makes him tantamount to a modern-day slumlord – buying up homes, bumping up rents and allowing the properties to fall into disrepair.

"Southern California billionaire Thomas J. Barrack is the mastermind behind the scheme, founding a company five years ago that has taken 31,000 single-family homes off the housing market and calling it “the greatest thing I’ve ever done.”

"Barrack, like other close Trump associates, now stands to cash in on looser financial regulations, which he is in a position to shape."

The problem with that, is that if they didn't cash in.... name one person anywhere, that would be better off?

Would you, earning less, make me more wealthy? Would this guy losing a million dollars, turn my Mercury into a Lexus?

Again... name one person who would be better off if the wealthy had less wealth.

And if they would be better off... then why were they not better off?

The Worldâs 10 Richest Billionaires Lose $38 Billion On Coronavirus-Spurred âBlack Mondayâ

Plunging global markets on Monday drilled away at the fortunes of the world's richest people, as falling oil prices and bond yields marked the latest blow to the longest bull market on record.

www.forbes.com

Top 1% lost a collective $38 Billion. Where are all these poor people that are now millionaires?

 

[Andylusion]

The GOP need only keep telling the conservatives that the U.S. is #1 and keep them singing "God Bless America", and the right-wingers will goosestep behind the impeached president trump and the Republican Party all the way to a Fourth Reich.


.

No, but I do enjoy watching the mindless left-wingers freaking out non-stop . Please continue! I am enjoying this.

 

[Andylusion]

when you lose a job, or if your income dramatically falls... which works better for your family? Dramatically increasing spending until you are bankrupt and lose your house? Or cutting spending, until you can live within your budget and survive?

Are you confusing an individual family's budget with a sovereign currency provider? Governments can create money; individuals can not. Do you grasp that distinction?

They can create paper, yes. That doesn't actually improve anything. Zimbabwe did that, and the result was economic ruins for the government, and the country.

Same in Venezuela, and any country that has tried that. So I'm not sure what point you were trying to make, but it's a bad one.

Yes, the government can print more money and destroy itself.... still not a good idea to spend endlessly during a recession.

 

[Andylusion]

Because it has worked every single time it has ever been tried, in human history?

Name one time reducing government spending during a global pandemic/recession has worked.

Sure the 1920s. There is actually a couple of examples, such as after WW2 where they dramatically reduced spending, and we had a recession at the end of the war, and the result was a huge recovery that went into the 1950s.

Another example would be the 2008 crash, where Iceland cut government spending, and had one of the fastest recoveries in Europe.

However, the better example would be the 1920s, where we had a very very steep recession, much larger than that of 2008, and the government cut spending, and cut taxes.

The result was the roaring 20s.

So there are many examples of this.