Democracy and Freedom

A lot of people (the OWS crowd, for example) are calling for it though. And more and more people seem to think democracy should trump constitutionality.
I have not heard that. For what reason are they calling for a direct democracy?

Yes that's a new one on me, personally I would just like to make lobbyists as they are now a thing of the past, that alone would do a lot to bring things closer to a satisfactory balance.

Lobbying your Representatives is legal and Constitutional. To take that away from the People would be illegal and a violation of their rights. I do agree the big money Lobbyists have too much of an advantage but they do have that right to lobby their Representatives. Freedom,Liberty,and the Constitution trumps all in the end.
 
I have not heard that. For what reason are they calling for a direct democracy?

Yes that's a new one on me, personally I would just like to make lobbyists as they are now a thing of the past, that alone would do a lot to bring things closer to a satisfactory balance.


Wow, and now you want to change the First Amendment.

Wow still looking for a fight? LOL OK explain how lobbying activities and their mountains of secret bribery cash are healthy for our country?
 
I have not heard that. For what reason are they calling for a direct democracy?

Yes that's a new one on me, personally I would just like to make lobbyists as they are now a thing of the past, that alone would do a lot to bring things closer to a satisfactory balance.

Lobbying your Representatives is legal and Constitutional. To take that away from the People would be illegal and a violation of their rights. I do agree the big money Lobbyists have too much of an advantage but they do have that right to lobby their Representatives. Freedom,Liberty,and the Constitution trumps all in the end.

I agree but make it all 100% transparent, no more secrets, no more backroom deals.
 
Yes that's a new one on me, personally I would just like to make lobbyists as they are now a thing of the past, that alone would do a lot to bring things closer to a satisfactory balance.

Lobbying your Representatives is legal and Constitutional. To take that away from the People would be illegal and a violation of their rights. I do agree the big money Lobbyists have too much of an advantage but they do have that right to lobby their Representatives. Freedom,Liberty,and the Constitution trumps all in the end.

I agree but make it all 100% transparent, no more secrets, no more backroom deals.

I could agree to that as long as it doesn't infringe on Citizens' privacy rights. I would have to see the Legislation.
 
As far as I am concerned any group attempting to shape government policy or elect a politician has no privacy rights.
 
Yes that's a new one on me, personally I would just like to make lobbyists as they are now a thing of the past, that alone would do a lot to bring things closer to a satisfactory balance.

Lobbying your Representatives is legal and Constitutional. To take that away from the People would be illegal and a violation of their rights. I do agree the big money Lobbyists have too much of an advantage but they do have that right to lobby their Representatives. Freedom,Liberty,and the Constitution trumps all in the end.

I agree but make it all 100% transparent, no more secrets, no more backroom deals.


Gee, to the best of my knowledge all the votes in congress are public and campaign contributions are reported.
 
As far as I am concerned any group attempting to shape government policy or elect a politician has no privacy rights.

Well all Citizens attempt to do that no? That's the way the system was set up. We all have the right to lobby our representatives. That's what Freedom & Liberty is all about. You just have to take the good with the bad on this stuff. It's like so many other sticky issues regarding Freedom and our Constitution.
 
As far as I am concerned any group attempting to shape government policy or elect a politician has no privacy rights.

Check this link out. It really is very interesting...
We Are A Republic Not A Democracy | Conservative Outpost

Like I said before, accepting that we have no collective power and that the big money insiders run things is too much like giving up, the people pushing this defeatist attitude of democracy as an evil are no different then the "Good Germans" who passively allowed fascism to take root in their country. Not too long ago talk like this was considered heresy to Americans but we have slid so far to the right that people are actually discussing fascism as a good thing, makes me sad for our country that so many have forgotten and hopefully we will not have to fight another world war to remind ourselves what happens when political and economic power lies in too few hands.
 
This sort of issue arising out of campaign finance reform is one reason I would like to see direct democracy replace representative democracy. There is no way that direct democracy can be corrupted by money, so no campaign finance regulations would be necessary.

Those who say "we are a republic not a democracy" are really saying "we are an aristocratic republic not a democratic republic." I emphatically disagree, or at least I disagree that that is what we're SUPPOSED to be.
 
We are suppose to be a Republic not a Democracy.

We are supposed to be a democratic republic. Those who say things like the above, as if there were a conflict between being a republic and being a democracy, are revealing their support for aristocracy, because a republic that is not democratic is automatically aristocratic -- there is no third alternative.

Excuse me ding dong, but what historical fact did you rely upon for that conclusion?!?!?!?!?

.
 
As far as I am concerned any group attempting to shape government policy or elect a politician has no privacy rights.

Check this link out. It really is very interesting...
We Are A Republic Not A Democracy | Conservative Outpost

Like I said before, accepting that we have no collective power and that the big money insiders run things is too much like giving up, the people pushing this defeatist attitude of democracy as an evil are no different then the "Good Germans" who passively allowed fascism to take root in their country. Not too long ago talk like this was considered heresy to Americans but we have slid so far to the right that people are actually discussing fascism as a good thing, makes me sad for our country that so many have forgotten and hopefully we will not have to fight another world war to remind ourselves what happens when political and economic power lies in too few hands.

We are all lobbyists. We all want the Government to do what we want. And we're free to do that because of our Constitution. There is nothing wrong with lobbying your representatives. It's the American Way. Freedom & Liberty can be very messy. You often have to put up with things you don't like. This certainly isn't the only issue we see that with. You really do have to take the good with the bad on these things.
 
Check this link out. It really is very interesting...
We Are A Republic Not A Democracy | Conservative Outpost

Like I said before, accepting that we have no collective power and that the big money insiders run things is too much like giving up, the people pushing this defeatist attitude of democracy as an evil are no different then the "Good Germans" who passively allowed fascism to take root in their country. Not too long ago talk like this was considered heresy to Americans but we have slid so far to the right that people are actually discussing fascism as a good thing, makes me sad for our country that so many have forgotten and hopefully we will not have to fight another world war to remind ourselves what happens when political and economic power lies in too few hands.

We are all lobbyists. We all want the Government to do what we want. And we're free to do that because of our Constitution. There is nothing wrong with lobbying your representatives. It's the American Way. Freedom & Liberty can be very messy. You often have to put up with things you don't like. This certainly isn't the only issue we see that with. You really do have to take the good with the bad on these things.

What are you even talking about? We all know how insulated our leaders are from our plight by a legion of K street whores looking to get special treatment for the special interests paying them. It's those people I want to get a handle on.
 
what historical fact did you rely upon for that conclusion [that we are supposed to be a democratic republic]

These:

"The House of Representatives shall be composed of Members chosen every second Year by the People of the several States . . ."

"The Senate of the United States shall be composed of two Senators from each State, elected by the people thereof, for six years"

U.S. Constitution, Article I Section 1 and Amendment 17.

When the legislature is elected by the people, that is the very definition of a democratic republic. The fact behind my conclusion is simply that the Constitution calls for it.
 
We are all lobbyists. We all want the Government to do what we want. And we're free to do that because of our Constitution.

In theory, yes. In practice, no. In practice, only those with a lot of money behind their demands have any effective influence on government. That fact means that we are, in practice, an aristocratic republic and not a democratic one.

This is not the way it's supposed to be. The government is supposed to respond to the will of the voters -- and to the lobbying of the voters -- not to the influence of money.
 
We are all lobbyists. We all want the Government to do what we want. And we're free to do that because of our Constitution.

In theory, yes. In practice, no. In practice, only those with a lot of money behind their demands have any effective influence on government. That fact means that we are, in practice, an aristocratic republic and not a democratic one.

This is not the way it's supposed to be. The government is supposed to respond to the will of the voters -- and to the lobbying of the voters -- not to the influence of money.

Yes but the lobbyists are voters and Citizens too. They do have the right to lobby representatives. It's just the way it is. You also have the right to lobby any represtnative you like as well. Lobbying to get what you want from Government is as American as Apple Pie. Like i said earlier,Freedom & Liberty can be messy. It is what it is.
 
I don't think anyone is advocating pure democracy as our system of government but I am puzzled by those who seem to think that we presently have too much democracy in our system.
 
We are all lobbyists. We all want the Government to do what we want. And we're free to do that because of our Constitution.

In theory, yes. In practice, no. In practice, only those with a lot of money behind their demands have any effective influence on government. That fact means that we are, in practice, an aristocratic republic and not a democratic one.

This is not the way it's supposed to be. The government is supposed to respond to the will of the voters -- and to the lobbying of the voters -- not to the influence of money.

Yes but the lobbyists are voters and Citizens too. They do have the right to lobby representatives. It's just the way it is. You also have the right to lobby any represtnative you like as well. Lobbying to get what you want from Government is as American as Apple Pie. Like i said earlier,Freedom & Liberty can be messy. It is what it is.
And many citizens do lobby...it's too bad that the politicians payy too much attention though to those with money rather than the rank and file citizen that only has the power of the vote. ;) :eusa_whistle:
 
what historical fact did you rely upon for that conclusion [that we are supposed to be a democratic republic]

These:

"The House of Representatives shall be composed of Members chosen every second Year by the People of the several States . . ."

.

HUH? WTF?

READ THIS INSTEAD:


We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness"


So my rights do not depend upon the discretion of democratic majorities or 5 to 4 SCOTUS decisions

Capisce?


.
 

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