Did the Mob Kill JFK?

[Midnight Marauder]

I am. Just differently than you apparently.

You are dismissing the simple in favor of the complex. That's the opposite of Occam's razor.

I disagree.

You believe that the coincidence of the motorcade passing by Oswald's place of employment is more complex than any of the convoluted conspiracy theories?

 

[LA RAM FAN]

On DSC right now (and 11 pm EST), a new document of sorts is being shown about the evidence that JFK was in fact killed by the Mob.

The Who, The Why, The What, etc all answered. Although it is forty six years later, it is good to see the truth finally emerging. Though for anyone following some of my posts here, I have talked about several times about how the Mob was behind the killing of JFK.

as much as I am thrilled to see someone willing enough to make a thread about JFK-"theres not anywhere near as much talk about that subject here as there SHOULD be," couldnt you have posted this on the other JFK thread thats been going for some time? and to answer your question,yes the mob was involved but a low minor level.they worked in harmony with the CIA and mossad to pull it off with the CIA being the main orchestraters behind it all.

Yeah, they wanted Castro out more than JFK and Bobby did. Therefore, they would KILL JFK to stop the coup.

Great logic. NOT.

uh after the disasterous bay of pigs invasion,JFK threatend to split the CIA into a thousand pieces and scatter it into the four winds were his words aftet that.He was going to get rid of the CIA cause he saw how they were an evil and out of control organization they really were.the CIA had lied to him and tried to trick him into ordering an all out invasion.after that,he got wise and stopped listening to the advise of the military and leaned on his aides and Bobby closely. they had FAR more to gain than anybody in his elimination.stupid logic saying they didnt.

 

[Midnight Marauder]

as much as I am thrilled to see someone willing enough to make a thread about JFK-"theres not anywhere near as much talk about that subject here as there SHOULD be," couldnt you have posted this on the other JFK thread thats been going for some time? and to answer your question,yes the mob was involved but a low minor level.they worked in harmony with the CIA and mossad to pull it off with the CIA being the main orchestraters behind it all.

Yeah, they wanted Castro out more than JFK and Bobby did. Therefore, they would KILL JFK to stop the coup.

Great logic. NOT.

uh after the disasterous bay of pigs invasion,JFK threatend to split the CIA into a thousand pieces and scatter it into the four winds were his words aftet that.He was going to get rid of the CIA cause he saw how they were an evil and out of control organization they really were.the CIA had lied to him and tried to trick him into ordering an all out invasion.after that,he got wise and stopped listening to the advise of the military and leaned on his aides and Bobby closely. they had FAR more to gain than anybody in his elimination.stupid logic saying they didnt.

:yawn:

Utter nonsense.

 

[theHawk]

On DSC right now (and 11 pm EST), a new document of sorts is being shown about the evidence that JFK was in fact killed by the Mob.

The Who, The Why, The What, etc all answered. Although it is forty six years later, it is good to see the truth finally emerging. Though for anyone following some of my posts here, I have talked about several times about how the Mob was behind the killing of JFK.

I can't remember what show or channel it was on cable, but I saw one a while back where they recreated the shooting. They used the same type of vehicle, and got those special life-like manikins that simulate flesh and bone. They built a tower and used the same exact rifle model Oswald used, they set everything up so each shot would be fired at the specific angle and distance according to the computer recreation of it. Each wound corresponded with the real life wounds, they even had a bullet fragment and change direction after hitting bone material. After seeing those bullets in slow motion it seems totally plausable that Oswald did the shooting all by himself.

As for his motives, I doubt the CIA would rely on a loonbat communist defector even if they wanted to off JFK. Lets also not forget Oswald went on a rampage starting in April when he tried to kill General Walker, a "right-winger" that JFK fired. He had been arrested for several other things and had already made headlines with his defection. He was hardly someone the CIA would approach to carry out such a sinister scenario.

 

[LA RAM FAN]

Yeah, they wanted Castro out more than JFK and Bobby did. Therefore, they would KILL JFK to stop the coup.

Great logic. NOT.

uh after the disasterous bay of pigs invasion,JFK threatend to split the CIA into a thousand pieces and scatter it into the four winds were his words aftet that.He was going to get rid of the CIA cause he saw how they were an evil and out of control organization they really were.the CIA had lied to him and tried to trick him into ordering an all out invasion.after that,he got wise and stopped listening to the advise of the military and leaned on his aides and Bobby closely. they had FAR more to gain than anybody in his elimination.stupid logic saying they didnt.

:yawn:

Utter nonsense.

see thats the patheitc posts you ALWAYS use when confroted with irrefutable facts you cant refute.your obviously in denial like so many others here.If you werent so ignorant and actually did research,you would know thats true and you would know that during the HSCA investigation,one of the members on that council,senator gaston fonzi,resigned in disgust from that commission because they ignored evidence of CIA involvement and had no interest in pursuing leads that pointed towards government involvement.

He wrote a book about it that documented it all called THE LAST INVESTIGATION. Funny how BOTH investigations into the JFK assassinations were a joke.The warren commission and the house select committe on assassinations that took place in the 1970's.They were a joke in the fact that both times,a member on both of those commissions resigned in disgust since both times they ignored evidence and facts that did not fit their official versions.Hale Boggs resigned in disgust from the warren commission cause of how they ignored evidence that did not fir their version of events.

 

[LA RAM FAN]

On DSC right now (and 11 pm EST), a new document of sorts is being shown about the evidence that JFK was in fact killed by the Mob.

The Who, The Why, The What, etc all answered. Although it is forty six years later, it is good to see the truth finally emerging. Though for anyone following some of my posts here, I have talked about several times about how the Mob was behind the killing of JFK.

I can't remember what show or channel it was on cable, but I saw one a while back where they recreated the shooting. They used the same type of vehicle, and got those special life-like manikins that simulate flesh and bone. They built a tower and used the same exact rifle model Oswald used, they set everything up so each shot would be fired at the specific angle and distance according to the computer recreation of it. Each wound corresponded with the real life wounds, they even had a bullet fragment and change direction after hitting bone material. After seeing those bullets in slow motion it seems totally plausable that Oswald did the shooting all by himself.

As for his motives, I doubt the CIA would rely on a loonbat communist defector even if they wanted to off JFK. Lets also not forget Oswald went on a rampage starting in April when he tried to kill General Walker, a "right-winger" that JFK fired. He had been arrested for several other things and had already made headlines with his defection. He was hardly someone the CIA would approach to carry out such a sinister scenario.

Except they ignored the evidence and witness testimonys of people on the grassy knoll who saw a rifelman fire a shot from the picket fence.all propaganda by the government.The best show they did on it was on the history channel called THE MEN WHO KILLED KENNEDY which proved beyond a doubt there were multiple riflemen and at least one other shooter behind the picket fence..

I played with the idea that it was the mob for many years and stongly considered it but thats impossible that they alone did it.They didnt have the power to set up oswald like they did,sending him to Russia and back like that and to get the secret service and the 112th army to stand down that day against the violent objections of the military commander and they sure as hell could not have controlled the media to propagate the liek that oswald was the lone assassin like they did.It was definetly the CIA,no ifs, ands or buts about it with the mob at a very minor role involved.

 

[Ryan]

You actually, truly believe the Mob would hire two cornflakes like Oswald and Ruby?

I do not categorically dismiss the possibility.

fwiw: If we could ever know for sure the absolute truth, I would MUCH more prefer that truth to be that Oswald acted alone. But I'm not a huge believer in extraordinary coincidence, that is all.

Apply Occam's Razor.

And be sure to include a rifle and scope that could not be zeroed, in other words, the point of aim and the point of impact did not and could not be aligned. Be sure to include the shooting time line that could not be reproduced by the WC expert shooters or the CBS rifle expert Howard Donahue's viewpoint. Be sure to include the near impossible timeline between TSBD manager Roy Truly and Officer Baker, who ran into the TSBD, before the shooting stopped and spotted LHO causually buying a Coke in the lunch room after pulling off a string of shooting that no other shooter has been able to reproduce, ever.

Applying "Occam's Razor," the demand for such extraordinary events to align argue againt the lone gunman theory.

 

[Ryan]

On DSC right now (and 11 pm EST), a new document of sorts is being shown about the evidence that JFK was in fact killed by the Mob.

The Who, The Why, The What, etc all answered. Although it is forty six years later, it is good to see the truth finally emerging. Though for anyone following some of my posts here, I have talked about several times about how the Mob was behind the killing of JFK.

I can't remember what show or channel it was on cable, but I saw one a while back where they recreated the shooting. They used the same type of vehicle, and got those special life-like manikins that simulate flesh and bone. They built a tower and used the same exact rifle model Oswald used, they set everything up so each shot would be fired at the specific angle and distance according to the computer recreation of it. Each wound corresponded with the real life wounds, they even had a bullet fragment and change direction after hitting bone material. After seeing those bullets in slow motion it seems totally plausable that Oswald did the shooting all by himself.

As for his motives, I doubt the CIA would rely on a loonbat communist defector even if they wanted to off JFK. Lets also not forget Oswald went on a rampage starting in April when he tried to kill General Walker, a "right-winger" that JFK fired. He had been arrested for several other things and had already made headlines with his defection. He was hardly someone the CIA would approach to carry out such a sinister scenario.

I saw a film like that, it was "JFK; Inside the Target Car." A good fim on terminal ballistics.

 

[Ryan]

I guess I understand your point, but I think you waaaaaay overstate it. I think that it only applies to a very very small minority. The other 300 million odd people in this country take much greater comfort in believing it was a lone, isolated incident than not.

That's completely against human nature.

We want to balance the scales, cannot accept on an emotional level that a weak, lone loser such as Oswald could take down the most powerful and most protected man on the planet. So to balance those scales, we have to give much more weight to Oswald in the form of this massive conspiracy, evidence be damned.

When we eschew emotion and look at it critically, the truth is all too apparent and evident. However, it's a vast majority in this country who is unable to do that, as the polls show year after year..... The vast majority still believe there was a massive conspiracy, because they are feeling instead of thinking.

The vast majority believe it was a massive conspiracy? That's news to me.

I do not believe it was a "massive" consipiracy at all. However, when I look at the evidence and circumstance I conclude that it's more likely that Oswald had help than did not and emotions has nothing to do with it. It doesn't take a massive conspiracy for the mob to hire an already disenfranchised former marine sniper to do their bidding. Nor does it take a massive conspiracy for them to then have him shot to keep him from talking. IMO, those that categorically dismiss this as even being remotely possible are the one's that are allowing fear and emotion to cloud their objectivity. Just because the evidence indicates he acted alone on that day does not preclude the possibility of others being involved in the planning.

Just to clarify, Oswald was not a Marine Sniper, Oswald a poor shot by Marine Corps standards. Oswald shot Sharp Shooter in boot camp and barely qualified as a Marksman when he shot at his duty station.

 

[rightwinger]

That's completely against human nature.

We want to balance the scales, cannot accept on an emotional level that a weak, lone loser such as Oswald could take down the most powerful and most protected man on the planet. So to balance those scales, we have to give much more weight to Oswald in the form of this massive conspiracy, evidence be damned.

When we eschew emotion and look at it critically, the truth is all too apparent and evident. However, it's a vast majority in this country who is unable to do that, as the polls show year after year..... The vast majority still believe there was a massive conspiracy, because they are feeling instead of thinking.

The vast majority believe it was a massive conspiracy? That's news to me.

I do not believe it was a "massive" consipiracy at all. However, when I look at the evidence and circumstance I conclude that it's more likely that Oswald had help than did not and emotions has nothing to do with it. It doesn't take a massive conspiracy for the mob to hire an already disenfranchised former marine sniper to do their bidding. Nor does it take a massive conspiracy for them to then have him shot to keep him from talking. IMO, those that categorically dismiss this as even being remotely possible are the one's that are allowing fear and emotion to cloud their objectivity. Just because the evidence indicates he acted alone on that day does not preclude the possibility of others being involved in the planning.

Just to clarify, Oswald was not a Marine Sniper, Oswald a poor shot by Marine Corps standards. Oswald shot Sharp Shooter in boot camp and barely qualified as a Marksman when he shot at his duty station.

It was not a difficult shot. I have yet to meet a Marine who claims he could not have made that shot

 

[Terral]

Hi Dog:

You don't believe the Mob was involved?

No! The Mob had nothing to do with the murder of JFK. He was killed by the Rothschild-owned Secret Service . . .

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DI70I0jKFw8"]Rothschild-Owned Secret Service Murdered JFK[/ame]

. . . just like Abraham Lincoln:

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GFIlX0HjkmI"]House Of Rothschild Versus U.S. Presidents[/ame]

Rothschild/Rockefeller (Owners of the FED = Chapter 3) are also responsible for the 9/11 Attacks (my 911Truth Blog) 'and' responsible for orchestrating the current U.S./Global Meltdown 'and' also responsible for the Rothschild/Rockefeller Eugenics (link) H1N1 Genocidal Monster (my Topic) that is coming to murder . . . you . . .

GL,

Terral

 

[LA RAM FAN]

Hi Dog:

You don't believe the Mob was involved?

No! The Mob had nothing to do with the murder of JFK. He was killed by the Rothschild-owned Secret Service . . .

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DI70I0jKFw8"]Rothschild-Owned Secret Service Murdered JFK[/ame]

. . . just like Abraham Lincoln:

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GFIlX0HjkmI"]House Of Rothschild Versus U.S. Presidents[/ame]

Rothschild/Rockefeller (Owners of the FED = Chapter 3) are also responsible for the 9/11 Attacks (my 911Truth Blog) 'and' responsible for orchestrating the current U.S./Global Meltdown 'and' also responsible for the Rothschild/Rockefeller Eugenics (link) H1N1 Genocidal Monster (my Topic) that is coming to murder . . . you . . .

GL,

Terral

great post Terral and thanks for sharing that with us.the paralells in both the kennedy assassination and 9/11 that proves it was an inside job is in BOTH cases,the protection was not there and they were both extremely incompetent that day yet despite all the incompetence in both occassions,NOBODY got fired or disiplined for their incompetence when there should have been multiple heads rolling and several court martials.The colonel who placed the call to the 112th army intelligence to stand down that day despite the boisterous objections of the 112th army commander,was not court martialed for that or disiplined one bit at all.The kennedy assassination was the event that made people stop trusting their government.Like somone posted before,70% of the population no longer believes the offical version.as we both know,the CIA had more to gain than anybody by his assassination.

 

[LA RAM FAN]

On DSC right now (and 11 pm EST), a new document of sorts is being shown about the evidence that JFK was in fact killed by the Mob.

The Who, The Why, The What, etc all answered. Although it is forty six years later, it is good to see the truth finally emerging. Though for anyone following some of my posts here, I have talked about several times about how the Mob was behind the killing of JFK.

I can't remember what show or channel it was on cable, but I saw one a while back where they recreated the shooting. They used the same type of vehicle, and got those special life-like manikins that simulate flesh and bone. They built a tower and used the same exact rifle model Oswald used, they set everything up so each shot would be fired at the specific angle and distance according to the computer recreation of it. Each wound corresponded with the real life wounds, they even had a bullet fragment and change direction after hitting bone material. After seeing those bullets in slow motion it seems totally plausable that Oswald did the shooting all by himself.

As for his motives, I doubt the CIA would rely on a loonbat communist defector even if they wanted to off JFK. Lets also not forget Oswald went on a rampage starting in April when he tried to kill General Walker, a "right-winger" that JFK fired. He had been arrested for several other things and had already made headlines with his defection. He was hardly someone the CIA would approach to carry out such a sinister scenario.

I saw a film like that, it was "JFK; Inside the Target Car." A good fim on terminal ballistics.

yeah thats a great film but you should just post this stuff over on the other JFK thread since THAT thread is the truth and this thread is bullshit.

 

[Terral]

Hi Inside Job:

great post Terral and thanks for sharing that with us.the paralells in both the kennedy assassination and 9/11 that proves it was an inside job is in BOTH cases,the protection was not there and they were both extremely incompetent that day yet despite all the incompetence in both occassions,NOBODY got fired or disiplined for their incompetence when there should have been multiple heads rolling and several court martials.

If you read through the testimony of Alan Wallace (link = Foam 161 on-station fireman), then you will realize that Secret Service Personnel were present at the Pentagon during the 9:31:39 AM Missile Strike. The Secret Service knows very well that the Pentagon was 'first' attacked at 9:31 AM (my Topic) and NOT at the 9:38 AM Official Cover Story Time. Therefore, the Secret Service is part of all of these related Inside-Job Murders!

GL,

Terral

 

[LA RAM FAN]

Hi Inside Job:

great post Terral and thanks for sharing that with us.the paralells in both the kennedy assassination and 9/11 that proves it was an inside job is in BOTH cases,the protection was not there and they were both extremely incompetent that day yet despite all the incompetence in both occassions,NOBODY got fired or disiplined for their incompetence when there should have been multiple heads rolling and several court martials.

If you read through the testimony of Alan Wallace (link = Foam 161 on-station fireman), then you will realize that Secret Service Personnel were present at the Pentagon during the 9:31:39 AM Missile Strike. The Secret Service knows very well that the Pentagon was 'first' attacked at 9:31 AM (my Topic) and NOT at the 9:38 AM Official Cover Story Time. Therefore, the Secret Service is part of all of these related Inside-Job Murders!

GL,

Terral

wow very interesting,thanks for that tidbit of information.a lot of people here dont know this or dont care and wont research it,but the driver of the limo on nov 22nd 1963 Bill Greer,had strong connections and ties to the CIA as im sure you already knew? Kennedy was the last TRUE president we had.He wasnt a puppet for the military industrial complex "that Eisenhower warned the american people to be aware of in his farewell address speech." He was stepping on some very powerful toes in high positions of power within the government as you well know,that was his undoing.Thats why every presidnet since him has stayed alive is because they have just been puppets for the military industrial complex.

 

[Ryan]

The vast majority believe it was a massive conspiracy? That's news to me.

I do not believe it was a "massive" consipiracy at all. However, when I look at the evidence and circumstance I conclude that it's more likely that Oswald had help than did not and emotions has nothing to do with it. It doesn't take a massive conspiracy for the mob to hire an already disenfranchised former marine sniper to do their bidding. Nor does it take a massive conspiracy for them to then have him shot to keep him from talking. IMO, those that categorically dismiss this as even being remotely possible are the one's that are allowing fear and emotion to cloud their objectivity. Just because the evidence indicates he acted alone on that day does not preclude the possibility of others being involved in the planning.

Just to clarify, Oswald was not a Marine Sniper, Oswald a poor shot by Marine Corps standards. Oswald shot Sharp Shooter in boot camp and barely qualified as a Marksman when he shot at his duty station.

It was not a difficult shot. I have yet to meet a Marine who claims he could not have made that shot

I answered this same statement on another thread you were posting on and it was probably in response to you. I am a former Marine that shot several expert qualifications, sniper trained and qualified and am telling you right now that the string of shots was very difficult. I named Craig Roberts former Marine sniper and Police Sniper and the very best name in military sniping Carlos Hathcock that both explained how difficult the shot was under the best circumstances. Anyone including former and current Marines that claim the shot was easy are either talking smack or are ignorant of what is involved.

The Mannlicher Carcano and scope were not and could not be sighted in and I provided the WC interviews to back up these facts. I will post these facts on this thread when I get the chance.

I also posted the WC shooting trials at stationary targets 30 feet off the ground not 60 feet like in Dealey Plaza where 5 top rated NRA grade Master shooters never came close to reproducing the string of fire attributed to LHO under far less demanding circumstances. The CBS trails was not much better The rifle could not make these shots in anyone's hand and Oswald could not have made these shots with any rifle in his hands.

Provide some facts on who reproduced these shots attributed to LHO or the lone gunman theory dies at the starting gate once again.

 

[rightwinger]

The goal of Discovery Channel's Nov. 16th special, "JFK: Inside the Target Car," was to explore the theories and determine where the shots most likely came from using modern forensic science.

A mock-up of the Dallas, Texas crime scene was set up, including the depository, the "grassy knoll," and other nearby landmarks. Artificial surrogates of Kennedy were placed in a car. Sharpshooters then shot the surrogates from the model depository, the grassy knoll, and four other plausible locations.

Schliebe, along with Tom Bevel, an independent expert forensic investigator, were brought in to examine the simulated crime scene. Both scientists had no idea what the experiment was for or that it was a reenactment of the JFK assassination.

The two experts found a simulated gunshot would to the head that closely matched the wound Kennedy suffered. Most of the simulated body material had spattered forward into the car, consistent with a shot that entered the back of the head and exited toward the front. There was some back-spatter — material that flew back in the opposite direction of the bullet's trajectory — but not much.

The general lack of back spatter and the preponderance of spatter in another direction are two of the clues, among others, that the investigators used to pinpoint the origin of the shots.

Tech puts JFK conspiracy theories to rest - Discovery.com- msnbc.com

 

[Andrew2382]

George Bush killed JFK

 

[rightwinger]

The FBI tests of the Carcano's accuracy showed:

1) FBI firearms expert Robert A. Frazier testified that "It is a very accurate weapon. The targets we fired show that."[29] From 15 yards (14 m), all three bullets in a test firing landed approximately 2 1/2 inches high, and 1-inch (25 mm) to the right, in the area about the size of a dime.[30] At 100 yards (91 m), the test shots landed 2 1/2 to 5 inches (130 mm) high, within a 3 to 5-inch (130 mm) circle. Frazier testified that the scope's high variation would actually work in the shooter's favor: with a target moving away from the shooter, no "lead" correction would have been necessary to follow the target. "At that range, at that distance, 175 feet (53 m) to 265 feet (81 m),[31] with this rifle and that telescopic sight, I would not have allowed any lead — I would not have made any correction for lead merely to hit a target of that size."

2) The rifle was unable to be "sighted-in", using the scope, without the installation of 2 metal shims (small metal plates) which were not present when the rifle arrived for testing, and were never found.[32] Frazier testified that there was "a rather severe scrape" on the scope tube, and that the sight could have been bent or damaged. He was unable to determine when the defect occurred before the FBI received the rifle and scope on November 27, 1963.

Ballistics Research Laboratory tests
In an effort to test the rifle under conditions which simulated those which prevailed during the assassination, the Infantry Weapons Evaluation Branch of the U.S. Army's Ballistics Research Laboratory had expert riflemen fire the assassination weapon from a tower at three silhouette targets at distances of 175, 240, and 265 feet (81 m).[33] Using the assassination rifle mounted with the telescopic sight, three marksmen, rated as master by the National Rifle Association, each fired two series of three shots. In the first series the firers required time spans of 4.6, 6.75, and 8.25 seconds respectively. On the second series they required 5.15, 6.45, and 7 seconds. The marksmen took as much time as they wanted for the first target at 175 feet (53 m), and all hit the target. For the first four attempts, the firers missed the second shot at 240 feet (73 m) by several inches. Five of the six shots hit the third target at 265 feet (81 m), the distance of President Kennedy from the sixth floor window when he was struck in the head.[34] None of the marksmen had any practice with the assassination weapon beforehand except to work the bolt.

John F. Kennedy assassination rifle - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Ryan]

The FBI tests of the Carcano's accuracy showed:

1) FBI firearms expert Robert A. Frazier testified that "It is a very accurate weapon. The targets we fired show that."[29] From 15 yards (14 m), all three bullets in a test firing landed approximately 2 1/2 inches high, and 1-inch (25 mm) to the right, in the area about the size of a dime.[30] At 100 yards (91 m), the test shots landed 2 1/2 to 5 inches (130 mm) high, within a 3 to 5-inch (130 mm) circle. Frazier testified that the scope's high variation would actually work in the shooter's favor: with a target moving away from the shooter, no "lead" correction would have been necessary to follow the target. "At that range, at that distance, 175 feet (53 m) to 265 feet (81 m),[31] with this rifle and that telescopic sight, I would not have allowed any lead — I would not have made any correction for lead merely to hit a target of that size."

2) The rifle was unable to be "sighted-in", using the scope, without the installation of 2 metal shims (small metal plates) which were not present when the rifle arrived for testing, and were never found.[32] Frazier testified that there was "a rather severe scrape" on the scope tube, and that the sight could have been bent or damaged. He was unable to determine when the defect occurred before the FBI received the rifle and scope on November 27, 1963.

Ballistics Research Laboratory tests
In an effort to test the rifle under conditions which simulated those which prevailed during the assassination, the Infantry Weapons Evaluation Branch of the U.S. Army's Ballistics Research Laboratory had expert riflemen fire the assassination weapon from a tower at three silhouette targets at distances of 175, 240, and 265 feet (81 m).[33] Using the assassination rifle mounted with the telescopic sight, three marksmen, rated as master by the National Rifle Association, each fired two series of three shots. In the first series the firers required time spans of 4.6, 6.75, and 8.25 seconds respectively. On the second series they required 5.15, 6.45, and 7 seconds. The marksmen took as much time as they wanted for the first target at 175 feet (53 m), and all hit the target. For the first four attempts, the firers missed the second shot at 240 feet (73 m) by several inches. Five of the six shots hit the third target at 265 feet (81 m), the distance of President Kennedy from the sixth floor window when he was struck in the head.[34] None of the marksmen had any practice with the assassination weapon beforehand except to work the bolt.

John F. Kennedy assassination rifle - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I am reading from the REPORT OF THE WARREN COMMISSION ON THE ASSASSINATION OF PRESIDENT KENNEDY, The New York Times Edition.

"The three experts each fired three shots from the weapon at 15 yards in 6, 7, and 9, seconds, and one of these agents, Robert Frazier fired two series of three shots at 25 yards in 4.6 and 4.8 seconds. At 15 yards each man's shot landed within the size of a dime. The shots fired by Frazier at the range of 25 yards landed within an area of 2 inches and 5 inches respectively. Frazier later fired four groups of three shots at a distance 100 yards in 5.9, 6.2, 5.6 and 6.5 seconds. Each series of of three shots landed in an areas ranging in diameter from three to 5 inches."

This testing is irrelevant since Frazier and the two FBI men whose results were not recorded were firing at stationary targets that barely fall within the time range established by the WC. A dime size group at 15 yards is inconclusive at 100 yards a 3 to 5 inch group is poor accuracy even in 1963 but since the tests are conducted within a time frame maybe the weapon would fire better if the shooters took their time. Instead though, the WC is trying to establish data where the Dealey Plaza time frames are made believable except these tests are under very different circumstances.

The WIKI point #2 is total bogus. Ronald Simmons, Chief of the Infantry Weapons Evaluation Branch of the Ballistics Research Labratory of the Department of the Army states, "they could not sight the weapon in," he explains "well they could not sight the weapon in using the telescope." Simmons also pointed out that rifle aiming device was rebuilt by a machinist who added two shims, one which tended to adjust the azmith and the other the elevation. Simmons, just like the riflemen, was employed by the Warren Commission.

What does that mean the shims "were never found." The WC lost Oswald's shims? What a crock, the shims were produced for the WC tests and were not present when the Mannlicher Carcano was found on the 6th floor TSBD. The rifle could not be sighted in and unless Oswald had a machinist assiting him on the 6th floor with some missing shims for his rifle then the point stands.

The "Ballistic Research Labrotory Tests" is more deceptive bogus. Where was the elevation noted? Where was the fact that the targets were stationary disclosed? Yep, WIKI is for the lazy, thoughtless sheep.

Here is a more accurate assessment which I provided before;

The Warren Commision employed three riflemen rated as Masters by the NRA to fire the Mannlicher Carcano during shooting tests. Out of 5 shooting NRA grades, Master is the highest level and only awarded to the most outstanding riflemen. Two of the riflemen where were civilians and one was in the US Army at the time of the tests. The 6th story window was 60 feet off the ground where the Master Marksmen fired from an elevation estimated by Ronald Simmons, Chief of the Infantry Weapons Evaluation Branch of the Ballistics Research Labratory of the Department of the Army, to be 30 feet off the ground. Oswald supposedly fired at moving target where the experts fired at a stationary targets. In the simulated environment these experts could commence firing whenever they were ready where the assassin(s) had to shoot while the target presented itself.


The experts fired two series of three shots, 6 each for a total of 18 shots, at three stationary targets placed at distaces of 175, 240 and 265 feet respectively. According to Simmons who arranged the test the targets were not as far apart as they should have been to represent the actual position of the limo. Simmons stated that the condition of the field was a "little awkward."

Of the three experts, only one was able to get off the three shots in the required time where he fired three shots 4.6 and 5.1 seconds. The other two Master Riflemen required 6.45, 6.75, 7.0 and 8.25 seconds. Not one of the 18 shots struck the head or neck area of the targets. These tests where conducted under far less demanding circumstances then was attributed to a below average shooter LHO. So you not only have a rifle and rifleman unable to make these shots but you have 3 outstanding riflemen, not "novices," at far less demanding conditions with a rebuilt scope unable to score one hit on easier shots and only 1 to make the shots in the time frame as determined by the Warren Commission.

The unavoidable conclusion based on facts, provided in good faith, is that no Master Rifleman or anyone else has ever come close to reproducing the string of shots attributed to a below average marksman, LHO. The lone gun man theory cannot stand on its own two legs.