Did We Need The USSR????

[gipper]

Here's what the list of Soviet operations against Germany from Operation Barbarossa onward.

Please note that the USA's boots on the ground contribution to the victory in Europe didn't really start intil June 1944?

Anyone trying to make the case that Germany wasn't defeated in large part by the Soviet Army is either a bold faced liar or a damned fool.

1941-06-22 Operation Barbarossa launched – Axis invasion of the Soviet Union
1941-06-22 – ? Battle of the Baltic (1941)
1941-06-22 – 1941-07-09 Battle of Western Ukraine – destruction of Soviet tank armies
1941-06-22 – 1941-07-09 Battle of Bialystok-Minsk – Soviet 3rd and 10th armies encircled
1941-07-10 – 1941-09-10 Battle of Smolensk – Soviet 16th and 20th armies encircled
1941-07-10 – 1941-08-08 Battle of Uman – Soviet 6th and 12th armies encircled
1941-08-08 – 1941-09-19 Battle of Kiev – Soviet Southern Front encircled
1941-08-08 – 1944-01-18 Siege of Leningrad – the city of Leningrad and armies of the Leningrad Front encircled
Operation Silver Fox German and Finnish forces advance north of Leningrad on Murmansk.
Battle of Roslavl
1941-10-24 – 1942-01-07 Operation Typhoon – German advance on Moscow
1941-10-21 – 1941-10-27 Battle of Rostov – Germans initially occupied Rostov but were over-extended and driven back along shore of Sea of Azov by the Red Army.
Battle of Vyazma-Bryansk— see Battle of Moscow
1941-10-10 – Battle of Vyazma – occupied by Germans
1941-10-06 – Battle of Bryansk – occupied by Germans
1941-10-02 – 1942-01-07 Battle of Moscow – Operation Typhoon stalls. Soviet Winter counter-offensive.
Battle of the Crimea
First Battle of Kharkov— Germans occupy Kharkov
1941-11-16 – 1942-07-04 Siege of Sevastopol – Crimea is occupied by the Germans
1941.12.5 - 1942.4.30 Winter Campaign of 1941–1942
1942[edit source | editbeta]

January–April Rzhev-Vyazma Offensive (1942) – disastrous Soviet attempt to cut off the Rzhev salient
1942-2-8 Demyansk Pocket
1942-05-12 – 1942-05-30 Second Battle of Kharkov – Red Army take city but are cut off by 1st Panzer Army
July Battle of Voronezh (1942)
1942-06-28 Operation Blue launched from the Don to the Volga
July First Rzhev-Sychevka Offensive
1942-07-23 – 1943-02-01 Battle of the Caucasus – German troops climb Mount Elbrus but Axis cannot fight their way through to the Caspian Sea oilfields
1942-09-01 – 1943-02-02 Battle of Stalingrad – Bloodiest battle in history
1942-11-19 Operation Uranus launched – Romanian and Hungarian armies destroyed; 300,000 Axis troops trapped at Stalingrad
November–December Second Rzhev-Sychevka Offensive – another disastrous Soviet attempt to cut off Rzhev salient; Georgy Zhukov's worst defeat
1942-12-12 – 1942-12-29 Operation Winter Storm – fails to relieve Stalingrad
1942-12-16 – 1943-02-25 Operation Saturn – Soviet offensive destroys the Axis position in the Caucasus and Donbass
1943[edit source | editbeta]

March Rzhev-Vyazma Offensive (1943)
1943-02-16 – 1943-03-15 Third Battle of Kharkov – Erich von Manstein traps over-extended Red Army
1943-07-05 – 1943-08-01 Battle of Kursk – largest tank battle in history; Germans defeated by defense in depth
1943-07-30 Battle of the Mius
August Battle of Belgorod
August Fourth Battle of Kharkov
Battle of Smolensk (1943)
September–November Battle of the Dniepr
October Battle of Lenino
November Battle of Kiev
December–August 1944 Battle of the Ukraine
1944[edit source | editbeta]

January – Korsun Pocket
1944-01-18 – Siege of Leningrad raised
February–July – Battle of Narva – Soviet Leningrad-Novgorod Strategic Offensive brought to a halt by German forces including Estonian conscript formations
June–August – Operation Bagration – destruction of German Army Group Centre
July–August – Lvov-Sandomir Offensive – destruction of German Army Group South
July – Soviet Narva Operation – Soviet capture of Narva town
1944-07-26 – 1944-08-12 – Battle of Tannenberg Line – Soviet advance to Tallinn harbour brought to a halt by German forces
August – Operation Iassy-Kishinev (German "Operation Jassy-Kischinew") – defeat of German forces in Romania and switching of sides of Romania
1944-08-23 – Romania switches sides
August–September – Warsaw Uprising – failed due to lack of outside support
1944-08-29 – 1944-10-28 – Slovak National Uprising – Failed coup of Slovak-Soviet irregular forces in Slovakia
August–October – Battle of the Baltic (1944) – German Army Group North trapped in Courland
1944-10-06 – 1944-10-28 – Battle of Debrecen – German Army Group Fretter-Pico surrounded and destroyed Soviet Mobile Group Pliyev of the 2nd Ukrainian Front
1944-09-04 – Soviet Union agrees armistice with Finland
October – Battle of Belgrade
1944-12-29 – 1945-02-13 – Battle of Budapest
1945[edit source | editbeta]

1945-01-12 – 1945-02-02 – Vistula-Oder Offensive – Soviet advance from Poland to deep within the borders of Germany (seen from the location of the borders then)
1945-03-06 – 1945-03-17 – Lake Balaton Offensive – Last German offensive of the war
1945-04-02 – 1945-04-13 – Vienna Offensive
1945-04-16 – 1945-04-19 – Battle of the Seelow Heights – Zhukov's costly frontal assault on Berlin
1945-04-16 – 1945-05-02 – Battle of Berlin – One month of street-by-street fighting
1945-04-24 – 1945-05-01 – Battle of Halbe – Elements of German 9th Army escape to the west
1945-04-30 – Death of Adolf Hitler
1945-05-07 – Unconditional surrender of Germany in Rheims
1945-05-08 – Unconditional surrender of Germany in Berlin
1945-05-08 – End of World War II in Europe
1945-05-06 – 1945-05-11 – Prague Offensive

No one is making the case that Germany was not beaten in part by the Soviets. Why are are you raising a straw-man argument?

It was stated above by someone that the USA could NOT have beaten Germany WITHOUT Soviet participation. Of course, it is speculation, but I dispute this.

IMO we should never have become involved in WWII. But, thanks to those American commie spies surrounding Stalin's Stooge, the US helped destroy Germany and build up the stinking Soviets leading to decades of death, destruction, and terrible suffering around the globe.

 

[oldfart]

Why do I bother to read your rambling disoriented posts? I should know better by now

Your post had nothing to do with what I posted

Nothing

It has something to do with that impulse that makes us look at the gore in a bad accident. PC never responds to other posters; she just continues off in her alternative universe. Most of the time I don't read her posts now, not because I don't agree with them, but because they are so badly written they no longer have entertainment value. The novelty of the intellectual equivalent of decapitations and disembowelments has worn thin.

PC has responded to me. Also I find her posts most enlightening and very interesting. You should be thanking her for all the research she puts into her posts rather than criticizing her.

I really enjoy her biting comments too.

I am glad that you are so easily entertained.

 

[PoliticalChic]

It has something to do with that impulse that makes us look at the gore in a bad accident. PC never responds to other posters; she just continues off in her alternative universe. Most of the time I don't read her posts now, not because I don't agree with them, but because they are so badly written they no longer have entertainment value. The novelty of the intellectual equivalent of decapitations and disembowelments has worn thin.

PC has responded to me. Also I find her posts most enlightening and very interesting. You should be thanking her for all the research she puts into her posts rather than criticizing her.

I really enjoy her biting comments too.

I am glad that you are so easily entertained.

Where are the cookies?

 

[rightwinger]

PC has responded to me. Also I find her posts most enlightening and very interesting. You should be thanking her for all the research she puts into her posts rather than criticizing her.

I really enjoy her biting comments too.

I am glad that you are so easily entertained.

Where are the cookies?

The CEO took them

 

[Uncensored2008]

Germany declared war on the US, but suppose the US did not to declare war on Germany? Think of it, Germany and the USSR fighting it out to the end, with only one victor, or no victor, maybe they would have destroyed each other. In that case Britain would then own the continent. By that time the US would have destroyed Japan, so Britain and America would own the world. And with the bomb the US would have owned the world. Why didn't FDR do that?

He was ideologically driven.

 

[Uncensored2008]

When a nation declares war on you, the worst thing you can do is ignore the threat, and in the axiom of military strategy, you need to destroy your enemy.

Germany declared war purely due to their alliance with Japan. They were no threat to the USA - at that time.

 

[Uncensored2008]

In the Mouse that Roared, the mouse was ignored and ended up winning the war

You caught on to that, didja Hatewinger?

Think that might have been the point? That sometimes ignoring a declaration of war is the right move?

 

[Uncensored2008]

Point of fact

The Soviets could have defeated the Nazis without us

Utter bullshit.

I realize that praise of Stalin is sacred doctrine to you, but the Soviets were faced with German troops in Moscow and now way to fight the onslaught, ONLY the machine tooling and heavy industrial equipment provided by the United States allowed Stalin's brutal dictatorship to produce T34's and Mossin Nagants.

We did not have the willpower to defeat the Nazis without the Soviets

Izzatrite, Comrade? The decedent Capitalist Pigs had no will? Weak and spineless?

When I was young, a scumbag like you would have been taken out and horsewhipped for spewing such traitorous bullshit - that was a time when many WWII vets were still alive.

It took millions of deaths to defeat the Nazis. The American public would not have stood for it in a foreign conflict

You Communist fools think that Stalin sending millions, unarmed to be slaughtered, was the key to defeat? It was a tactical disaster. Stalin was more interested in thinning the ranks of Georgians and Ukrainians than in winning battles. I will grant you this, he induced the Nazis to spend their bullets to slaughter his victims - saving him the cost of his own bullets.

The USSR rebounded when tanks and small arms began rolling off assembly lines - peasants without modern arms were utterly useless.

Have you never read Shirer? Or are you just a liar?

(No need to answer, we ALL know the answer.)

 

[Uncensored2008]

Stalingrad happened less than a year after we entered the war. The Nazis never recovered. We gave materiel, they gave blood

It is not the same

Right, the blood did nothing to slow the Nazis - but the rifles and tanks produced from the American machinery, tools, and steel, saved Stalin's dictatorship from the abyss.

 

[Uncensored2008]

We had no choice

They had a million man Army defending their nation

They had a million unarmed peasants throwing rocks at tanks.

 

[rightwinger]

We had no choice

They had a million man Army defending their nation

They had a million unarmed peasants throwing rocks at tanks.

The Russian tanks T-34s were superior to our Shermans

 

[regent]

Point of fact

The Soviets could have defeated the Nazis without us

Utter bullshit.

I realize that praise of Stalin is sacred doctrine to you, but the Soviets were faced with German troops in Moscow and now way to fight the onslaught, ONLY the machine tooling and heavy industrial equipment provided by the United States allowed Stalin's brutal dictatorship to produce T34's and Mossin Nagants.

We did not have the willpower to defeat the Nazis without the Soviets

Izzatrite, Comrade? The decedent Capitalist Pigs had no will? Weak and spineless?

When I was young, a scumbag like you would have been taken out and horsewhipped for spewing such traitorous bullshit - that was a time when many WWII vets were still alive.

It took millions of deaths to defeat the Nazis. The American public would not have stood for it in a foreign conflict

You Communist fools think that Stalin sending millions, unarmed to be slaughtered, was the key to defeat? It was a tactical disaster. Stalin was more interested in thinning the ranks of Georgians and Ukrainians than in winning battles. I will grant you this, he induced the Nazis to spend their bullets to slaughter his victims - saving him the cost of his own bullets.

The USSR rebounded when tanks and small arms began rolling off assembly lines - peasants without modern arms were utterly useless.

Have you never read Shirer? Or are you just a liar?

(No need to answer, we ALL know the answer.)

The average GI just wanted to get the war done and go home. Every German or Japanese killed was one step closer to that going home. In fact, we started dismantling our army before Japan was defeated.
The USSR dismantled what plants they had and moved to to safety and they produced, in fact their war-time production made it a world power. Our trucks and jeeps helped considerably, but the bottom line was we'll hold your coat. And the holding coat strategy was the best move we could have made.

 

[PrometheusBound]

Truman, in order to feed the MI Complex with huge government grants for the next 50 years, purposely let the Soviet Union and China get big enough to become a viable threat. The US had a monopoly on nuclear weapons and could have used it to force the Soviets out of Eastern Europe. For the same mercenary reasons, Truman, who had been part of the crooked Pendergast machine in Missouri, prevented MacArthur from greatly weakening Red China.

Another sheep only believing what the ruling class lets you think. On their Internet, originality is the only crime.

 

[regent]

Truman, in order to feed the MI Complex with huge government grants for the next 50 years, purposely let the Soviet Union and China get big enough to become a viable threat. The US had a monopoly on nuclear weapons and could have used it to force the Soviets out of Eastern Europe. For the same mercenary reasons, Truman, who had been part of the crooked Pendergast machine in Missouri, prevented MacArthur from greatly weakening Red China.

Another sheep only believing what the ruling class lets you think. On their Internet, originality is the only crime.

Weakening Red China? You're talking about World War III and maybe a nuclear war and suppose the American people didn't want WW III and a nuclear war?

 

[PrometheusBound]

The Soviet Union won the most in the war, why won't people believe that Stalin planned it that way as far back as 1939? You Netties should question suspiciously whatever you've been told and taught about things the same way you'd question any other power's propaganda. I really believe you'd all still believe in Santa Claus if no one in authority had told you he didn't exist.

Stalin purposely provoked Hitler into attacking, then let his purposely weakened and mismanaged Western front fold so Hitler would rush ahead confident of another quick blitzkrieg victory. If it had not all been a faked Soviet resistance, there is no doubt that the Nazis would have won the war by 1942. The real Russian army was kept in reserve until the Nazis had far overextended themselves. There were also partisans planted all over the conquered area to make the trap even worse. Stalin didn't start fighting back until December 7, 1941.

Another part of this faked defeat was to trick FDR into joining the war. With the Nazis apparently a sure thing about to control both Europe and Russia, with all its oil resources, America would be vulnerable to conquest. There was also the factor that Hitler had waged a pre-emptive and apparently unprovoked attack on Russia and would do the same to the United States despite any appeasement.

But in reality, once Barbarossa was launched, Germany was doomed even if we didn't help any of its enemies at all. If we had kept out of it, however, Russia would have been so weakened despite its inevitable victory that it probably wouldn't have been able to take Eastern Europe. So the ETO part of our war was a waste of Americans lives. Nobody knew that then and nobody has believed it since, which shows you how having unintelligent people in intelligence costs lives. It goes on and on with these simple-minded policies drawn up and promoted by simple minds.

 

[regent]

The Soviet Union won the most in the war, why won't people believe that Stalin planned it that way as far back as 1939? You Netties should question suspiciously whatever you've been told and taught about things the same way you'd question any other power's propaganda. I really believe you'd all still believe in Santa Claus if no one in authority had told you he didn't exist.

Stalin purposely provoked Hitler into attacking, then let his purposely weakened and mismanaged Western front fold so Hitler would rush ahead confident of another quick blitzkrieg victory. If it had not all been a faked Soviet resistance, there is no doubt that the Nazis would have won the war by 1942. The real Russian army was kept in reserve until the Nazis had far overextended themselves. There were also partisans planted all over the conquered area to make the trap even worse. Stalin didn't start fighting back until December 7, 1941.

Another part of this faked defeat was to trick FDR into joining the war. With the Nazis apparently a sure thing about to control both Europe and Russia, with all its oil resources, America would be vulnerable to conquest. There was also the factor that Hitler had waged a pre-emptive and apparently unprovoked attack on Russia and would do the same to the United States despite any appeasement.

But in reality, once Barbarossa was launched, Germany was doomed even if we didn't help any of its enemies at all. If we had kept out of it, however, Russia would have been so weakened despite its inevitable victory that it probably wouldn't have been able to take Eastern Europe. So the ETO part of our war was a waste of Americans lives. Nobody knew that then and nobody has believed it since, which shows you how having unintelligent people in intelligence costs lives. It goes on and on with these simple-minded policies drawn up and promoted by simple minds.

Satire, right?

 

[gipper]

The Soviet Union won the most in the war, why won't people believe that Stalin planned it that way as far back as 1939? You Netties should question suspiciously whatever you've been told and taught about things the same way you'd question any other power's propaganda. I really believe you'd all still believe in Santa Claus if no one in authority had told you he didn't exist.

Stalin purposely provoked Hitler into attacking, then let his purposely weakened and mismanaged Western front fold so Hitler would rush ahead confident of another quick blitzkrieg victory. If it had not all been a faked Soviet resistance, there is no doubt that the Nazis would have won the war by 1942. The real Russian army was kept in reserve until the Nazis had far overextended themselves. There were also partisans planted all over the conquered area to make the trap even worse. Stalin didn't start fighting back until December 7, 1941.

Another part of this faked defeat was to trick FDR into joining the war. With the Nazis apparently a sure thing about to control both Europe and Russia, with all its oil resources, America would be vulnerable to conquest. There was also the factor that Hitler had waged a pre-emptive and apparently unprovoked attack on Russia and would do the same to the United States despite any appeasement.

But in reality, once Barbarossa was launched, Germany was doomed even if we didn't help any of its enemies at all. If we had kept out of it, however, Russia would have been so weakened despite its inevitable victory that it probably wouldn't have been able to take Eastern Europe. So the ETO part of our war was a waste of Americans lives. Nobody knew that then and nobody has believed it since, which shows you how having unintelligent people in intelligence costs lives. It goes on and on with these simple-minded policies drawn up and promoted by simple minds.

Much has been written about Stalin's plans to invade Germany before Germany invaded. Some believe and have facts to back up their opinion, that Stalin was only a few weeks away from giving the order to invade, when Hitler beat him to the punch.

The vast numbers of men and material captured by the Germans in the early days of the war, would seem to confirm this theory.

When Uncle Joe learned from his spy in Tokyo (and likely also from his spies surrounding his stooge in the White House), that Japan had no plans for invading the USSR and intended to strike the USA, he moved those eastern divisions to the front and pushed the Germans back.

Stalin could not have known that Hitler would lose his mind and would sacrifice the 6th Army at Stalingrad, while extending the entire front to far eastward to properly supply and protect from counterattack.

 

[Uncensored2008]

The Russian tanks T-34s were superior to our Shermans

Not before the USA provided machines and machine tools - they were literally throwing rocks.

Oh, and the Bullshit about the T-34 being superior was well fleshed out when the two went head to head in Korea. While you view anything Communist to be perfect, that was not the case.

 

[Uncensored2008]

The average GI just wanted to get the war done and go home. Every German or Japanese killed was one step closer to that going home. In fact, we started dismantling our army before Japan was defeated.
The USSR dismantled what plants they had and moved to to safety and they produced, in fact their war-time production made it a world power. Our trucks and jeeps helped considerably, but the bottom line was we'll hold your coat. And the holding coat strategy was the best move we could have made.

It wasn't trucks and jeeps, it was the large Chicago® break presses, shears, stamping presses, and the tooling built by Detroit, along with thousands of tons of American steel,, which allowed the Soviet Dictatorship to produce both small and heavy arms, to equip their people with, that turned the tide on the Eastern front.

We should have done nothing, and let the Nazis destroy Stalin's empire - the USSR was worse in every way than the Nazis, and the fight between the two evil empires would have left the victor bloodied, ready to be crushed by allied forces.

FDR's support of Stalin was ideological, not strategic.

 

[PrometheusBound]

The Soviet Union won the most in the war, why won't people believe that Stalin planned it that way as far back as 1939? You Netties should question suspiciously whatever you've been told and taught about things the same way you'd question any other power's propaganda. I really believe you'd all still believe in Santa Claus if no one in authority had told you he didn't exist.

Stalin purposely provoked Hitler into attacking, then let his purposely weakened and mismanaged Western front fold so Hitler would rush ahead confident of another quick blitzkrieg victory. If it had not all been a faked Soviet resistance, there is no doubt that the Nazis would have won the war by 1942. The real Russian army was kept in reserve until the Nazis had far overextended themselves. There were also partisans planted all over the conquered area to make the trap even worse. Stalin didn't start fighting back until December 7, 1941.

Another part of this faked defeat was to trick FDR into joining the war. With the Nazis apparently a sure thing about to control both Europe and Russia, with all its oil resources, America would be vulnerable to conquest. There was also the factor that Hitler had waged a pre-emptive and apparently unprovoked attack on Russia and would do the same to the United States despite any appeasement.

But in reality, once Barbarossa was launched, Germany was doomed even if we didn't help any of its enemies at all. If we had kept out of it, however, Russia would have been so weakened despite its inevitable victory that it probably wouldn't have been able to take Eastern Europe. So the ETO part of our war was a waste of Americans lives. Nobody knew that then and nobody has believed it since, which shows you how having unintelligent people in intelligence costs lives. It goes on and on with these simple-minded policies drawn up and promoted by simple minds.

Satire, right?

Denial, right? Also, a childish mind that desperately looks up to historians as intellectual father figures.