Do Natural Rights Exist Without Government ?

[Quantum Windbag]

You should be able to post where I said freedom scares me. I cant stand liars. I see you are back to your old tricks of diversion in the face of being unable to mount an argument that lasts beyond my very next post refuting it. You just earned a trip to the penalty box until you get your act together like the other adults on the thread.

You should be able to post where I said you said it. If you can't, then I suggest you go back and actually address the arguments I made instead of trying to "(N)ibble at the legs of other arguments hoping to wear you out with things that are not relevant."

Its impossible you are this stupid. It was right there above your post.

Yes, I know freedom scares you, you have said so many times.

Yes, you said it when you claimed that people are afraid of things that go against the need to be part of a group, and when you insisted that rights did not come from nature. That still doesn't actually mean you said those exact words, does it? And it still fails to actually address the arguments a made because you prefer to get lost in irrelevant details in an attempt to prove how clever you are.

 

[Asclepias]

So as long as someone is bigger or stronger or smarter, they have the right to take what is yours? They have the right to control your life? Once they beat you down, and you can no longer fight, your rights cease to exist?

They dont have the right until they create the rights and assign them. They have the ability to do it but not the right.

Your rights never existed unless they were specified.

So my right to live did not exist until government assigned me that right?

Correct.

 

[Asclepias]

You should be able to post where I said you said it. If you can't, then I suggest you go back and actually address the arguments I made instead of trying to "(N)ibble at the legs of other arguments hoping to wear you out with things that are not relevant."

Its impossible you are this stupid. It was right there above your post.

Yes, I know freedom scares you, you have said so many times.

Yes, you said it when you claimed that people are afraid of things that go against the need to be part of a group, and when you insisted that rights did not come from nature. That still doesn't actually mean you said those exact words, does it? And it still fails to actually address the arguments a made because you prefer to get lost in irrelevant details in an attempt to prove how clever you are.

Well if you want to converse with me you will stick to what I said and not what you assumed. If you need clarification ask or I simply will not address you unless I feel like it. I cant stand liars.

 

[Pennywise]

No they dont have the right unless they created rights and specified they had them. Are you asking if they have the ability or are you saying is it okay?

We all have the ability in one way or another to control other people. All of us have the capability to murder someone.

Is it okay, to enslave someone without having a government recognize inalienable right?

I dont think its ok but other people think it is. We have examples throughout history showing this.

Of course, history is rampant with slavery. So inalienable rights are subject to majority rule?

 

[Quantum Windbag]

Thats pretty inconvenient for his argument.

Only if you are a small minded bigot who believes that belief in God means that everything else a person believes is wrong.

ahh so there is a God----he just didn't create Natural rights ?

I actually addressed the issue earlier in the thread. If you really care to know what I said feel free to go look.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

Not just that but also where do they exist? I dont mind if they are invisible but the effects of those inalienable rights should be observable without man labeling them as such.

It takes an enlightened sensibility to perceive that. Do you believe that people have the right to control you? Do you believe that you only exist due to the good graces of government?

Some people indeed have the right to control me in certain situations. The police are a good example.

No i exist because my parents created me. I would exist with or without a government.

They have the power, not the right. You have the legal right to ignore them.

 

[Pennywise]

They dont have the right until they create the rights and assign them. They have the ability to do it but not the right.

Your rights never existed unless they were specified.

So my right to live did not exist until government assigned me that right?

Correct.

Wow. That's all I got based on that response.

 

[Asclepias]

We all have the ability in one way or another to control other people. All of us have the capability to murder someone.

Is it okay, to enslave someone without having a government recognize inalienable right?

I dont think its ok but other people think it is. We have examples throughout history showing this.

Of course, history is rampant with slavery. So inalienable rights are subject to majority rule?

Pretty much all rights are subject to majority rule.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

They dont have the right until they create the rights and assign them. They have the ability to do it but not the right.

Your rights never existed unless they were specified.

So my right to live did not exist until government assigned me that right?

Correct.

Which government agency is in charge of assigning people that right? How do they deal with people who are born to parents who refuse to report the birth to the government?

 

[dilloduck]

It takes an enlightened sensibility to perceive that. Do you believe that people have the right to control you? Do you believe that you only exist due to the good graces of government?

Some people indeed have the right to control me in certain situations. The police are a good example.

No i exist because my parents created me. I would exist with or without a government.

They have the power, not the right. You have the legal right to ignore them.

Police have legal rights---resist them and you may not have the legal rights you think you have,

 

[Quantum Windbag]

Its impossible you are this stupid. It was right there above your post.

Yes, you said it when you claimed that people are afraid of things that go against the need to be part of a group, and when you insisted that rights did not come from nature. That still doesn't actually mean you said those exact words, does it? And it still fails to actually address the arguments a made because you prefer to get lost in irrelevant details in an attempt to prove how clever you are.

Well if you want to converse with me you will stick to what I said and not what you assumed. If you need clarification ask or I simply will not address you unless I feel like it. I cant stand liars.

Are you actually going to address the arguments I made that proved you wrong, or are you going to continue to pretend I am the one that "nibble at the legs of other arguments hoping to wear you out with things that are not relevant?"

 

[Quantum Windbag]

Some people indeed have the right to control me in certain situations. The police are a good example.

No i exist because my parents created me. I would exist with or without a government.

They have the power, not the right. You have the legal right to ignore them.

Police have legal rights---resist them and you may not have the legal rights you think you have,

Human beings and legal persons have legal rights, agents of the government have powers.

 

[Pennywise]

I dont think its ok but other people think it is. We have examples throughout history showing this.

Of course, history is rampant with slavery. So inalienable rights are subject to majority rule?

Pretty much.

So that slave in the basement on the isolated island community, he has no rights because someone is controlling him. His liberty is subject to the whims of his master? The fact that he is in chains, means his rights to be free have been revoked?

I'm not asking about what he is physically capable of at that point, I am asking about the philosophy of liberty.

 

[Asclepias]

Yes, you said it when you claimed that people are afraid of things that go against the need to be part of a group, and when you insisted that rights did not come from nature. That still doesn't actually mean you said those exact words, does it? And it still fails to actually address the arguments a made because you prefer to get lost in irrelevant details in an attempt to prove how clever you are.

Well if you want to converse with me you will stick to what I said and not what you assumed. If you need clarification ask or I simply will not address you unless I feel like it. I cant stand liars.

Are you actually going to address the arguments I made that proved you wrong, or are you going to continue to pretend I am the one that "nibble at the legs of other arguments hoping to wear you out with things that are not relevant?"

Either you stop being a liar and apologize for lying or go kick rocks. Your arguments have no merit at all simply because you are not a very wholesome person. I could care less what you want to discuss when you are a liar.

 

[dilloduck]

Of course, history is rampant with slavery. So inalienable rights are subject to majority rule?

Pretty much.

So that slave in the basement on the isolated island community, he has no rights because someone is controlling him. His liberty is subject to the whims of his master? The fact that he is in chains, means his rights to be free have been revoked?

I'm not asking about what he is physically capable of at that point, I am asking about the philosophy of liberty.

Some people will tell you that the slave has a right to be freed. He may have. What good does that do him ?

 

[Asclepias]

Of course, history is rampant with slavery. So inalienable rights are subject to majority rule?

Pretty much.

So that slave in the basement on the isolated island community, he has no rights because someone is controlling him. His liberty is subject to the whims of his master? The fact that he is in chains, means his rights to be free have been revoked?

I'm not asking about what he is physically capable of at that point, I am asking about the philosophy of liberty.

The philosophy of liberty is irrelevant at that point. Philosophies are not going to change the fact he has no liberty. Even if in this case he had rights what good are they?

 

[Pennywise]

Pretty much.

So that slave in the basement on the isolated island community, he has no rights because someone is controlling him. His liberty is subject to the whims of his master? The fact that he is in chains, means his rights to be free have been revoked?

I'm not asking about what he is physically capable of at that point, I am asking about the philosophy of liberty.

The philosophy of liberty is irrelevant at that point. Philosophies are not going to change the fact he has no liberty. Even if in this case he had rights what good are they?

If the slave believes he is subject to the master, that the master tells him what rights he has and does not have, his spirit will eventually be broken. It matters because without liberty life does not exist.

Why did your forefathers fight for freedom?

 

[Pennywise]

Pretty much.

So that slave in the basement on the isolated island community, he has no rights because someone is controlling him. His liberty is subject to the whims of his master? The fact that he is in chains, means his rights to be free have been revoked?

I'm not asking about what he is physically capable of at that point, I am asking about the philosophy of liberty.

Some people will tell you that the slave has a right to be freed. He may have. What good does that do him ?

Ask an abused child or woman.

 

[dilloduck]

So that slave in the basement on the isolated island community, he has no rights because someone is controlling him. His liberty is subject to the whims of his master? The fact that he is in chains, means his rights to be free have been revoked?

I'm not asking about what he is physically capable of at that point, I am asking about the philosophy of liberty.

Some people will tell you that the slave has a right to be freed. He may have. What good does that do him ?

Ask an abused child or woman.

They have legal rights-----does that prevent abuse ?

 

[Pennywise]

Some people will tell you that the slave has a right to be freed. He may have. What good does that do him ?

Ask an abused child or woman.

They have legal rights-----does that prevent abuse ?

Of course not, but those 'inalienable rights' allow for redress and punitive action to be taken against the abuser.