CDZ Do we really need laws about what restroom transgender people use?

[320 Years of History]

there is a serious lack of progressive acceptance of transgender gender identification in africa that far surpasses the tolerant west. What is your thoughts on this? How do we get africa to accept transgender identity as normal?

As the OP of this thread, I can tell you that the "serious lack of progressive acceptance of transgender gender identification in africa [sic]" has nothing to do with the topic of this thread. If you'd like to discuss that, there is a place on USMB for it: http://www.usmessageboard.com/forums/africa.86/ . I heartily encourage you to take up the issue there. This thread in the CDZ is not the place for it.

 

[OldLady]

It has been refreshing to read a thread on this topic that is actually reasonable. If you want to see "crazy," read some of the threads on this subject outside the CDZ. A lot of people apparently don't know what a transsexual is, and their vision is of a hairy man walking in to a ladies room, raping the little girls at will. It has further devolved into arguments that transsexuals are all Democrats, and Democrats are pushing these anti-discrimination laws because it is their secret wish to molest children in the bathroom of the opposite sex.

I've only known a couple of these unusual folks, and neither of them would have caused the blink of an eye walking into the bathroom of their identified gender. One was post surgery and the other was just at the beginning of the odyssey. Her plumbing may have not matched her male identification and she might have had difficulty using a urinal, but the private stalls in all bathrooms would take care of that problem. As 320 pointed out, it's likely that some folks are confusing transsexuals with drag queens. But even drag queens aren't a threat in a ladies room; they're just one of the girls, at least the ones I've met.

It is totally possible that because I don't live in a big city and am not exposed to a lot of unusual people, my idea of transsexuals is too limited. Because changing one's sex is a prolonged process, there are no doubt a lot of individuals at various points in the change. It seems to me, though, that the NC law forces men who are becoming women, dress and act as a woman, to use a men's room. That would be dangerous to the transsexual, not the other occupants of the bathroom. I have a feeling these people have been using and will continue to use the bathroom of their identified gender with no one knowing the difference. It seems to me that the new law may in fact be a 'punishment' for transsexuals under the innocent, wide-eyed protestations that they are just protecting their daughters and granddaughters.

 

[RetiredGySgt]

North Carolina has passed a law that requires transgender people to use the restroom associated with, not the gender they are, but the gender they used to be, the one on their birth certificate. Boy...Have we really descended to that level of puerility on a statewide level? Apparently so, for NC has indeed passed that law.

Personally, I don't see much need for gender assignments on restrooms, although as a man, I'm thrilled that we have them because, IMO, women take too damn long to "do their business." God forbid I were to attend a large event like a football game or concert and have to stand in the women's line or a "any gender" line to go to the loo. I'd surely have not gotten to the urinal in time on at least a few occasions. LOL

More seriously, however, NC's new law strikes me as just silly.

• Who carries birth certificates around all the time?
• Who is going to check whether one has or has not undergone gender reassignment surgery?
• Why would a man want to wait in the women's line to go to the loo? (I know why women would prefer to use the men's room; it's faster.)
• Is NC going to require transgender persons to wear a "T" on their outermost garment much as Hitler forced Jews to wear Stars of David to signify their status as Jews?

Restrooms are for the gender one is at the time one uses it. Rationally (not emotionally) what does the gender one used to be have to do with it? It's not as though being able to use the restroom of the opposite gender is even remotely why folks switch from one gender to the other.

Actually the law prevents people with male genitalia from using a female bathroom and prevents people with female genitalia from using a male bathroom. I for one do not want men in the women's bathroom. You see straight people have RIGHTS too.

 

[320 Years of History]

North Carolina has passed a law that requires transgender people to use the restroom associated with, not the gender they are, but the gender they used to be, the one on their birth certificate. Boy...Have we really descended to that level of puerility on a statewide level? Apparently so, for NC has indeed passed that law.

Personally, I don't see much need for gender assignments on restrooms, although as a man, I'm thrilled that we have them because, IMO, women take too damn long to "do their business." God forbid I were to attend a large event like a football game or concert and have to stand in the women's line or a "any gender" line to go to the loo. I'd surely have not gotten to the urinal in time on at least a few occasions. LOL

More seriously, however, NC's new law strikes me as just silly.

• Who carries birth certificates around all the time?
• Who is going to check whether one has or has not undergone gender reassignment surgery?
• Why would a man want to wait in the women's line to go to the loo? (I know why women would prefer to use the men's room; it's faster.)
• Is NC going to require transgender persons to wear a "T" on their outermost garment much as Hitler forced Jews to wear Stars of David to signify their status as Jews?

Restrooms are for the gender one is at the time one uses it. Rationally (not emotionally) what does the gender one used to be have to do with it? It's not as though being able to use the restroom of the opposite gender is even remotely why folks switch from one gender to the other.

Actually the law prevents people with male genitalia from using a female bathroom and prevents people with female genitalia from using a male bathroom. I for one do not want men in the women's bathroom. You see straight people have RIGHTS too.

• Do you want men with tits in the men's room?
• Do you want to see people risk getting beaten in the men's room?
• Do you want surveillance cameras in the men's room so security personnel can know in as timely a manner possible when violence breaks out there?

Personally, I don't actively want any of those things, and I'm fine with letting a mid-process transsexual use the ladies' room. Let's face it, it's a man on his way to becoming a woman. What is she-he going to do other than enter a stall, poop/pee, wash "shis" hands (hopefully LOL), and leave? I mean let's be real here. It's not as though women hang out in the open in the loo with their cootchie in the wide open for all to see.

 

[WorldWatcher]

Actually the law prevents people with male genitalia from using a female bathroom and prevents people with female genitalia from using a male bathroom. I for one do not want men in the women's bathroom. You see straight people have RIGHTS too.

I don't believe that is quite right Gunny, the law requires you to use the bathroom of the sex on your birth certificate. That means a post operative Trans Male that has a penis, yet has "Female" listed on their birth certificate would be using the female restroom. Same for vice versa.


>>>>

 

[RetiredGySgt]

The ordance that was overturned made no specific requirement other then the person CHOOSE to identify themselves as transgendered. In other words any man could make the claim and use the women's bathroom. As for birth certificate guess what? once the surgery is done you can get it changed. Until you do that is on YOU not the normal people that have rights too.

 

[WorldWatcher]

The ordance that was overturned made no specific requirement other then the person CHOOSE to identify themselves as transgendered. In other words any man could make the claim and use the women's bathroom.

I know, didn't say it didn't.

As for birth certificate guess what? once the surgery is done you can get it changed. Until you do that is on YOU not the normal people that have rights too.

This is also true, but comports with what I said. Until the person CHOOSES to get their birth certificate changed, then you have a Trans Man (one with a penis, but female on their birth certificate) required under this law to use the women's bathroom.



What's the answer? Don't claim to know. But the extremist feces from both side isn't helping.



>>>>

 

[320 Years of History]

Actually the law prevents people with male genitalia from using a female bathroom and prevents people with female genitalia from using a male bathroom. I for one do not want men in the women's bathroom. You see straight people have RIGHTS too.

I don't believe that is quite right Gunny, the law requires you to use the bathroom of the sex on your birth certificate. That means a post operative Trans Male that has a penis, yet has "Female" listed on their birth certificate would be using the female restroom. Same for vice versa.


>>>>

Red:
That is what it says. TY.

Blue:
That would be so unless and until the post-op transsexual has their birth certificate altered. At least in NC that's the way it'd work. I don't know what the rules are in other states re: altering birth certificates, but NC does allow transsexuals who've completed the full process of sex reassignment to alter theirs so that it reflects their current sex/gender.

 

[320 Years of History]

The ordance that was overturned made no specific requirement other then the person CHOOSE to identify themselves as transgendered. In other words any man could make the claim and use the women's bathroom. As for birth certificate guess what? once the surgery is done you can get it changed. Until you do that is on YOU not the normal people that have rights too.

Did I miss something? Here is the law. Read it.

 

[320 Years of History]

the normal people

What Do We Mean by 'Normal'?

 

[Dekster]

I care less about this issue when it comes to adults that I do with teenagers in a school setting. Perhaps we can compromise and replace "boys" with "Penises" and girls with "Vaginas" so nobody is "traumatized"

 

[Asclepias]

I care less about this issue when it comes to adults that I do with teenagers in a school setting. Perhaps we can compromise and replace "boys" with "Penises" and girls with "Vaginas" so nobody is "traumatized"

My wife is friends with a lady that has a son that is transgender. I've known him since was in the 6th grade because he was friend of my daughter. He is pre-opt and he uses the girls restroom. No one cares and he doesnt attack women. He recently was disallowed to play girls volleyball since he is now 15 and despite female hormone injections he is beginning to develop as a male.

 

[RetiredGySgt]

the normal people

What Do We Mean by 'Normal'?

1 to 3 percent of the population is abnormal not normal when 90 percent is the same that is normal. as you know full well. I have rights so do other normal people. Just because you buy into the garbage about transexuals does not mean you get to force me to put up with them in my public bathrooms.

 

[RetiredGySgt]

I [could not] care less about this issue when it comes to adults [though] I do [care] with [regard to] teenagers in a school setting. Perhaps we can compromise and replace "boys" with "Penises" and girls with "Vaginas" so nobody is "traumatized"

I hope my revisions to your post are accurate. Please let me know if they are not.

That said, who is there in the teenage and school attending population to be traumatized by the legislation other than the transgender teens whom it affects?

Truly I find myself vastly more concerned about a teen getting hold of their parents firearm(s) and shooting a bunch of their schoolmates than I am or can be over whether teen boys or girls use the other's restroom.

I mean really....A meaningful share of the polity feel it essential to the point of passing laws to address and mitigate whatever risks be associated with any one of the 700K transgender folks (some share of which are teens) in the U.S. relieving themselves in a restroom, but let someone try to pass a law that even remotely attempts to lessen the chances that many millions of teens get hold of and harmfully fires a gun, and that very same share of the polity won't have it, ain't hearin' it, not today, not tomorrow, not ever...Really?

700K transgender folks peeing

is more disturbing than​

300M+ guns owned and 41M+ teenagers

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

MILLIONS do not now get a hold of firearms and harm others with them. Keep on lying. Once again I have rights too.

 

[320 Years of History]

you get to force me to put up with them in my public bathrooms.

Oh....

 

[RetiredGySgt]

you get to force me to put up with them in my public bathrooms.

Oh....

You do NOT get to force perversion on normal people simply to satisfy your ignorance. We have rights too.

 

[320 Years of History]

you get to force me to put up with them in my public bathrooms.

Oh....

You do NOT get to force perversion on normal people simply to satisfy your ignorance. We have rights too.

The only thing you can do easily is be wrong, and that's hardly worth the effort.
-- Norton Juster, The Phantom Tollbooth​

Nobody is forcing a perversion on anyone. Indeed, to the contrary, transsexuals are begging and pleading for the ability not to even make it known to you that they are in the process of switching their sex. Mid-process M-->F transsexuals who seem to look like women and they want to use the ladies room, which only has stalls. Mid-process F-->M transsexuals who seem to look like men, want to use the men's room, and if they haven't had their genitals changed, they will most assuredly use a stall.

Jesus, Mary and Joseph! The people are doing all they can not to make others uncomfortable, and this law that forces those "men with tits" and "women with beards" to use the restroom on their birth certificate is going to make more folks uncomfortable than any other way to handle the matter will.

• When I wash my hands next to you in the public restroom, what do I force on you?
• If you wash your hands next to a transsexual, what are you forcing on them or they on you?
• If you are in a bathroom stall, what is anyone else in the restroom forcing on you?
• If you pass a transsexual in the hallway, what are they forcing on you?

It seems to me that the only thing that could possibly distinguish your restroom experience and that would make you feel as though something is being forced on you is (1) the fact that you know the "butt ugly" woman about to pass you in the hallway is a man, because unless you are into men yourself, you likely won't even notice the guy passing you in the hallway, or (2) the law that NC has now passed, which boost the odds you'll find out some individual is a mid-process transsexual.

Given the design of the law in NC, it is, in NC at least, more likely to find out someone is a transsexual in the making, assuming you actually are in the restroom with one of the 700K transsexuals in the U.S., not all of whom, thankfully for you, are in NC, which is highly unlikely to begin with unless you happen work/live in close proximity to one of them.

If something is there, you can only see it with your eyes open, but if it isn't there, you can see it just as well with your eyes closed. That's why imaginary things are often easier to see than real ones.
― Norton Juster, The Phantom Tollbooth​

 

[Dekster]

I care less about this issue when it comes to adults that I do with teenagers in a school setting. Perhaps we can compromise and replace "boys" with "Penises" and girls with "Vaginas" so nobody is "traumatized"

My wife is friends with a lady that has a son that is transgender. I've known him since was in the 6th grade because he was friend of my daughter. He is pre-opt and he uses the girls restroom. No one cares and he doesnt attack women. He recently was disallowed to play girls volleyball since he is now 15 and despite female hormone injections he is beginning to develop as a male.

Just because you are unaware of someone caring does not mean that no one cares. I cannot recall ever being in a gym class or sports locker room where there wasn't at least a couple people who would not change clothes in front of other students or who would never shower. People who have issues with their bodies are more common than just transgender people, and they often are very meek and timid people who are not going to be drawing more attention to themselves.

 

[GaryDog]

you get to force me to put up with them in my public bathrooms.

Oh....

You do NOT get to force perversion on normal people simply to satisfy your ignorance. We have rights too.

Why are you so obsessed with other people's genitalia? Was it from your time in the military? Did they make you.....do things?

 

[GaryDog]

you get to force me to put up with them in my public bathrooms.

Oh....

You do NOT get to force perversion on normal people simply to satisfy your ignorance. We have rights too.

The only thing you can do easily is be wrong, and that's hardly worth the effort.
-- Norton Juster, The Phantom Tollbooth​

Nobody is forcing a perversion on anyone. Indeed, to the contrary, transsexuals are begging and pleading for the ability not to even make it known to you that they are in the process of switching their sex. Mid-process M-->F transsexuals who seem to look like women and they want to use the ladies room, which only has stalls. Mid-process F-->M transsexuals who seem to look like men, want to use the men's room, and if they haven't had their genitals changed, they will most assuredly use a stall.

Jesus, Mary and Joseph! The people are doing all they can not to make others uncomfortable, and this law that forces those "men with tits" and "women with beards" to use the restroom on their birth certificate is going to make more folks uncomfortable than any other way to handle the matter will.

• When I wash my hands next to you in the public restroom, what do I force on you?
• If you wash your hands next to a transsexual, what are you forcing on them or they on you?
• If you are in a bathroom stall, what is anyone else in the restroom forcing on you?
• If you pass a transsexual in the hallway, what are they forcing on you?

It seems to me that the only thing that could possibly distinguish your restroom experience and that would make you feel as though something is being forced on you is (1) the fact that you know the "butt ugly" woman about to pass you in the hallway is a man, because unless you are into men yourself, you likely won't even notice the guy passing you in the hallway, or (2) the law that NC has now passed, which boost the odds you'll find out some individual is a mid-process transsexual.

Given the design of the law in NC, it is, in NC at least, more likely to find out someone is a transsexual in the making, assuming you actually are in the restroom with one of the 700K transsexuals in the U.S., not all of whom, thankfully for you, are in NC, which is highly unlikely to begin with unless you happen work/live in close proximity to one of them.

If something is there, you can only see it with your eyes open, but if it isn't there, you can see it just as well with your eyes closed. That's why imaginary things are often easier to see than real ones.
― Norton Juster, The Phantom Tollbooth​

It's really as simple as this:

They think gays and transgenders are "icky."

That's it. There's no more validity to their argument apart from personal animus.