Do You Think The Fast & Furious Scandal Is Worse Than Watergate Scandal?

[MarcATL]

The CON$ never, never, never learn....the keep reaching, reaching and overreaching. Every. single. time.

Tsk, tsk, tsk.

*SMH*

And winning.

Until the Dems stop being such pussies, the Cons will continue. After all, why should they change whats working for them?

November will be here soon enough. We'll see how it works out for them.

 

[Vidi]

The CON$ never, never, never learn....the keep reaching, reaching and overreaching. Every. single. time.

Tsk, tsk, tsk.

*SMH*

And winning.

Until the Dems stop being such pussies, the Cons will continue. After all, why should they change whats working for them?

November will be here soon enough. We'll see how it works out for them.

Doesnt matter. The Mandate was THEIR idea. They got it. They mobe further and further right demanding compromise that always falls into their side of things. The left needs to get alot tougher and alot lefter if its going to combat this.

That way, compromise falls in the center and center has traditionally been good for this country.

 

[Vast LWC]

Scooter Libby does come to mind.

I will give you that. That is true.

But again, in Scooter Libby's case, a crime had been committed, and the person who committed the crime was part of Bush's cabinet.

Valerie Plame was in fact outted by someone with the knowledge to do so, and there was clear televised proof of members of the administration talking about her status as a CIA agent.

In this case, there is no crime in the first place, except for the one committed by Mexican criminals.

There is incompetence, clearly, but no crime.

 

[Vast LWC]

I agree. After all out of the 2000 assault rifles that were sold to foreign criminals, I will bet we have recovered 10, maybe 12. We know of two that were probably used to kill Agent Terry.

According to Mexican officials, that number goes over the border on average, every single year.

What's different about these particular weapons.

There were 15 ATF agents killed in the link of duty between 2007 and 2011. How many of those agents do you think were shot with US weapons, considering an estimated 70% of mexican guns come from America.

What's my point? You might ask.

My point is that, whether Fast and Furious was in effect at all, in all probability that Border guard would have been shot with an American weapon.

The ATF did not cause any MORE guns to be sold to Mexican cartels in F&F than would have been sold anyway. And they certainly did not tell those Mexicans to kill the Agent in question.

Therefore, the ATF cannot be faulted for Terry's death. It would have happened anyway.

 

[Vast LWC]

I'm going to reply in a couple parts here, I have limited time today (and I want to reach the link threshold ) . . . Thanks for the compliments.

You just aren't giving this crowd enough credit.

Let's put it this way . . .

If one was going to put into action a plan to grease the path of weapons smuggling "under the radar" (which is how Obama told Sarah Brady he was working on gun control) to effect a crisis intended to sway public opinion to call for ATF to enact regional regulations (as a worst case outcome i.e., Demand Letter 3) or much, much better, the reenactment of an even more encompassing national Assault Weapons Ban . . .

No better people could have been chosen to be in the governmental command structure with both the required political allegiance and knowledge of the workings of the region, to see this agenda is acted on and brought to completion.

Let's look at just one link in the chain . . . (which gives some insight into the interrelationships):

Dennis Burke, while he served as the Majority Counsel for the Senate Judiciary Committee is credited (along with Rahm Emmanuel, then senior advisor to President Clinton) as being the political architects of the 1994 Assault Weapons Ban. With Gore's loss in 2000, Burke moved to become Chief Deputy AG in Arizona under State Attorney General Janet Napolitano. When Napolitano became Arizona Governor, Burke became her Chief of Staff. There he was intimately involved with her cross-border anti-drug and gun trafficking initiatives including the expansion of eTrace into Mexico. In 2009 of course Napolitano became Obama's Secretary of the Department of Homeland Security and Burke came with her to DC, becoming a "Senior Advisor" to the Secretary.

On Wednesday, September 16, 2009, Burke was sworn in as the United States Attorney for the District of Arizona.

That is the moment Fast and Furious began.

Burke resigned August 30, 2011 after it became known that he personally ordered retaliation against the initial ATF Agents who went public with the details of Fast and Furious. His underling, Chief of the Criminal Division, AUSA Cunningham has resigned, refused to testify to House Oversight and invoked the 5th.

To add insult to murder, the Terry case has been sealed . . . Now who would have gone to a federal judge for that?

When the layers of this onion are peeled back, the real operational base of command for this fiasco / scandal will be DHS/NSC.

AG Holder may very well be as disconnected and incompetent as he claims.

But again, you're not proving causation here.

The same qualifications you say point to Burke as being appointed as part of a conspiracy are also the qualifications that would have made him best suited for the job of Arizona attorney general in the first place, and the fact that he served under Napolitiano would have moved him up the list without any conspiracy in place at all, favoritism and nepotism being a factor in most job placements.

The man was stupid for retaliating against as whistle blower, but not if the whistle blower in question was giving out sensitive information on an ongoing criminal investigation to the public, which is exactly what happened, endangering the investigation and the lives of the agents involved.

Now the Terry case being sealed is most probably due to the fact that they want to keep any fugitive defendants from knowing about the case.

This story, from the Arizona Daily Star, makes that seem likely to be the case.

Sealing of Brian Terry murder case not likely part of cover-up, experts say (updated)

Perhaps the most typical reason for sealing cases is to keep fugitive defendants from knowing about the case, agreed former federal prosecutors Sean Chapman and John Leader, and longtime federal-court defense practitioner Walter Nash. None of them have a role in the case against Terry's alleged killers.

"There are all sorts of different reasons to seal a case," Chapman said. "The most common one is that there can be outstanding defendants that haven’t been arrested yet. The idea is that you don’t want to tip them off."

In the indictment, it appeared two names were blacked out, though the names could be nicknames or other identifiers.

 

[logical4u]

Yeah I hear ya, but heres another take. When every last anchor on FoxNews and their guests all say the word "Watergate" on the same day, Im not trusting that assessment.

Yes of course, it's all Fox News' fault your corrupt miscreant Eric Holder murdered Brian Terry. Of course.

First off Holder murdered no one dumbass. The people that pulled the trigger did the murdering. Following your stupid logic, anyone who sold a gun that was used to kill someone is then a murderer. That is NOT the case.

Second, FoxNews is spreading thus whole "Obamas watergate" nonsense…and it's utter bullshit. Bush lost guns isn't this exact same tactic and they give him a pass, therefore it's partisan rhetoric. Nothing more.

And lastly, get your head out of your ass, Lino. You can't keep following the party line and then claim allegiance to a guy who is barely in the party.

What! No "Holder lied", "people died" chant? Ohhh, that's right, its okay when libs do it.

 

[Vidi]

Yes of course, it's all Fox News' fault your corrupt miscreant Eric Holder murdered Brian Terry. Of course.

First off Holder murdered no one dumbass. The people that pulled the trigger did the murdering. Following your stupid logic, anyone who sold a gun that was used to kill someone is then a murderer. That is NOT the case.

Second, FoxNews is spreading thus whole "Obamas watergate" nonsense…and it's utter bullshit. Bush lost guns isn't this exact same tactic and they give him a pass, therefore it's partisan rhetoric. Nothing more.

And lastly, get your head out of your ass, Lino. You can't keep following the party line and then claim allegiance to a guy who is barely in the party.

What! No "Holder lied", "people died" chant? Ohhh, that's right, its okay when libs do it.

In order for that chant to actually make sense, Holder would have had to have lied BEFORE the murder took place. You see in the english language we have CAUSE BEFORE EFFECT.

So, the chant should be "People died, Holder lied." in order for it to be accurate.

And please try to pay attention, Ive not ONCE said Holder didnt lie. I said he didnt murder anyone, which he didnt...unless of course youre going to say that People dont kill people, guns do?

Hold their feet to the fire and Ill back you, but at least let it be the fire they ACTUALLY set, not some made up bullshit.

 

[Unkotare]

You see in the english[sic] language we have CAUSE BEFORE EFFECT.

That would be a matter of logic, not language. And it's the English language, you idiot.

 

[GoneBezerk]

Liberals continuing to defend this show is proof they are idiots and scum.

Wiretaps show the plan let the guns get moved across the border without being tracked. Hundreds of Mexicans got killed and a US border agent got killed.

So how the hell is this less worse than some "secret" tapes of Democraps planning their campaign against Nixon??? You are just fucking insane.

 

[Vidi]

You see in the english[sic] language we have CAUSE BEFORE EFFECT.

That would be a matter of logic, not language. And it's the English language, you idiot.

aww did I make a typo? better than the flaw in your logic. One is a tick of the fingers the other a tick of your brainpower...or lack thereof.

 

[Vidi]

Liberals continuing to defend this show is proof they are idiots and scum.

Wiretaps show the plan let the guns get moved across the border without being tracked. Hundreds of Mexicans got killed and a US border agent got killed.

So how the hell is this less worse than some "secret" tapes of Democraps planning their campaign against Nixon??? You are just fucking insane.

no insanity is giving in to the conspiracy theories that this was more than it was...a major fuck up.

Hey, you want Holder gone? So do I. He should resign, in my opinion.

Its the ridiculous claims that this was all done to attack the 2nd amendment Im railing against.

 

[GoneBezerk]

Uh, he lied to Congress in an official letter and he lied under oath in front of Congress......they are hiding crimes.

One has to be an idiot to not see Holder and Obamination are criminals in this case.

Obamination claimed he had nothing to do with it, but at the last minute steps in and says it deals with internal Executive messages.....uh he just committed a crime by lying to Congress and the American public.

FYI...there are over 100,000 documents involved and Holder only handed over around 8,000 with blacked out paragraphs. you are fucking clueless.

Liberals continuing to defend this show is proof they are idiots and scum.

Wiretaps show the plan let the guns get moved across the border without being tracked. Hundreds of Mexicans got killed and a US border agent got killed.

So how the hell is this less worse than some "secret" tapes of Democraps planning their campaign against Nixon??? You are just fucking insane.

no insanity is giving in to the conspiracy theories that this was more than it was...a major fuck up.

Hey, you want Holder gone? So do I. He should resign, in my opinion.

Its the ridiculous claims that this was all done to attack the 2nd amendment Im railing against.

 

[Unkotare]

You see in the english[sic] language we have CAUSE BEFORE EFFECT.

That would be a matter of logic, not language. And it's the English language, you idiot.

aww did I make a typo?

No, you made an error.

 

[thanatos144]

Why do you liberal cover for this administration?????? Are you truly this devoid of civic pride???? Do you think it is okay for border agents to be killed as long as Holder doesn't have to hand over documents????? If there is nothing to hide then why are they hiding it? Why do you AMERICAN liberals allow any one in YOUR government to hide from showing the proof about this? Do you hate republicans so much that the death of a man means so little?

 

[Vidi]

That would be a matter of logic, not language. And it's the English language, you idiot.

aww did I make a typo?

No, you made an error.

The error as always is with your logic. The best you have is I miss hitting shift while typing. You lose...again.

 

[Vidi]

Uh, he lied to Congress in an official letter and he lied under oath in front of Congress......they are hiding crimes.

One has to be an idiot to not see Holder and Obamination are criminals in this case.

Obamination claimed he had nothing to do with it, but at the last minute steps in and says it deals with internal Executive messages.....uh he just committed a crime by lying to Congress and the American public.

FYI...there are over 100,000 documents involved and Holder only handed over around 8,000 with blacked out paragraphs. you are fucking clueless.

Liberals continuing to defend this show is proof they are idiots and scum.

Wiretaps show the plan let the guns get moved across the border without being tracked. Hundreds of Mexicans got killed and a US border agent got killed.

So how the hell is this less worse than some "secret" tapes of Democraps planning their campaign against Nixon??? You are just fucking insane.

no insanity is giving in to the conspiracy theories that this was more than it was...a major fuck up.

Hey, you want Holder gone? So do I. He should resign, in my opinion.

Its the ridiculous claims that this was all done to attack the 2nd amendment Im railing against.

To answer your original question...how the hell is this "less worse" ( love the command of the language there btw ) than Watergate...Fast and Furious ( if you believe Holder ) was done intending to bring criminals to justice. Watergate was commited to commit fraud on the American public.

Now IF unrefutable evidence is found that the administration did all of this to actually attack the 2nd amendment, Ill join your side in the outrage. But lacking that evidence, I refuse to fall for the chicken little tactics that come from the NRA every damned election cycle.

 

[Unkotare]

aww did I make a typo?

No, you made an error.

The error as always is with your logic.

How so?

 

[Vidi]

No, you made an error.

The error as always is with your logic.

How so?

See the other thread we are arguing in for your answer. Youve made the same mistake in both.

 

[Unkotare]

The error as always is with your logic.

How so?

See the other thread we are arguing in for your answer. Youve made the same mistake in both.

You made an accusation. Support it or crawl away with your tail between your legs.

 

[Vidi]

How so?

See the other thread we are arguing in for your answer. Youve made the same mistake in both.

You made an accusation. Support it or crawl away with your tail between your legs.

The more you thump your chest, the more you look like the idiot you are. ou didged away from the point over a capitalization issue. LOL moron. Walking away from stupid isnt crawling away its knowing youve already won. So go ahead bang your head into the wall for all the good it will do you.