Do You Think The Fast & Furious Scandal Is Worse Than Watergate Scandal?

[Vidi]

Most of Holder's weapons are still not accounted for. More will be slaughtered with his weapons. This awful nightmare will go on for a very long time.

You really are a one-trick pony aren't ya?

Yes. He really is.

 

[bobgnote]

Most of Holder's weapons are still not accounted for. More will be slaughtered with his weapons. This awful nightmare will go on for a very long time.

It's been a few pages, since somebody suggested we need to end the drug war.

Sooooo, if the fucking DRUG WAR ends, snafu'd sting ops need never happen, IN THE FIRST PLACE! We can grow industrial hemp, switchgrass, algae, and have a green energy policy, which we should have had, back when Carter was President, but for damn sure we should have had this, by 2009, instead of Obamneycare and Op.Fast and Furious.

I wonder if black Obamney will show signs, of learning any lessons, in term 2?

 

[Too Tall]

Most of Holder's weapons are still not accounted for. More will be slaughtered with his weapons. This awful nightmare will go on for a very long time.

You really are a one-trick pony aren't ya?

Yes. He really is.

I agree. After all out of the 2000 assault rifles that were sold to foreign criminals, I will bet we have recovered 10, maybe 12. We know of two that were probably used to kill Agent Terry.

 

[Vidi]

You really are a one-trick pony aren't ya?

Yes. He really is.

I agree. After all out of the 2000 assault rifles that were sold to foreign criminals, I will bet we have recovered 10, maybe 12. We know of two that were probably used to kill Agent Terry.

And for that someone should be held accountable.

That doesnt however mean it should be thrown around like a political football by the right as "proof" of anything other than what it was...a stupid and bad operation that NEVER should have happened.

 

[Too Tall]

Yes. He really is.

I agree. After all out of the 2000 assault rifles that were sold to foreign criminals, I will bet we have recovered 10, maybe 12. We know of two that were probably used to kill Agent Terry.

And for that someone should be held accountable.

That doesnt however mean it should be thrown around like a political football by the right as "proof" of anything other than what it was...a stupid and bad operation that NEVER should have happened.

Have you ever heard the word 'stonewalling?" That is what Holder and Obama are doing. Just as was asked of Nixon, what did the President/A/G know and when did they know it.

 

[logical4u]

The Fortune magazine article says everything anyone needs to know about the subject. This whole thing is a witch hunt.

so..NO...it's not worse than watergate. Republicans have been trying to get out of the shadow of that shit for decades...and it's shameful how they try.

And the democrats, constantly "embrace" corruption. Speaking of "on subject". Here you have the federal gov't coercing gun shops into selling weapons to people they are required to report and encouraged to refuse sales with people that are "questionable", and you, like a faithful little Jim Jones follower, drinks the source of koolaid that Jim Jones tells you is "right", while refusing to even look at other sources. Just another Obama zombie, chanting what you are told. Ignore the facts, if they do not make you "feel" empowered/strong/good about Obama/good about the democrat leadership/vindictive/hateful/petty or envious.

 

[logical4u]

Libs, too funny, all talking about "respect the President" (kiss his ....), and then turn around and mock the people in the gov't you do not like. Wonder how soon you will be telling us, to "give in" or "compromise" (surrender) to/with the President? Another example of libs hatred and smallness.

 

[Abatis]

I'm going to reply in a couple parts here, I have limited time today (and I want to reach the link threshold ) . . . Thanks for the compliments.

However, while I do see a whole lot of incompetence going on in everything you posted, I do not see definitive evidence of either criminal activity on the part of government officials, or of a conspiracy on the part of government officials.

You just aren't giving this crowd enough credit.

Let's put it this way . . .

If one was going to put into action a plan to grease the path of weapons smuggling "under the radar" (which is how Obama told Sarah Brady he was working on gun control) to effect a crisis intended to sway public opinion to call for ATF to enact regional regulations (as a worst case outcome i.e., Demand Letter 3) or much, much better, the reenactment of an even more encompassing national Assault Weapons Ban . . .

No better people could have been chosen to be in the governmental command structure with both the required political allegiance and knowledge of the workings of the region, to see this agenda is acted on and brought to completion.

Let's look at just one link in the chain . . . (which gives some insight into the interrelationships):

Dennis Burke, while he served as the Majority Counsel for the Senate Judiciary Committee is credited (along with Rahm Emmanuel, then senior advisor to President Clinton) as being the political architects of the 1994 Assault Weapons Ban. With Gore's loss in 2000, Burke moved to become Chief Deputy AG in Arizona under State Attorney General Janet Napolitano. When Napolitano became Arizona Governor, Burke became her Chief of Staff. There he was intimately involved with her cross-border anti-drug and gun trafficking initiatives including the expansion of eTrace into Mexico. In 2009 of course Napolitano became Obama's Secretary of the Department of Homeland Security and Burke came with her to DC, becoming a "Senior Advisor" to the Secretary.

On Wednesday, September 16, 2009, Burke was sworn in as the United States Attorney for the District of Arizona.

That is the moment Fast and Furious began.

Burke resigned August 30, 2011 after it became known that he personally ordered retaliation against the initial ATF Agents who went public with the details of Fast and Furious. His underling, Chief of the Criminal Division, AUSA Cunningham has resigned, refused to testify to House Oversight and invoked the 5th.

To add insult to murder, the Terry case has been sealed . . . Now who would have gone to a federal judge for that?

When the layers of this onion are peeled back, the real operational base of command for this fiasco / scandal will be DHS/NSC.

AG Holder may very well be as disconnected and incompetent as he claims.

 

[Vidi]

I agree. After all out of the 2000 assault rifles that were sold to foreign criminals, I will bet we have recovered 10, maybe 12. We know of two that were probably used to kill Agent Terry.

And for that someone should be held accountable.

That doesnt however mean it should be thrown around like a political football by the right as "proof" of anything other than what it was...a stupid and bad operation that NEVER should have happened.

Have you ever heard the word 'stonewalling?" That is what Holder and Obama are doing. Just as was asked of Nixon, what did the President/A/G know and when did they know it.

Yeah I hear ya, but heres another take. When every last anchor on FoxNews and their guests all say the word "Watergate" on the same day, Im not trusting that assessment.

 

[Abatis]

I agree that F&F was rife with incompetence, and that, combined with the weakness of the laws themselves, both local and federal, created a hell of a mess.

It wasn't incompetence. It was a willful operation that the players knew they had to conceal and camouflage.

ATF's own agents in Mexico were kept in the dark and in late 2009 when this unimpeded secret flood of guns began flowing into Mexico the agents in Mexico began noticing a corresponding uptick in the number of weapons recovered in Mexico (at crime scenes).

Running these guns through eTrace as they always did, the ATF agents in Mexico began receiving nearly instant results. Normally, traces done on recovered guns can take a week or more . . . this was unusual. Reason why? These guns, as soon as they were sold, were placed in the "Suspect Gun Database" by the agents running Fast and Furious.

Of course these ATF agents in Mexico were saying WTF is going on here?

.

"ATF personnel in Mexico called the Phoenix Field Division to
notify them of what was occurring. The response from
Phoenix was that everything was under control and not to
worry about the investigation. Because the guns were in the
Suspect Gun Database, the case agent in Phoenix received
notice of trace requests.

The case agent could limit the information that other ATF
officials would receive to merely a notice that the trace results
were "delayed," which effectively kept ATF personnel in Mexico
out of the loop. . . . These holds prevented ATF personnel in
Mexico from discovering the origin of the recovered guns. . . . ."​

.

The agents in Mexico already were getting very concerned before they were shut out; what they were seeing just did not make any sense (from a "law enforcement" standpoint).

We are taking a bit over two months in . . .

.

"Even though large recoveries were taking place in Mexico,
with the awareness of senior ATF officials in both Phoenix
and Washington D.C, ATF officials in Mexico did not have
the full picture. What they were able to piece together based
on several large weapons seizures made them extremely nervous.

B. The Naco, Mexico Recovery

The first large recovery of weapons in Mexico linked to
Operation Fast and Furious occurred on November 20,2009,
in Naco, Sonora - located on the U.S/Mexico border.

All of the 42 weapons recovered in Naco traced back to
Operation Fast and Furious straw purchasers. Forty-one of
these weapons were AK-47 rifles and one was a Beowulf
.50 caliber rifle. Twenty of the weapons in this recovery were
reported on multiple sales summaries by ATF, and these weapons
had a "time-to-crime" of just one day.

Within a span of 24 hours, a straw purchaser bought guns at a
gun store in Arizona and facilitated their transport to Naco, Mexico
with the intent of delivering the guns to the Sinaloa cartel.

Mexican authorities arrested the person transporting these
weapons, a 21-year old female. Mexican authorities interviewed
her along with her brother, who was also in the vehicle. According
to an official in ATF's Office of Strategic Information and Intelligence
(OSH), the female suspect told law enforcement that she intended
to transport the weapons straight to the Sinaloa cartel.

From the very first recovery of weapons ATF officials knew
that drug trafficking organizations (DTOs) were using these
straw purchasers. "​

Large recoveries continued in the following couple weeks.

"These weapons recoveries did not occur in a vacuum.
Upon learning of the recoveries, analysts in ATF's Office of Strategic
Information and Intelligence (OSII) in Washington, D.C. attempted to
piece together fragments of information to report up the chain of
command. According to ATF personnel, every Tuesday morning OSH
holds a briefing for the field operations staff to share and discuss
information about ongoing ATF cases. Typically, the four Deputy
Assistant Directors for Field Operations attend. Additionally, Mark
Chait, the Assistant Director for Field Operations, often attends.
Occasionally, Deputy Director William Hoover and Acting Director
Kenneth Melson attend these briefings.

OSH first briefed on Operation Fast and Furious on Tuesday
December 8, 2009, including the Naco recovery. The following week,
OSH briefed the Mexicalli recovery. Subsequent briefings covered
other recoveries that had occurred in the: United States. The
magnitude of the Operation Fast and Furious investigation quickly
became apparent to senior ATF officials. "​

So, that's just a little snippet of what Congress knew a year ago about the first three months of Fast and Furious. . .

And people think Congress is just on a witch hunt?

Quotes from:
The Department of Justice's Operation Fast and Furious: Fueling Cartel Violence
JOINT STAFF REPORT
July 26, 2011
pgs 16, 17 & 19

As entered into the Congressional Record, June 28, 2011 pages H4258, H4259 & H4261
(footnotes removed)

 

[paulitician]

And for that someone should be held accountable.

That doesnt however mean it should be thrown around like a political football by the right as "proof" of anything other than what it was...a stupid and bad operation that NEVER should have happened.

Have you ever heard the word 'stonewalling?" That is what Holder and Obama are doing. Just as was asked of Nixon, what did the President/A/G know and when did they know it.

Yeah I hear ya, but heres another take. When every last anchor on FoxNews and their guests all say the word "Watergate" on the same day, Im not trusting that assessment.

Yes of course, it's all Fox News' fault your corrupt miscreant Eric Holder murdered Brian Terry. Of course.

 

[Vidi]

Have you ever heard the word 'stonewalling?" That is what Holder and Obama are doing. Just as was asked of Nixon, what did the President/A/G know and when did they know it.

Yeah I hear ya, but heres another take. When every last anchor on FoxNews and their guests all say the word "Watergate" on the same day, Im not trusting that assessment.

Yes of course, it's all Fox News' fault your corrupt miscreant Eric Holder murdered Brian Terry. Of course.

First off Holder murdered no one dumbass. The people that pulled the trigger did the murdering. Following your stupid logic, anyone who sold a gun that was used to kill someone is then a murderer. That is NOT the case.

Second, FoxNews is spreading thus whole "Obamas watergate" nonsense…and it's utter bullshit. Bush lost guns isn't this exact same tactic and they give him a pass, therefore it's partisan rhetoric. Nothing more.

And lastly, get your head out of your ass, Lino. You can't keep following the party line and then claim allegiance to a guy who is barely in the party.

 

[Vidi]

I'm going to reply in a couple parts here, I have limited time today (and I want to reach the link threshold ) . . . Thanks for the compliments.

However, while I do see a whole lot of incompetence going on in everything you posted, I do not see definitive evidence of either criminal activity on the part of government officials, or of a conspiracy on the part of government officials.

You just aren't giving this crowd enough credit.

Let's put it this way . . .

If one was going to put into action a plan to grease the path of weapons smuggling "under the radar" (which is how Obama told Sarah Brady he was working on gun control) to effect a crisis intended to sway public opinion to call for ATF to enact regional regulations (as a worst case outcome i.e., Demand Letter 3) or much, much better, the reenactment of an even more encompassing national Assault Weapons Ban . . .

No better people could have been chosen to be in the governmental command structure with both the required political allegiance and knowledge of the workings of the region, to see this agenda is acted on and brought to completion.

Let's look at just one link in the chain . . . (which gives some insight into the interrelationships):

Dennis Burke, while he served as the Majority Counsel for the Senate Judiciary Committee is credited (along with Rahm Emmanuel, then senior advisor to President Clinton) as being the political architects of the 1994 Assault Weapons Ban. With Gore's loss in 2000, Burke moved to become Chief Deputy AG in Arizona under State Attorney General Janet Napolitano. When Napolitano became Arizona Governor, Burke became her Chief of Staff. There he was intimately involved with her cross-border anti-drug and gun trafficking initiatives including the expansion of eTrace into Mexico. In 2009 of course Napolitano became Obama's Secretary of the Department of Homeland Security and Burke came with her to DC, becoming a "Senior Advisor" to the Secretary.

On Wednesday, September 16, 2009, Burke was sworn in as the United States Attorney for the District of Arizona.

That is the moment Fast and Furious began.

Burke resigned August 30, 2011 after it became known that he personally ordered retaliation against the initial ATF Agents who went public with the details of Fast and Furious. His underling, Chief of the Criminal Division, AUSA Cunningham has resigned, refused to testify to House Oversight and invoked the 5th.

To add insult to murder, the Terry case has been sealed . . . Now who would have gone to a federal judge for that?

When the layers of this onion are peeled back, the real operational base of command for this fiasco / scandal will be DHS/NSC.

AG Holder may very well be as disconnected and incompetent as he claims.

You're making a lot of unprovable assumptions to reach into the conspiracy butters bag there.

Was 9/11 an inside job,too? The moon landing faked as well? And JFK was killed by the Comedian firing from the grassy knoll?

 

[Abatis]

You're making a lot of unprovable assumptions to reach into the conspiracy butters bag there.

Was 9/11 an inside job,too? The moon landing faked as well? And JFK was killed by the Comedian firing from the grassy knoll?

Are you claiming then, that airplanes were not flown into buildings on 9/11/01 or that NASA never existed and JFK is alive and well and living in a little oceanfront shack on Martha's Vineyard?

The position that there's nothing to investigate is lot harder to swallow than the one that says highly political people in positions of near absolute (and according to you unquestionable) power would act to advance agendas close to their hearts.

It is your blind belief of the Sergeant Schultz defense that is

 

[Vidi]

You're making a lot of unprovable assumptions to reach into the conspiracy butters bag there.

Was 9/11 an inside job,too? The moon landing faked as well? And JFK was killed by the Comedian firing from the grassy knoll?

Are you claiming then, that airplanes were not flown into buildings on 9/11/01 or that NASA never existed and JFK is alive and well and living in a little oceanfront shack on Martha's Vineyard?

The position that there's nothing to investigate is lot harder to swallow than the one that says highly political people in positions of near absolute (and according to you unquestionable) power would act to advance agendas close to their hearts.

It is your blind belief of the Sergeant Schultz defense that is

Of course there's something to investigate. But to make the conspiracy theory nutter claims that this was all done to infringe upon our 2nd amendment rights is

Stick with the facts you can back up not the bullshit speculation based on one vague whisper

 

[MarcATL]

The CON$ never, never, never learn....the keep reaching, reaching and overreaching. Every. single. time.

Tsk, tsk, tsk.

*SMH*

 

[Dr.Drock]

The CON$ never, never, never learn....the keep reaching, reaching and overreaching. Every. single. time.

Tsk, tsk, tsk.

*SMH*

Lol I can only dream of what your reaction would if Bush were in office now.

You'd be shaking both fists at your monitor and typing with your toes.

 

[MarcATL]

The CON$ never, never, never learn....the keep reaching, reaching and overreaching. Every. single. time.

Tsk, tsk, tsk.

*SMH*

Lol I can only dream of what your reaction would if Bush were in office now.

You'd be shaking both fists at your monitor and typing with your toes.

WhatchutawkinboutWillis...!?!?!

I was already doing that DURING the Bush Regime.


lol

 

[Dr.Drock]

The CON$ never, never, never learn....the keep reaching, reaching and overreaching. Every. single. time.

Tsk, tsk, tsk.

*SMH*

Lol I can only dream of what your reaction would if Bush were in office now.

You'd be shaking both fists at your monitor and typing with your toes.

WhatchutawkinboutWillis...!?!?!

I was already doing that DURING the Bush Regime.


lol

Me too, and since all his policies have continued, so has my fist shaking.

 

[Vidi]

The CON$ never, never, never learn....the keep reaching, reaching and overreaching. Every. single. time.

Tsk, tsk, tsk.

*SMH*

And winning.

Until the Dems stop being such pussies, the Cons will continue. After all, why should they change whats working for them?